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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-27, 03:58

Some possible 14/16” MBP-related news…Next-gen M2 chip “mass production” underway.

Stuff is be coming. Exciting year, 2021.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-04-27, 04:17

A few possibilities:
  • despite the name, this chip isn't as low-end as the M1 was, and adds features like four (say) monitors, four Thunderbolt ports, and eGPU support (I'm not sure if this one is even a hardware limitation or simply a software feature waiting to be ported). Meanwhile, the current M1 Macs stay on the M1 for a while, and perhaps move downward in price, slightly.
  • the rumor is slightly inaccurate/incomplete, in that the real story is that this is a whole family of M2 CPUs, e.g. M2L, M2, M2X.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-28, 12:31

After seeing that new iMac, I no longer buy the rumor of the card slot, HDMI port, etc. returning to a new, redesigned MacBook Pro. The ports already there would support all those functions, right (with the appropriate dongle/adaptor), right? It just doesn't seem very 2021 Apple to go back and ad large "legacy" type ports that not all users may need or want. Provide four(?) of the ports already in use, plus a single audio/headphone port (or will they even do that), and just let the so-called "pro" user purchase exactly what they want in the way of adaptors to use with the hardware specific to them.

Makes more sense in both manufacturing and logistics. Apple would never, unless the entire sides (both) are littered with various ports, accommodate every type of "pro" user out there and what they made need for their specific pursuits (photography, video, etc.). But provide four powerful ports than can be anything. Because I know people who have older MacBook Pros with HDMI, card slot, etc. and have never once touched them. Why saddle an otherwise sleek machine with ports that may not appeal to, or be used by, many users? Provide the capability, keep the machine itself sleek and uncluttered, and, for those who require HDMI, card slots, USB A, DVI this, VGA that and all the rest...they have options to get exactly what they need/want. But many, like me, don't require any add-ons to do what they do, so they just get to enjoy a nice, uncluttered notebook without a bunch of wasted, dust-collecting holes in the side.

I think the "Pro" in MacBook Pro, on this next go-around, is hinging on performance, vs. "provide every possible I/O solution in existence, including the old stuff we jettisoned some time ago". You simply can't predict/know all the devices and connections any 5-10 "pro" users may require. So don't. Provide the Thunderbolt and let them figure out what they need. They're "professionals", spending $1,799(?)+ on their new high-end MacBook Pro...they're completely capable of knowing what it is they use/need in the way of add-ons and peripherals.

So I just picture these upcoming, redesigned MacBook Pros as sleek/thin as possible (knowing they can't paint themselves into unnecessary thermal corners, so no need to go Jony thin at this point), but just a very understated, distilled-down-to-all-it-can-be (which it almost already kinda is) form. I do think that Touch Bar is a goner because it seemed half-baked/unasked-for to begin with, and solved next to nothing). So unless they've figured out something truly amazing/revolutionary to do with that thing, I see the hardware F keys coming back. Redesigned/re-mapped, likely, to do 2021-and-beyond tasks for Big Sur-and-beyond features, but that's it.

And with the same level of bezel decrease we just saw in the new iMac (it seemed to go about by almost half, compared to the 21.5" model), that tells me a 14" MacBook will probably be coming in a body the same size as the current 13" models (because those are actually 13.3" displays, rounded down to a more roll-off-the-tongue "13-inch"). They wouldn't have to go too far up at all in size (even to just 13.7" or something) to call the new models "14-inch" (the new 24" iMac, you'll notice all over Apple.com, is accompanied with an asterisk disclaimer stating that the display is actually 23.5" diagonally, just two inches larger than the model it replaced). But "24" sounds much nicer, doesn't it? So Apple certainly doesn't have to go to a larger body at all. The can just go up 1/2" or so, to anything over the ~13.7" range and comfortably/legally call it "the new 14-inch MacBook Pro".

Because they just did it on their iMac and nobody's squawking or raising a fuss.

That's a bezel trick/tweak, making all that black go away and allowing for a slightly larger display. Especially if the corner radius is decreased a bit. I've always thought it was quite large/swoopy than necessary. Remember how tight and squared-off (but still slightly rounded) the Titanium PowerBook G4 was? It looked like a nice chunk of something.

