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Apple's ADD or Lack of Focus


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Kickaha
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2016-11-17, 20:21

640kB is enough for anybody!



I get your point, but... um... meh?
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PB PM
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2016-11-17, 21:19

Giving a computer the ability to compute things faster is one step, letting the computer decide what the steps are and should be is something totally different.
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Kickaha
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2016-11-17, 21:40

Ok, perhaps it's a misunderstanding of what is being proposed, and how teachable AI works.

It doesn't come up with new plans, it mimics what came before, and selects the best versions based on criteria provided by its ruleset.

So say that it looks for patterns in your calendar. "Every 12 months, X happens." "Every third Tue of alternating months, lunch at Y."

It then pulls in other information it has that presumably you had as well, based on your search history.

"According to Yelp, eatery Y requires reservations two weeks in advance."


"Hey, in three weeks you're usually having lunch at Y on Tue at noon with Joe. Would you like me to set up a reservation for 2 at that time?"

It's not stating what should be done, it's repeating steps you do already, and it notices that it can prompt you.

That's what we're talking about here. Make more sense?

I mean, if you don't like it, turn it off, but me, I'd freaking love a bit of assistance from time to time.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
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Robo
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2016-11-18, 17:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Maybe I sound like an old fart (I guess it comes with being in my 30's), but as the old saying goes, fools rush in.
There's also a zillion other old sayings about early birds getting worms and fortune favoring the bold, too.
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Eugene
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2016-11-18, 17:46

Aren't most of us in our late 30s or beyond? At 31, you're technically a millennial.
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Brave Ulysses
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2016-11-20, 19:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
They need Ive to retire. This is getting sad.

Designing books that glorify his work and now designing Christmas displays for a department store.

How does this make any sense? It lacks discipline and his role at Apple has been obviously affected by ego since Jobs' passing. Very sad.
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Brave Ulysses
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2016-11-21, 12:03

And Apple has disbanded its airport router team.

http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/21/...port-wireless/


I don't understand how a company so large and profitable does not have he ability to focus on more than a select few products.
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Ryan
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2016-11-21, 12:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
And Apple has disbanded its airport router team.

http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/21/...port-wireless/


I don't understand how a company so large and profitable does not have he ability to focus on more than a select few products.
I disagree with that sentiment. Lots of extremely large companies have effectively one successful product, or category of products. The oil companies have one product (refined petroleum). Amazon has 2 (retail and AWS). Google and Facebook just have one product that actually makes money (ads).

I think a company that can profitably produce lead-in-class products across multiple diverse segments is a rare thing.
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Brave Ulysses
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2016-11-21, 12:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
I disagree with that sentiment. Lots of extremely large companies have effectively one successful product, or category of products. The oil companies have one product (refined petroleum). Amazon has 2 (retail and AWS). Google and Facebook just have one product that actually makes money (ads).

I think a company that can profitably produce lead-in-class products across multiple diverse segments is a rare thing.
I guess that's what I think made apple unique. The ecosystem and ease of use within that ecosystem. That ecosystem is kind of falling apart and will increasingly fall apart if Apple continues to be unsuccessful with major new imitatives
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Dave
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2016-11-21, 12:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
And Apple has disbanded its airport router team.

http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/21/...port-wireless/


I don't understand how a company so large and profitable does not have he ability to focus on more than a select few products.
Yeah, seems like whatever their words may be, their actions indicate they're only interested in mobile products.

I'd like to think that Apple is smart enough to realize that even the most power-hungry super computer in the world can be "mobile" if you use enough UPSs, but I don't think they'd think that counts (even though having "bits and pieces dangling off the ports" is a fine answer for people who discover they need more drive space after they've bought one of the new MBPs).

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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alcimedes
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2016-11-21, 12:44

The really annoying part is getting wireless networks set up and working properly can be pretty daunting for many home users. Having hardware that all played nicely together was the entire point of Apple.

Is Apple's current iteration unaware of that fact?

Now they're being made fun of by MS for their old hardware to boot.

If there's an opposite of 'firing on all cylinders' Apple is doing it.