Besides, I really don't think anyone's hinging their hopes/plans on a <1" screen size bump...it's that second round of AS and the higher RAM ceilings and performance bumps that many are waiting for. Any screen size increase, especially going from 13.3 to 13.6+" won't really be noticeable anyway (it'll just be new and different in the marketing, separating it from previous models). It lets them call it a 14" MacBook Pro, after 15 years of only a "13-inch" existing.

This model, the true replacement to the existing $1,799+ Intel 13" MacBook Pro, is the most interesting to me in all of Apple's lineup. It has the potential to be the most "bang for the buck" Mac, and the "most power in a small package" offering they have. That'll be a fun, interesting event/unveiling.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-04-28 at 13:03.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-04-28, 16:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
After seeing that new iMac, I no longer buy the rumor of the card slot, HDMI port, etc. returning to a new, redesigned MacBook Pro. The ports already there would support all those functions, right (with the appropriate dongle/adaptor), right? It just doesn't seem very 2021 Apple to go back and ad large "legacy" type ports that not all users may need or want. Provide four(?) of the ports already in use, plus a single audio/headphone port (or will they even do that), and just let the so-called "pro" user purchase exactly what they want in the way of adaptors to use with the hardware specific to them.
[ Yes, you can go from the four Thunderbolt port to virtually any port, and I think getting some kind of hub/dock for this is a good idea anyway. Have a relatively lightweight laptop on the go, and your desk setup ready at home and/or at work. It can even include power, so just one cable to plug in. Kind of like the ol' PowerBook Duo setup.

But. Even leaving aside cost (it's essentially another $80-300 on top of the already pricy laptop), this isn't great on the go. What if you're on the train and just want to plug in an SD card real quick? What if you're presenting at a client's and want to hook up to the projector via HDMI? There goes another $50-100 for a portable dongle that has the essentials. And the embarrassing moment where you forget to bring it with you will happen sooner or later. ]

Now, back to the M1 and the rumors. I don't think the iMac is that much of an indication here, for two reasons: one, it's clearly the low-end model, with some severe limitations (just 16 GiB RAM max, just one external display, no eGPU, just two Thunderbolt ports). I imagine Apple's workhorse laptop, the 16-inch MBP, will have few or none of those restrictions.

And two, while this is entirely a choice of Apple's own doing, many ports wouldn't fit in the iMac; it simply isn't thick enough. They sort of hacked the headphone jack by putting it on the side (which they should've done all along, TBH). It'll be interesting to see what they do on bigger iMacs. Do they get more side ports? (Those… kind of have downsides, too. Rather awkward to permanently have stuff hanging out of there.) Are they significantly thicker and therefore can fit deeper ports on the back? (Doesn't sound plausible to me.) Either way: the MBP doesn't have those problems. It has all its ports on the side anyway (going all the way back to the 2003 aluminum PowerBooks, and even further back to the 2001 white iBook), which works better than it would on the iMac, because the device is flat to the surface.

All of which is to say: they would've had to do a lot to accommodate more ports on this iMac design, but they wouldn't on the MBP. SD probably fits already. Make it just a tad thicker, and HDMI also fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Apple would never, unless the entire sides (both) are littered with various ports, accommodate every type of "pro" user out there and what they made need for their specific pursuits (photography, video, etc.).

But provide four powerful ports than can be anything. Because I know people who have older MacBook Pros with HDMI, card slot, etc. and have never once touched them. Why saddle an otherwise sleek machine with ports that may not appeal to, or be used by, many users? Provide the capability, keep the machine itself sleek and uncluttered, and, for those who require HDMI, card slots, USB A, DVI this, VGA that and all the rest...they have options to get exactly what they need/want.
Absolutely, but Apple can do (and almost certainly has done) research on this and will have noticed that 1) almost nobody needs DVI these days (OTOH, I'm literally reading this on a creaky old DVI display); 2) some projectors are still VGA-only, but that has become rare. Ethernet would be very nice, but that wouldn't fit on the 2012 Retina design, much less the 2016 Touch Bar design, so that ain't happening. That leaves HDMI, SD (CF is too niche) and USB-A, and I wouldn't be shocked to see some of those make a return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I think the "Pro" in MacBook Pro, on this next go-around, is hinging on performance, vs. "provide every possible I/O solution in existence, including the old stuff we jettisoned some time ago". You simply can't predict/know all the devices and connections any 5-10 "pro" users may require. So don't. Provide the Thunderbolt and let them figure out what they need. They're "professionals", spending $1,799(?)+ on their new high-end MacBook Pro...they're completely capable of knowing what it is they use/need in the way of add-ons and peripherals.
The problem is this was clearly their strategy for the 2016 MBP, and… it was met with a rather lukewarm reception. Very, very few people said that this was the best MBP of all time. Between the Touch Bar, the butterfly keyboard, the lack of port choices, and some other decisions, it felt like a misstep to many. (Intel screwing up their CPUs in that era didn't help.)

It's hard to quantify, but it seems like, to many, the previous 2012 Retina generation is regarded as simply better, and while it would be very un-Apple-like to take a step back, they have done exactly that with the keyboard, and maybe they will with the ports as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
(the new 24" iMac, you'll notice all over Apple.com, is accompanied with an asterisk disclaimer stating that the display is actually 23.5" diagonally, just two inches larger than the model it replaced). But "24" sounds much nicer, doesn't it?
I've always found it odd that they call it the 12.9-inch iPad Pro. Why? Literally nobody would complain if they just round up. 11-inch iPad Pro; 13-inch iPad Pro. Done and done.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-28, 16:21

Yeah, I always wonder about that too. They have plenty of products where they round up or down to get a nice, clean screen size figure. That 12.9" thing just always makes me chuckle...it's so close to 13, just call it that already. Keeping that 12.9 makes it sound like they're about to come out with a 12.8" model, and maybe a 13.1", and a 12.6", etc., and they have to get really specific in their packaging/marketing. In a world where there is nothing else in that 12-13" space, 12.9" just seems a little unnecessary, for sure.

I know all the reasons for including those ports. I just don't think Apple cares.

But we'll see. I think this redesign we're getting this year will be sticking around for a good while, so I'm betting whatever we see soon is how it's going to stay.

But you're right...uncharacteristically, they did fix those goofy keyboards (finally, after a thousand years).

I think the departure of a certain person/mindset had as much to do with that as anything. The pride (arrogance?) that prevents folks from copping to a bad idea/design is strong. They may have to couch it in other terms/reasons, but, big picture, that butterfly keyboard came up short. They went back (for the most part) to what worked great before.

That was the most encouraging thing I've seen from them in ages. They were obviously listening (or just sick of all the whining, replacements, repair programs, etc.).

I like that they seem open to fixing definite, unasked-for goofs on their end.

I just don't know if they'd consider anything other than four Thunderbolt ports a "goof". And if they put on HDMI and an SD, then you're going to get a thousand users come out of the woodwork demanding even more niche, specialized ports for their profession/workflow.

I just think Apple can eliminate any "pick and choose" hassles and make it easy. It'll be a small annoyance to some, but everything Apple does is a small annoyance to somebody, somewhere. This is the kind of thing that Steve would get up on stage and sell as a good thing, somehow. And for those who weren't convinced, he just wouldn't give a shit.

I kinda miss that part of Apple sometimes. Nobody's standing up there making me want to sell body parts to buy anything. That hasn't been the case in, literally, a decade now. They lost their master showman and the Great Convincer, and nobody's even come close to filling that role. There really was an element of "you gotta have this, and you know you do...even if you can't fully state why just yet" that is absolutely missing from Tim & Co. You can't learn or practice that sort of thing, for sure. You just have it or you don't, and that's what I've come to miss more than anything. It's just stuff now. Good stuff, even great at times. But none of it has meant much to me because it didn't have that carnival barker in a turtleneck doing all he could to make it look like something you couldn't be without.

That's what Apple has been lacking/missing, for 10 years now. And it's bittersweet when you think back on the best of those years.

Another thing I remember, years back, when Apple would actually include a few useful adapters in the box of their notebooks? This might've even been the PowerBook G4 days, but I remember that some basic little white plastic adaptors/dongles would be in the box. While that goes against everything Apple seems to stand for now, it would be cool if they just tossed in an HDMI and card slot dongle. Design something, in-house, that is a card slot, HDMI, USB A(?) and include it in 14" and 16" MacBook Pro packaging. A "meet halfway" gesture, if nothing else. Still isn't perfect and ideal, but if they decide not to go back to those things built into the sides of the machines, there's wiggle room to consider.

"Yes, we're stripped all the useful ports out you'd love to have. But we're not going to make you buy adaptors for these 2-3 common ones. You're welcome".