Google is your frenemy.
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chucker
 
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2016-11-21, 15:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Designing books that glorify his work and now designing Christmas displays for a department store.
I saw the christmas tree thing a while ago and am conflicted about it. I'd say it's bad for Apple's image, but it's also a private project of his (or is it?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
How does this make any sense? It lacks discipline and his role at Apple has been obviously affected by ego since Jobs' passing. Very sad.
Not sure who said it, but he lacks an editor.
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chucker
 
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2016-11-21, 15:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
And Apple has disbanded its airport router team.

http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/21/...port-wireless/
I think this is mostly good news. Their access points have been highly-priced niche products for about a decade now. You can get good-enough alternatives for a fraction of the price, and yes, I do recognize that they won't be as polished, their UI won't be as good, yadda yadda. Even then, brands like Ubiquiti and Eero seem to offer products for that segment.

It's mostly a commodity market. That's never been Apple's strength. Have 'em focus on stuff they're actually good at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
I don't understand how a company so large and profitable does not have he ability to focus on more than a select few products.
Because management is hard, and one of the most important things Steve was to make sure the company is focused. Within two or three years, he killed the tablet (Newton), the scanners, printers, and even most of the Mac models. This wasn't just (or even mostly) about Apple being too small to afford it.

Yes, they're larger now, and have plenty of cash. That doesn't mean managing a more vast swath of products becomes that much easier. You still have scaling issues, and there's little wisdom on how to solve them. You can delegate and create a deeper hierarchy, but then you have to worry about infighting, communication, vision, and generally losing touch. One aspect Windows Vista / Longhorn had to be rebooted (and still ended up being poorly received) was such a convoluted organizational structure, and part of the reason Apple could taunt Microsoft about it by shipping Panther, Tiger, and Leopard in the meantime — iterating quickly on features — was that they were lean about it. They didn't attempt huge-picture problems like WinFS did, nor worry too much about backwards compatibility like Win32 continues to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
The really annoying part is getting wireless networks set up and working properly can be pretty daunting for many home users.
Sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Having hardware that all played nicely together was the entire point of Apple.

Is Apple's current iteration unaware of that fact?
Cool, so should Apple start producing displays again? How many models?

Printers? Scanners? If not, why not? At what point do you draw the line of "products that play nicely together"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Now they're being made fun of by MS for their old hardware to boot.

If there's an opposite of 'firing on all cylinders' Apple is doing it.
Oh bullshit. Does Microsoft make desktops now? No, not pricey niche-market digital easels. Desktops. Mac mini-like, iMac-like, just a regular minitower, anything. Bueller? Oh, right, no, they don't. In fact, they don't make any mass-market computers at all, so why is it relevant what they have to say on the matter? They're providing interesting concepts, and products perhaps useful for some segment of the market. Not much more. They can't even ship a desktop OS with a sensible UI framework any more, and their smartphone story makes less and less sense (why not just team up with Google for some Android-Windows integration?).

Apple is currently the only company that has both a successful mass-market desktop/laptop operating system and one for smartphone/tablet. (Their smartwatch and TV stuff still strikes me as not-quite-there-yet.) macOS has some quality problems, and iOS is beginning to have growing pains (does anybody really intuitively understand the differences between long-pressing and 3D Touch? Don't we have too many swipe gestures with overlapping meanings by now?), but they continue to iterate at a pace that seems just right. Any faster, and the quality would be worse; any slower, and we'd want more features. We both keep whining about the quality and about how boring the products have become. You can't have it both ways.

Their visions of Continuity (how data and your workflow gets transparently shared between devices you use), of how macOS and iOS starkly differ in their UI paradigms, of how we can eventually extend some of this to other platforms like a TV, of how privacy / your data sovereignty should be handled? Those are fairly strong. Name a company that offers something comparable.
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Eugene
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2016-11-21, 18:46

Wireless is a fractured landscape of SU-MIMO chipsets, MU-MIMO chipsets, routers with 2x radios, 3x radios. With consumers figuring out mesh. I can see why Apple is getting out of it right now. They'll probably start stocking Eero or Luma kits right away.

Also didn't Broadcom sell off its WiFi/IoT business?

But Apple can afford to make niche products like wireless routers and displays. I think the general rule should be that Apple makes everything required to give their computing devices basic functionality in the home (or their store.) But then again, Apple doesn't make a "TV" for its AppleTV, so yeah throw that notion out the window.

e: It's odd, but Apple really does seem to be slowly evolving into another IBM.
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Brave Ulysses
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2016-11-21, 21:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I think this is mostly good news. Their access points have been highly-priced niche products for about a decade now. You can get good-enough alternatives for a fraction of the price, and yes, I do recognize that they won't be as polished, their UI won't be as good, yadda yadda. Even then, brands like Ubiquiti and Eero seem to offer products for that segment.

It's mostly a commodity market. That's never been Apple's strength. Have 'em focus on stuff they're actually good at.



Because management is hard, and one of the most important things Steve was to make sure the company is focused. Within two or three years, he killed the tablet (Newton), the scanners, printers, and even most of the Mac models. This wasn't just (or even mostly) about Apple being too small to afford it.

Yes, they're larger now, and have plenty of cash. That doesn't mean managing a more vast swath of products becomes that much easier. You still have scaling issues, and there's little wisdom on how to solve them. You can delegate and create a deeper hierarchy, but then you have to worry about infighting, communication, vision, and generally losing touch. One aspect Windows Vista / Longhorn had to be rebooted (and still ended up being poorly received) was such a convoluted organizational structure, and part of the reason Apple could taunt Microsoft about it by shipping Panther, Tiger, and Leopard in the meantime — iterating quickly on features — was that they were lean about it. They didn't attempt huge-picture problems like WinFS did, nor worry too much about backwards compatibility like Win32 continues to.



Sure.



Cool, so should Apple start producing displays again? How many models?

Printers? Scanners? If not, why not? At what point do you draw the line of "products that play nicely together"?



Oh bullshit. Does Microsoft make desktops now? No, not pricey niche-market digital easels. Desktops. Mac mini-like, iMac-like, just a regular minitower, anything. Bueller? Oh, right, no, they don't. In fact, they don't make any mass-market computers at all, so why is it relevant what they have to say on the matter? They're providing interesting concepts, and products perhaps useful for some segment of the market. Not much more. They can't even ship a desktop OS with a sensible UI framework any more, and their smartphone story makes less and less sense (why not just team up with Google for some Android-Windows integration?).

Apple is currently the only company that has both a successful mass-market desktop/laptop operating system and one for smartphone/tablet. (Their smartwatch and TV stuff still strikes me as not-quite-there-yet.) macOS has some quality problems, and iOS is beginning to have growing pains (does anybody really intuitively understand the differences between long-pressing and 3D Touch? Don't we have too many swipe gestures with overlapping meanings by now?), but they continue to iterate at a pace that seems just right. Any faster, and the quality would be worse; any slower, and we'd want more features. We both keep whining about the quality and about how boring the products have become. You can't have it both ways.

Their visions of Continuity (how data and your workflow gets transparently shared between devices you use), of how macOS and iOS starkly differ in their UI paradigms, of how we can eventually extend some of this to other platforms like a TV, of how privacy / your data sovereignty should be handled? Those are fairly strong. Name a company that offers something comparable.


The company you are describing is not one that inspires or that "thinks different". Apple is quickly becoming nothing more than a high volume mobile device maker whose direction and decisions are driven by bean counting and what might positively affect their stock price.

It's very very troubling, especially considering many of us and others depend on the ecosystem they created but that they are seemingly killing and forgetting about day by day.


People like to say that Steve jobs simplified Apple to just four products but that is missing the entire point of what he did. He created a lifestyle and ecosystem around those four products that was almost entirely Apple and focused on solutions and not necessarily the specific specs and features of the products. Software (iLife and iwork and OS X), routers, displays, cables, MP3 player, then a phone, internet services, an Apple TV to play the same content from all those devices on your own tv. It was incredibly cohesive and progressed together as a whole. As the iPhone became a run away success and after Jobs passed it seems as if all of those pieces are being run and managed and judged indepdent from each other and apple no longer sees and values the indirect benefits of developing amazing consumer and professional software, or the value in having a beautiful apple display next to their beautiful laptops, even if the margins are smaller than they want. Or see less integration with a wifi router and a time machine backup.

Plus, it's not like you can possibly make the argument that Tim Cook values simplicity. Look at the product line up these days and their refusal and or inability to commit to things... the MacBook Pro lineup is ridiculous. The non touch bar model should never have existed and then they are too scared to leave any $100 price point untouched so they keep two year old models mixed in the lineup without any price cut but also remove the ability to upgrade them similar as before.

Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2016-11-21 at 22:51.
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drewprops
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2016-11-21, 22:14

Well this part is clear:

"The central reason for abandoning the AirPort line appears to focus mainly on its small revenue gains in comparison to the company's more lucrative products, like the iPhone."