Talk about a pipe dream.

The reason they're sitting on $959,345,435,349,544,440,359,449,345,334,532,237 is because they don't give shit away. They're not in the friend-making business.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-04-28 at 16:41.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-04-28, 16:24

I think they should drop a SCSI adapter in there, too.

And maybe an 8-track adapter for good measure.

And I'm pretty bummed that My MBP can't play LP's. I mean, I still have a bunch of those!*










* This is a lie. Who would ever use LP's when you can have 8-track!

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Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-04-28, 16:27

I will be requiring a FW800 adapter as well.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-28, 16:47

Nobody's talking about those goofy things.

But see? Everyone's got their hands out, wanting different stuff. Even when just joking and being silly.

Apple will never guess right by including these ports, and not those, or those two and not these three, etc. "Why not this kind of card slot I use?", etc. Never-ending. They'll be chasing their tail and constantly disappointing users. Or putting ports on that thousands (millions?) of other users never touch, once.

So remove that from the equation so it's not even a thing.

I'm not saying "remove all ports", I'm just saying you don't have to build in every one people might scream about wanting, because that's a losing game, before you even lace up your cleats.

Just put on four Thunderbolts, a headphone(?) jack and maybe adjust the pricing of after-the-fact donglefication.

Then you please, and dis-please, everyone in equal doses.

"It's so clean and sleek!"

"There's nothing useful on here, you minimalist sonsofbitches!"

  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-04-28, 16:50

But in all seriousness, when your SSD is baked in and can't be upgraded under any circumstances, an SD Card slot is not a bad failsafe.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-28, 16:54

If they're sitting on research that tells them this, that may be part of the reason they do it. A built-in rescue lifeboat or whatever. But it's not on any of the other notebooks. Including the ones that say "Pro" in their name and go for $1,299-1,499. Right now the lineup is an unholy mess. I'm looking forward to this time next year when everything that needs to be in place is in place. Maybe the Intel stuff has been phased out and the only Mac you can buy next May has some version of AS powering it. And then we all know what M-based Macs look like, and which has what specs/features. We're just in that middle transition period..."how much more 'pro' are they going to make the other MacBook Pro models?", etc.

Nobody knows much right now.

I don't know if this stuff is coming at WWDC or later in the fall, but we'll get a solid idea what they consider "important" soon enough. And, no matter which route they go, it's gonna be a squawkfest. For 2-3 days.

Always is. So they're used to it.

And customers/users adapt (hey!) and move on.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-04-28 at 17:05.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-04-28, 17:04

I can list a large handful of things in everyday use that someone, somewhere is going to complain about:

VGA
DVI
HDMI
DisplayPort
SD
Ethernet
FireWire 400 and 800
USB (and its 50 different connection "standards")
Thunderbolt 1 and 2

These are all things that are currently in widespread use. That the argument is down to [primarily] HDMI and SD is because they are the most "recent" technologies for Apple to have adopted. SD is a niche, while HDMI is at least understandable—to a point.

As for me, I would rather carry around an adapter than ask Apple to continue dragging along all these legacy ports. I have several things plugged into my current computer (USB drive and KB, and 24" ACD) that will require adapters when I get my new iMac. The KB will go away (but Apple still has the worst mouse on Earth, so I'll continue using my MS mouse, which is USB). My display is Mini DisplayPort, so I'll need an adapter for that. So, a small USB hub and a monitor adapter.

If I were on the road and needed a laptop, I'd carry a cheap 3-port thing with me that has USB-C, HDMI, and USB. It would live in my bag. But I don't, so whatever.

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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-28, 17:08

That's exactly what I would do. If Apple had to update their chassis every time some new I/O because popular or widespread, that's a tail-chasing game. Provide the "port for everything" and let everyone buy what they need, when they need it (if they even need to buy anything at all; because many won't/don't).

They don't have to play favorites or try to predict what's going to make sense on Macs for the next 2-4 years (or longer). That's not even fun.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-04-28, 17:40

Apple cannot win on this front. "When is Apple going to adopt technology ABC?" followed by "Apple dumped technology ABC for technology LMNOP?" "Hey, when is Apple going to adopt technology XYZ?"