Apple would seem to be putting all of its marbles into the iPhone bucket.

I remember how well that worked for Nokia.






...

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Eugene
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2016-11-21, 22:35

Lol a cohesive ecosystem of ... cables.

The formula has clearly changed in the past 2 decades. Yes, it's been almost two decades. Cellular networks are advancing at a faster pace than 802.11 is. The personal computer has been distilled down to a handheld device for the most part. Of course Apple is going to move away from building the boring infrastructure devices. Ever visit the networking aisle at Fry's? Routers are a commodity item like SD cards at this point. Apple doesn't make those either.

And what about the ToucBar-less MacBook Pro? It's pretty obvious to me that is the half-step toward replacing the MacBook Air line. The MacBook 12" replaces the 11" Air. The MacBook Pro 13" replaces the 13" Air. There will probably be a larger screen MacBook as well just to meet pricepoints, but Apple is going from three lines to two very soon.

In addition, keeping old models around has been Apple's play even when Jobs was here. It started happening with the iPads and late with the "S" revision iPhones.

We can argue until we are blue in the face, but Jobs never made the product I wanted in all the years he was at the helm either. Where was the headless iMac with 2 PCIe slots (for one dual-height video card) a single CPU, 4 DIMM slots, etc? Apple's run by smarter people than that of an Apple fanboy community stuck in a 15-years-ago mindset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Well this part is clear:

"The central reason for abandoning the AirPort line appears to focus mainly on its small revenue gains in comparison to the company's more lucrative products, like the iPhone."


Apple would seem to be putting all of its marbles into the iPhone bucket.

I remember how well that worked for Nokia.
What do we all have to gain from Apple refining an AirPort Utility around a Marvell SoC and radio transceiver? This is like debating whether one reference Intel PUMA6 based cable modem is better than another brand's functionally identical PUMA6 modem.
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Brave Ulysses
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2016-11-21, 22:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Lol a cohesive ecosystem of ... cables.

The formula has clearly changed in the past 2 decades. Yes, it's been almost two decades. Cellular networks are advancing at a faster pace than 802.11 is. The personal computer has been distilled down to a handheld device for the most part. Of course Apple is going to move away from building the boring infrastructure devices. Ever visit the networking aisle at Fry's? Routers are a commodity item like SD cards at this point. Apple doesn't make those either.

And what about the ToucBar-less MacBook Pro? It's pretty obvious to me that is the half-step toward replacing the MacBook Air line. The MacBook 12" replaces the 11" Air. The MacBook Pro 13" replaces the 13" Air. There will probably be a larger screen MacBook as well just to meet pricepoints, but Apple is going from three lines to two very soon.

In addition, keeping old models around has been Apple's play even when Jobs was here. It started happening with the iPads and late with the "S" revision iPhones.

We can argue until we are blue in the face, but Jobs never made the product I wanted in all the years he was at the helm either. Where was the headless iMac with 2 PCIe slots (for one dual-height video card) a single CPU, 4 DIMM slots, etc? Apple's run by smarter people than that of an Apple fanboy community stuck in a 15-years-ago mindset.



What do we all have to gain from Apple refining an AirPort Utility around a Marvell SoC and radio transceiver? This is like debating whether one reference Intel PUMA6 based cable modem is better than another brand's functionally identical PUMA6 modem.
You laugh at cables, but you oddly fail to realize or admit that every single product category that Apple is in is a commoditized market. It always has been, and always will be. You have consistently shown over the last 6 months to be incredible arrogant about your view of the tech world but you are so painfully oblivious to reality. You seriously defend things by citing game of thrones and the walking dead and other pop culture fads as if they really do dictate markets. The reality is that game of thrones is watched by 23 million people worldwide and that is THE most generous (and frankly unsubstantiated) number that includes streams, dvrs, etc. that is an absolute joke of a number in the world scheme of technology and yet you use a show like that to justify apples decisions and confidence in their direction. You are clearly in the same Silicon Valley/ San Francisco Bay Area bubble that Apple has been operating in since 2008.
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Brave Ulysses
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2016-11-21, 23:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post


What do we all have to gain from Apple refining an AirPort Utility around a Marvell SoC and radio transceiver? This is like debating whether one reference Intel PUMA6 based cable modem is better than another brand's functionally identical PUMA6 modem.
Wow.... do not know what to say, but you basically just condemned apples entire existence. It's never been about the differentiation or advantage of its specific chipsets and hardware. It's about the product and vision that they created with those parts. The sum has always been greater through a combination of design, ui, software and vision focused on solutions and ease of use.


Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2016-11-21 at 23:52.
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Eugene
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2016-11-21, 23:56

You're condemning Apple by continually looking to the past as inspiration for their future. There is no further refinement of the AirPort Utility to be made. Setting up my Netgear wireless extender was just as easy.

The three biggest innovations for Apple in the past 2 decades have been the following in chronological order.

1) The iPod
2) The iTMS
3) The iPhone

The original iPod languished on side shelves for years after the iPhone took over. Apple needs to find the next iPhone because their core business can't be iPhones 10 years from now.

---

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/21/1...rt-nfl-nba-mlb

Everyone's in on this game except Apple it seems.
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turtle
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2016-11-22, 00:06

You guys do realize it is hard for Ives to design a tree and an AirPort Extreme. I mean, he put lights on the APE but not the tree. Wonder if there is a connections.

Do the new Macs have the "breathing" white LED?

While it is a shock to me that they are getting out of the AirPort business it really isn't. Like others have said, many companies offer much more compelling products for a fraction of the price. I'm guessing this means Time Machine is going to really open up what volumes it will backup to. It is either that or they are going to expect us to buy Server for our iMacs (since they don't care about Mac Pro or mini).

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Dave
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2016-11-22, 02:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
You guys do realize it is hard for Ives to design a tree and an AirPort Extreme. I mean, he put lights on the APE but not the tree. Wonder if there is a connections.

Do the new Macs have the "breathing" white LED?

While it is a shock to me that they are getting out of the AirPort business it really isn't. Like others have said, many companies offer much more compelling products for a fraction of the price. I'm guessing this means Time Machine is going to really open up what volumes it will backup to. It is either that or they are going to expect us to buy Server for our iMacs (since they don't care about Mac Pro or mini).
They'll probably go the server route.

Then 6 months later they'll decide that what the Mac Mini really needs is to be smaller, have the CPU out of a MacBook, and cost at least $5k.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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chucker
 
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2016-11-22, 14:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
People like to say that Steve jobs simplified Apple to just four products but that is missing the entire point of what he did. He created a lifestyle and ecosystem around those four products that was almost entirely Apple
No, it wasn't.

This is Steve's Digital Hub slide. The Mac at the center. Other devices as satellites. Two portable music players, a still camera, a video camera, a PDA, and a DVD player. If the iPod had existed, two of these six products would have been replaced by one of Apple's. But if you're going down that argument, they shouldn't have killed QuickTake, because that would've replaced another. Nor the Newton — another. Heck, they even used to make a set-top box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
and focused on solutions and not necessarily the specific specs and features of the products.
Sure, absolutely. But Apple does continue with their "our products don't compete on spec sheets" strategy. Heck, if they did, frankly, they wouldn't be very competitive at all. They compete on customer experience. We can mock about how Tim keeps saying "customer sat", but that's no accident, and that's no bean-counting at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Software (iLife and iwork and OS X), routers, displays, cables, MP3 player, then a phone, internet services, an Apple TV to play the same content from all those devices on your own tv. It was incredibly cohesive and progressed together as a whole. As the iPhone became a run away success and after Jobs passed it seems as if all of those pieces are being run and managed and judged indepdent from each other and apple no longer sees and values the indirect benefits of developing amazing consumer and professional software, or the value in having a beautiful apple display next to their beautiful laptops, even if the margins are smaller than they want. Or see less integration with a wifi router and a time machine backup.
I can see some merit to this argument, but again, much of it was true in the Jobs era as well. Today, people complain that if you want a macOS laptop with 32 GB of RAM, well, tough. And this is indeed relevant to me — I sure hope they have one on offer by the time I'm due. But ten years ago, if you wanted an iPod with a larger capacity drive? Better ask Archos or Creative instead. Or how about a sub-$2,000 tower desktop computer? Sorry, no problem pre-Steve (Performa 6000 series), but Steve didn't want you having one of those.

So there was always a compromise: either you were willing to buy into the Apple ecosystem, which severely limited your options, but came with better integration. Or, if you relied on certain products Apple wasn't willing to offer, then dude, you were getting a Dell. Apple wasn't everything to everyone then and it isn't now.