Thunderbolt 3/USB-C conquers all of those molehills in one stroke, and I'm glad they're all-in on it. Personally, I hope they stay all in and continue to force the issue. Over the last 5 years Mac users have had access to more peripherals than ever, thanks to USB-C. Had Apple not gone all-in on it, then we would still be selling the myriad of old crap and not-very-good-selection-because-it's-a-Mac stuff and people would be complaining that Apple wasn't offering ABCLMNOPXYZ on every confounded computer they sell.

One-thing-that-works-with-everything is way better than ABCLMNOPXYZ, because it forces accessory manufacturers to innovate rather than resting on their lorels.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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chucker
 
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2021-04-28, 18:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I think the departure of a certain person/mindset had as much to do with that as anything. The pride (arrogance?) that prevents folks from copping to a bad idea/design is strong.
Yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I just don't know if they'd consider anything other than four Thunderbolt ports a "goof". And if they put on HDMI and an SD, then you're going to get a thousand users come out of the woodwork demanding even more niche, specialized ports for their profession/workflow.
I mean… would you?

My rMBP has MagSafe, Thunderbolt, USB-A, headphones, HDMI, SD. There were people who complained with that generation that it doesn't have Ethernet and FireWire, but my impression is they were much fewer than the amount of complaints we get today.

Anyway, I think I personally don't care that much. I would be quite embarrassed and annoyed if the "I forgot this one doesn't have HDMI" thing ever happens to me, but beyond that? Meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I just think Apple can eliminate any "pick and choose" hassles and make it easy. It'll be a small annoyance to some, but everything Apple does is a small annoyance to somebody, somewhere. This is the kind of thing that Steve would get up on stage and sell as a good thing, somehow. And for those who weren't convinced, he just wouldn't give a shit.

I kinda miss that part of Apple sometimes. Nobody's standing up there making me want to sell body parts to buy anything.
Isn't that literally what Schiller did with "courage"? People like to pan him for that, but I think he's right. It's exactly the kind of move Steve would've made. It's a tradeoff, yes, but a bold one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
That hasn't been the case in, literally, a decade now. They lost their master showman and the Great Convincer, and nobody's even come close to filling that role. There really was an element of "you gotta have this, and you know you do...even if you can't fully state why just yet" that is absolutely missing from Tim & Co. You can't learn or practice that sort of thing, for sure. You just have it or you don't, and that's what I've come to miss more than anything. It's just stuff now. Good stuff, even great at times. But none of it has meant much to me because it didn't have that carnival barker in a turtleneck doing all he could to make it look like something you couldn't be without.
I think it's also that the videos are now so perfectionist and overproduced that, while somewhat pleasant to watch, they don't really feel very personal. Steve was far more subdued about it.

Some presenters are better at this than others, to be sure. For example, no offense to her, but the woman who introduced Apple One in fall just shouldn't have. Partially because she sounded very I Am Corporate America Here To Sell You A Corporate Product. Bow Before Me, Consumer. But also partially because doing all that in a segment that was about a minute long is just silly. Introduce the person, have her say three sentences, then have her walk away again? How distracting. And then lastly, because, right before her, there was a presenter who did a fine job, and the topics overlapped, too — the Fitness+ guy should've simply mentioned it as a footnote. Just all-around an unforced error.

Steve was the other extreme; virtually everything was presented by him. And in part, that made sense: he was good at it (fun fact). But I'm not sure it would've scaled, and I'm also not sure "our one and only presenter is a white dude" is a good look in 2021.

I think what needs to happen is that whoever coaches these speakers needs to take a bit more of a look at Steve's style. Fewer superlatives. Less focus on specs. More of a personal story. Tell the audience why this shit sandwich is great, actually, and why the audience already knows it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Another thing I remember, years back, when Apple would actually include a few useful adapters in the box of their notebooks? This might've even been the PowerBook G4 days, but I remember that some basic little white plastic adaptors/dongles would be in the box.
Yup. Well into the Intel era. Not sure my 2014 MBP still did, but I think my 2006 and maybe my 2010 included a few adapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
While that goes against everything Apple seems to stand for now, it would be cool if they just tossed in an HDMI and card slot dongle. Design something, in-house, that is a card slot, HDMI, USB A(?) and include it in 14" and 16" MacBook Pro packaging. A "meet halfway" gesture, if nothing else. Still isn't perfect and ideal, but if they decide not to go back to those things built into the sides of the machines, there's wiggle room to consider.
Yup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
The reason they're sitting on $959,345,435,349,544,440,359,449,345,334,532,237 is because they don't give shit away. They're not in the friend-making business.
Well, at this point, they'd also argue that it's an environmental concern.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-04-28, 18:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I can list a large handful of things in everyday use that someone, somewhere is going to complain about:

VGA
DVI
HDMI
DisplayPort
SD
Ethernet
FireWire 400 and 800
USB (and its 50 different connection "standards")
Thunderbolt 1 and 2

These are all things that are currently in widespread use.
Oh come on. FireWire is not "currently in widespread use". Thunderbolt 1 never was, either; it wasn't until Thunderbolt 3 that it gained some momentum outside of Macs. VGA is disappearing.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-04-28, 18:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Oh come on. FireWire is not "currently in widespread use". Thunderbolt 1 never was, either; it wasn't until Thunderbolt 3 that it gained some momentum outside of Macs. VGA is disappearing.
I work in retail, and I sell adapters. That people continue to pop in on a regular basis trying to adapt their FW400 and 800 audio interfaces and external drives to Thunderbolt 3 tells me what I need to know. And, while VGA is not built into much any longer it is still a thing with legacy monitors, a fact that has cropped up over the last year as people try to resurrect any electronic anything to get their home office/school working.

Thunderbolt 1 was not in wide use, until it was Thunderbolt 2. The adapters are the same, which is why I lumped them together.

Are you interpreting my list based on what you can currently buy, or what people have lying around? Those two things are not the same.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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PB PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2021-04-28, 23:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I think they should drop a SCSI adapter in there, too.

And maybe an 8-track adapter for good measure.

And I'm pretty bummed that My MBP can't play LP's. I mean, I still have a bunch of those!*










* This is a lie. Who would ever use LP's when you can have 8-track!
Come on, just get archive grade tap drives, screw SSDs, CD-ROM, DVD, SCSI nonsense, in fact a computer should fill an entire room in our homes so we can hook up anything we want, even ourselves.
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-04-29, 00:49

Okay I have spent all evening battling an old toilet and just kind of skimmed all of this.

In the CURRENT version of my MacBook Pro 2014 I currently have:

–  MagSafe power plugged in
– Thunderbolt to Ethernet adapter (for doing Zooms on my slow-ass internet)
– USB to USB 3.x C portable external hard drive
– 32GB SD card eternally stuck into the slot

At work I may find myself needing to plug in an HDMI cable so I can project on the screens in meeting rooms.

The Ethernet cable is the only dongle.

A P-P-P-P-PowerBook (MacBook Pro) is supposed to do it ALL without so many dongles, dammit.




dong dong dong



...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-29, 07:42

Maybe so, but it seems Apple may no longer see it that way. It ultimately comes down to them, and they’re the ones people have to direct their wishes/disagreements to. Nobody here (and their opinions) are on the hook for anything. Apple has never once rang me up and asked for my input on what to do about their notebooks. And I’d hang up on them if they did because I don’t want the responsibility/pressure.

“You’re asking the wrong guy, Tim. I just get to say meaningless shit on a message forum, consequence-free.”

They’re either gonna correct course a bit and put the HDMI and SD slot back on. Or not. People gotta deal with it, either way.

At the end of the day, people (in any serious numbers) aren’t likely to flee the platform over hardware reasons. Ports and keyboards and display size and colors aren’t why people choose to use a Mac/Apple. Those are just details and side issues that have nothing to do with the overall big picture, ecosystem, security/privacy stuff, the “it just works” aspect, etc. in my 25+ years of swimming in these waters, I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s migrated to Windows over I/O concerns or display tech or any of the other 158 things nerds tend to squawk about and get into the weeds over.

It’ll all shake out as it’s intended and users will deal with it, as they always have

“Where’s the SCSI port and floppy drive?! Waaahhh!!!”

Six months later: crickets chirping

Apple is going to define what “pro” means by any way they want. And, like everything else in the culture/planet, it’s going to immediately divide everyone right down the middle. We’re never going to all agree on anything ever again. That time is long gone.

Roll with it until the next outrage/disappointment comes knocking.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-04-29 at 07:59.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-04-29, 08:07

It’s true, there have been many changes that felt like deal breakers, that ended up not being so. Like the loss of the internal optical disk drive, I use an external for watching old movies and I’m okay with that. That said dongle/hub life sucks, it turns what is meant to be a clean space into a total mess. As a result my Mac is more of a tangled mess than my USB port ladened PC; it has over 8 USB ports on the motherboard, and Ethernet connected, KVM switch for the keyboard (to share with my Mac) and I’m using many of them, but it is way easier to cable manage.