They're offering features like Continuity now. They're continuing to figure out how macOS and iOS have different personalities — Siri, for instance, isn't just a port, but offers Mac-specific features that make sense on the platform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Plus, it's not like you can possibly make the argument that Tim Cook values simplicity. Look at the product line up these days and their refusal and or inability to commit to things...
I do worry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
the MacBook Pro lineup is ridiculous. The non touch bar model should never have existed and then they are too scared to leave any $100 price point untouched so they keep two year old models mixed in the lineup without any price cut but also remove the ability to upgrade them similar as before.
That'll pass. But yes, I think Steve would have edited this better. He'd rather have killed some of these products a little prematurely than end up with such a confusing stopgap lineup.
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chucker
 
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2016-11-22, 14:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
You're condemning Apple by continually looking to the past as inspiration for their future. [..]
http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/21/1...rt-nfl-nba-mlb

Everyone's in on this game except Apple it seems.
Nobody's seeing the irony in talking about past vs. future, then lamenting how Apple doesn't "get" TV?
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chucker
 
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2016-11-22, 14:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
Do the new Macs have the "breathing" white LED?
rMBPs don't have it, so it hasn't been there since 2012.
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alcimedes
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2016-11-22, 15:27

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Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I think this is mostly good news. Their access points have been highly-priced niche products for about a decade now. You can get good-enough alternatives for a fraction of the price, and yes, I do recognize that they won't be as polished, their UI won't be as good, yadda yadda. Even then, brands like Ubiquiti and Eero seem to offer products for that segment.
Apple's entire product line is one of overpriced computer hardware with a quality UI slapped on it, designed to work together.

You can literally get a 'good enough alternative' to every single Apple product for a fraction of the price.



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Cool, so should Apple start producing displays again? How many models?
Yeah, they probably should. Something with a high quality panel in it, and some ports to make up for all the useful crap they've neutered out of their laptop line.


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Printers? Scanners? If not, why not? At what point do you draw the line of "products that play nicely together"?
For printers/scanners, probably something in the 3D world. Laser/inkjet printers have gotten about as far as they're going to, and it's very easy to take a PDF from any computer/printer combination and have that document print out elsewhere.

In the 3D space it's an entirely different story. It's hard to find software/hardware that works well together and will produce consistent results between setups. That would be the perfect space for them to branch out into.

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Oh bullshit. Does Microsoft make desktops now? No, not pricey niche-market digital easels. Desktops. Mac mini-like, iMac-like, just a regular minitower, anything. Bueller? Oh, right, no, they don't. In fact, they don't make any mass-market computers at all, so why is it relevant what they have to say on the matter?
The main difference being, MS doesn't have to make quality machines, because they allow other hardware manufacturers to run their OS.

Since Apple isn't likely to be going back down that road any time soon, Apple has to give a shit about the quality of their hardware. In two+ years the Mac Pro has seen crap for updates, but no price drops either. Since 2013, the price and CPU's have been the exact same in the MacPro line. That's just insulting to consumers. They were what, $600+ per CPU originally, now you can get them for less than $350. That's $500 Apple could have shaved off the price and hasn't bothered to.



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Their visions of Continuity (how data and your workflow gets transparently shared between devices you use), of how macOS and iOS starkly differ in their UI paradigms, of how we can eventually extend some of this to other platforms like a TV, of how privacy / your data sovereignty should be handled? Those are fairly strong. Name a company that offers something comparable.
Their vision has been crap the last five years. Their software has gotten constantly neutered and dumbed down almost across the entire gamut they offer. (I can't think of a single Apple software program that's improved in the last three years, can you?)

Their computer hardware has languished, ignored but not even discounted.

Apple is also losing headway in the mobile world as well.

Where are they succeeding right now? Where are they leading? Where are they generating excitement in the computer world today?

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2016-11-22, 15:45

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Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Nobody's seeing the irony in talking about past vs. future, then lamenting how Apple doesn't "get" TV?
Except TV is very much the present and the future. The transport of the media and ownership of the content is where Apple needs to broker deals. See PlayStation Vue, Amazon Prime, Netflix, cableco implementations like X1. It's a fractured landscape that is ripe for a takeover.
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chucker
 
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2016-11-22, 16:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Apple's entire product line is one of overpriced computer hardware with a quality UI slapped on it, designed to work together.

You can literally get a 'good enough alternative' to every single Apple product for a fraction of the price.
Well, yes. Exactly.

That's not only true for 2016 Apple, by the way.

But then, why on earth are you an admin of an Apple-focused board if you hold such a simplistic view on the matter? It's not like you couldn't have applied this argument in 2006. Or 1996.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Yeah, they probably should. Something with a high quality panel in it, and some ports to make up for all the useful crap they've neutered out of their laptop line.
No, they probably shouldn't, because aside from looking nicer, the only way they can differentiate that, and it's quite a stretchy one, is to build in a dock. Which brings with it the typical AIO flaws — do you throw away your monitor every time you need different ports on your dock? Thunderbolt 4? USB 4.7? HDMI 3.1b? But wait, didn't that monitor work fine and would've lasted a decade?

Monitors are a commodity product. Get a goddamn $99 24-inch 1080p display or two and three and you're settled. Or $299 4K if need be.

Yes, a Retina desktop display. For three hundred bucks. You think Apple wants to compete in such a cutthroat bullshit market? What do they bring to the table?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
For printers/scanners, probably something in the 3D world. Laser/inkjet printers have gotten about as far as they're going to, and it's very easy to take a PDF from any computer/printer combination and have that document print out elsewhere.
See, now we're getting somewhere more interesting — make Apple pioneer some product categories. Part of why AirPort existed in the first place is that Apple wanted to bring Wi-Fi to the masses. They did. Now it's boring.

3D printing and scanning are sort of there, but sucky to use. Apple may have something to offer there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
In the 3D space it's an entirely different story. It's hard to find software/hardware that works well together and will produce consistent results between setups. That would be the perfect space for them to branch out into.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
The main difference being, MS doesn't have to make quality machines, because they allow other hardware manufacturers to run their OS.
But MS does make quality machines now, because they're now in the position where their 90s-era license-the-OS model is beginning to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Since Apple isn't likely to be going back down that road any time soon,
I think concepts like Apple giving certain segments of the Mac to select partners is quite plausible. Are they going to make servers again? Probably not. So let Lenovo make them, or HPE. Or someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Apple has to give a shit about the quality of their hardware.
Yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
In two+ years the Mac Pro has seen crap for updates, but no price drops either. Since 2013, the price and CPU's have been the exact same in the MacPro line. That's just insulting to consumers.
Indeed it is. The Mac Pro and Mac mini story is increasingly pathetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Their vision has been crap the last five years. Their software has gotten constantly neutered and dumbed down almost across the entire gamut they offer. (I can't think of a single Apple software program that's improved in the last three years, can you?)
Photos, Maps, Messages.

Oh, I know what's about to come. "But Photos sucks because I wish we had Aperture instead", "But Maps sucks because I once got better POI information on Google Maps instead", and "But Messages sucks because the new iMessage features in iOS 10 just annoy me and I'll ignore that I'm clearly not the target audience and instead point out that the macOS version of Messages lacks some of the new features". All valid. And yet, for many people, all three have gotten tremendously more useful year after year.

Heck, I'll throw in Handoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Their computer hardware has languished, ignored but not even discounted.
They've just brought a major new feature to their computer hardware, alongside an extensive API that's thought out so well it comes with its own human interface guidelines, as well as updates on day one to plenty of their first-party apps from Safari over Final Cut Pro X to Xcode and even Terminal.

But it's languished. Sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Apple is also losing headway in the mobile world as well.
No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Where are they succeeding right now? Where are they leading? Where are they generating excitement in the computer world today?
Leading? Let's see.

They have, by a long shot, the fastest mobile single-threaded CPUs. They're extending their lead year after year.

They continue to have the best $1,000 laptop money can buy, and the best $2,500 one.

They have the most sensible integration of mobile and desktop operating systems. Each to their own soul, yet interacting with each other.

Their accessibility stack is killer, and is perhaps one of the strongest signs Cook is more than a bean-counter.

Their smartwatch is still early-adopters-only, if you ask me, but undoubtedly dominates the market.
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alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
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2016-11-22, 17:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Well, yes. Exactly.

That's not only true for 2016 Apple, by the way.

But then, why on earth are you an admin of an Apple-focused board if you hold such a simplistic view on the matter? It's not like you couldn't have applied this argument in 2006. Or 1996.
Because they used to make a nice, well rounded ecosystem to work in, where you could focus on just getting work done.