I’m guessing it’s not a big deal for most people, who might have one drive, SD reader, third party wireless mouse dongle, and maybe a printer/scanner.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-29, 08:54

I don’t like mess and clutter either. I don’t know what they’re going to. Because even if they put the SD slit and HDMI port back, there are still going to be tons of users bummed that their favorite, needed ports aren’t back. And they’re going to still live a cluttered, dongle-hanging existence.

They’re in a no-win pickle, Apple. No matter what they do, a bunch of people are still left out and not accommodated/pleased.

No wonder they like to push the wireless thing so much. Imagine that glorious day when nothing has to get physically plugged in.

We’re not there yet.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-04-29, 09:38

You know, there is a simple reason I don't see Apple putting those ports back into their machines: it would be a completely different logic board.

Right now Apple basically has the same board that is shaped differently for the various machines. This means simplicity and ease of repair/swapout. If they added more ports it would be custom. It would add additional controller chips etc.

Plus, Apple would rather you have a dongle and more battery life than be able to put an SD card into the side of your machine and lose 30 minutes of battery life. Especially when you only use an SD card in your machine maybe .0001% of the time you are using the MBP.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-04-29, 10:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I work in retail, and I sell adapters. That people continue to pop in on a regular basis trying to adapt their FW400 and 800 audio interfaces and external drives to Thunderbolt 3 tells me what I need to know.
My apologies.

I really would've thought FireWire is passé by now. I barely see it mentioned any more…

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
And, while VGA is not built into much any longer it is still a thing with legacy monitors, a fact that has cropped up over the last year as people try to resurrect any electronic anything to get their home office/school working.
Sure, but we must be talking monitors that are, like, 15 years old at this point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Are you interpreting my list based on what you can currently buy, or what people have lying around? Those two things are not the same.
I guess the "I still have this and need to interface with it somehow" slightly changes things, sure.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-04-29, 10:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
You know, there is a simple reason I don't see Apple putting those ports back into their machines: it would be a completely different logic board.

Right now Apple basically has the same board that is shaped differently for the various machines. This means simplicity and ease of repair/swapout. If they added more ports it would be custom. It would add additional controller chips etc.
I don't think the 16-inch MBP will run off the same chipset. For example, it'll likely have RAM that isn't on-package.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-29, 10:04

I never considered that angle. An unused port, just sitting there is going to chew some power, just to be "on"? If so, and it's of any significance, they'd weigh that against how much a person is typically using said port? Unless you're working for National Geographic or Vogue, the constant usage may not be there.

Apple being Apple, they're sitting on these numbers/data. They should have a pretty solid idea of who's using/needing what. If the numbers are telling them not enough users are taking advantage of a certain feature, it'll fall under that cut-off/threshold and they'll yank it. They have to consider all those shifting numbers and intangibles too.

All interesting stuff. When these new models are unveiled and we see the first "reveal" footage appearing on the screen, everyone's going to be looking at the sides to see what the port situation is! Nobody's gonna even notice a new design, smaller bezels, tweaked edges/corner radii, tweaked aluminum coloring, etc.

PS - On a completely stupid, and unrelated, note...I do miss the glowing Apple logo. If that were to return, I wouldn't mind at all. But it may be more hassle than it's worth, so I'm fine either way. But it certainly acted as a "flag" for years and years. You'd spot a fellow Mac dork from across the airport terminal *like that*, and there was always something nice/comfortable about that.

"Shine on, pal...".
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-04-29, 10:22

Ports are not a huge power drain, and they go into standby modes that use 0.001mW or something like that. The glowing Apple logo would have used more than a USB port in standby. Apple is likely weighing user dislike for the loss of ports against people’s aesthetic desire for thin. In many people’s case, looks win every time.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-04-29, 10:36

Also, physical space needed to put the port in. My earlier point wasn't power draw but rather less room in the case for battery. To exaggerate the point, remember when they showed how much more battery they can put in a laptop by removing the physical casings to allow one to be removed? They added battery capacity by removing the ability to change out the battery on the fly. If you look at the layout of the components in these current laptops it is clear they want less physical devices taking up battery space.