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No, they probably shouldn't, because aside from looking nicer, the only way they can differentiate that, and it's quite a stretchy one, is to build in a dock. Which brings with it the typical AIO flaws — do you throw away your monitor every time you need different ports on your dock? Thunderbolt 4? USB 4.7? HDMI 3.1b? But wait, didn't that monitor work fine and would've lasted a decade? Monitors are a commodity product. Get a goddamn $99 24-inch 1080p display or two and three and you're settled. Or $299 4K if need be.

Yes, a Retina desktop display. For three hundred bucks. You think Apple wants to compete in such a cutthroat bullshit market? What do they bring to the table?
Apple has never had a problem keeping older hardware going in their lineup. I'm sure some USB 3, TB, basically you could have a single USB-C cable connect to your monitor, and have your useful ports from there.

Given they offer laptops with a single USB-C port, and all the stupidity that comes with that, offering a monitor work around would be a nice touch. Apple has never felt a need to compete with anyone based on hardware price, I'm sure they wouldn't for a monitor either.

As an example of why, there have been random problems with people having huge CPU spikes when using external monitors with their laptops. What causes it? No idea, and no one will take responsibility because Apple will point to the monitor maker, the monitor maker will point at Apple, and the customer is screwed. There was a certain elegance to being able to say "It's all your shit, it should work properly."

http://apple.stackexchange.com/quest...ternal-monitor

It appears that disabling some misc kext will resolve the issue, but this is *why* you buy a Mac in the first place, so you don't have to dive into the guts of your machine to figure out why plugging in a monitor brings every core up to 100% and your machine to a halt.

http://apple.stackexchange.com/quest...ternal-monitor




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But MS does make quality machines now, because they're now in the position where their 90s-era license-the-OS model is beginning to fail.
Failing in this case is defined at 89.25% market share?


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I think concepts like Apple giving certain segments of the Mac to select partners is quite plausible. Are they going to make servers again? Probably not. So let Lenovo make them, or HPE. Or someone.
They didn't outsource their book production. I don't see them letting go of the Mac line any time soon.

Instead, they just ignore it and wait for it to die.


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Photos, Maps, Messages.
They have seen improvements, but in all three cases, weren't those just improvements to bring the Apple products to par with, or just under the quality of free competitor's products?

In the mean time, they totally dropped the ball on Pages, Numbers, Keynote, Final Cut, Aperture, iTunes, there are probably others.



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They've just brought a major new feature to their computer hardware, alongside an extensive API that's thought out so well it comes with its own human interface guidelines, as well as updates on day one to plenty of their first-party apps from Safari over Final Cut Pro X to Xcode and even Terminal.

But it's languished. Sure.
That's one new feature in three year's time.

Oh, and while you got that neato touch bar, we took away the SD port, the HDMI port, standard USB ports, and Magsafe, and we soldered your storage to the MB!


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No?
Has Apple gained any market share in the mobile world? They appear perpetually stuck under 20%.



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Leading? Let's see.

They have, by a long shot, the fastest mobile single-threaded CPUs. They're extending their lead year after year.
Yes!

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They continue to have the best $1,000 laptop money can buy, and the best $2,500 one.
Based on?

Many of these machines are technically superior on multiple facets.

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile...aptops-1304361

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They have the most sensible integration of mobile and desktop operating systems. Each to their own soul, yet interacting with each other.
Based on, and in comparison to what?

Apple are the only ones with a mobile/desktop OS combo to speak of, given MS's lack of penetration into the mobile world.

However you expand that definition a tiny bit and look at Android integration between their MacOS/Windows apps. and their mobile devices, it's pretty good.

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Their accessibility stack is killer, and is perhaps one of the strongest signs Cook is more than a bean-counter.
I don't think that carries any weight with consumers.

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Their smartwatch is still early-adopters-only, if you ask me, but undoubtedly dominates the market.
Their smartwatch is a problem in search of a solution.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: A town that Germany forgot.
 
2016-11-22, 17:19

Couple of things: most ISPs provide modems with built in wireless that just work out of the box. So the bad old days where you got a dumb box that then needed to be connected to a network device are long gone. I recently bought a NAS to provide backup and possibly streaming of shared media/personal cloud access that works natively with Time Machine and Linux/windows equivalents. This has been the standard for some time; after comparing what apple was doing with its time capsules versus where the market is for home network storage, there seems to not have been any reason to even buy the Time capsules when they were first released. Apple ceded this ground for good measure...
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