Even is the new MBP doesn't have RAM in the SOC, it will still be embedded/soldered on to the board. This will likely be the same board used in the high end iMac going off of the current M1 lineup. It won't be much different I imagine.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-04-29, 10:50

I remember them introducing that wedge-shaped battery that filled up all that dead, unused space in a MacBook Air(?) a few years back (or was it a MacBook Pro?). I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah, whatever space inside something that isn't taken up by necessary tech/hardware, cram it full with a funky-shaped battery! Absolutely.

Yeah, the days of being able to remove/replace anything - battery, RAM, hard drive, guilt, your soul - are absolutely gone. At least in the portable/notebook realm, and probably in everything except the pro desktop (if/when an AS-based one ever shows up...I'm honestly 50/50 on that at this point, just looking around the past 6-8 years and seeing the "movement"/initiative). I honestly don't think I'd be one bit stunned if Apple abandoned that crowd/market in my lifetime. I think that's their kryptonite. Their stepchild in the closet.

"We weld it shut because ordering shit from Tiger Direct is soooo 2006." - Apple



PS - I'm not expecting the glow to return, nor do I require it. I simply miss it sometimes.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-04-29, 11:07

If they weren’t obsessed with making everything thin as a piece of paper, space would be less of an issue.

Also, solid state battery tech should help a lot with that issue.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-04-29, 11:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
My apologies.

I really would've thought FireWire is passé by now. I barely see it mentioned any more…
No apologies necessary. And believe me, I wish folks would give up on some of that stuff. But, some folks can't afford to, or refuse to. So they keep dragging their 8-track collection forward and rummaging through flea markets and second-hand stores looking for functional 8-track players. Hell, if you want a truly "vintage" Mustang, you have to source an 8-track player for the dash!

Another fun fact: About once a month or so we'll get some old codger (or even a graphic design firm) dragging in a Power Mac G4 looking to keep it up and running. If these folks had their way, there would absolutely be SCSI ports on new Macs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Sure, but we must be talking monitors that are, like, 15 years old at this point?
Yes. Old displays—sometimes—but not necessarily 15 years old. There are still brand spanking new monitors that have VGA built right in! This is driven by the "hang on to legacy at all costs" PC industry. Kudos to Apple for not playing this silly game!

Here's how the conversation goes:

Someone comes into the shop holding a VGA cable and says, "I need to make this work with my new laptop."

"Which laptop do you have?" I ask.

"The new Air," they respond.

"So," I say, trying to hide my contempt, "you're looking for a VGA to USB-C adapter?"

"Sure."

"Does your monitor have any other connections?"

"I don't know. I just bought it, but it has this." They look at their 15-year old cable and hold it up to me.

"Did it come with that?" I ask.

"No. This is what was hooked up to my old laptop." They then hold up the other end which has a VGA to Thunderbolt adapter on it. "My old monitor had the blue end, and I got this adapter to make it work."

I try not to laugh. "OK," I say. "You really should check the display for HDMI or DisplayPort. It will give you a much better connection and a vastly improved picture."

"I don't know what those are!"

I can tell the person is getting irritated now, so I get the appropriate adapter. "Take this home, but before you use it check the monitor's inputs for different ports. Take a picture of those ports and come back to see me. If there is a better solution, use that. It might cost a few dollars more, but it will be worth it."

"I'll take the cheap thing."

"Okay," I say, and take their money.



This happens weekly.

Remove VGA, insert FireWire, and repeat monthly.

Oh, and here's the fun part: FireWire to Thunderbolt 3 needs a FireWire 800 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter ($29), and then a Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter ($49). And holy-cow-if-you-have-FW400-I'm-gonna-sock-you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I guess the "I still have this and need to interface with it somehow" slightly changes things, sure.
Yeah, and if Apple doesn't make some hard decisions, these folks are going to have their way and you will be screaming for Apple to just move on when your laptop still weighs 10 pounds as the PC industry releases super thin laptops all around you. Apple has to do this. Differentiation is a selling point, and Apple is the only computer company that consistently has the stones to strip off legacy junk and leave it behind, even when they know they're going to get ripped for it. But, looking back on the industry, if it weren't for Apple making these decisions every computer you buy would still be a kludge, because the rest of the industry will not budge unless pushed. Apple is the "pusher" in the industry.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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