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iTunes 5.0 speculation
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Jim S.
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2004-11-20, 18:03

I did a search and found that iTunes 4.0 was launched on April 28, 2003. That's almost 19 months ago and we all know that iPods and iTunes are the "big thing" at Apple these days. With Christmas coming, Apple would want to keep people thinking about Apple in order to sell more iPods, music and even gift certificates. It's pure speculation, but they've had plenty of time to create iTunes 5.0 and it sure seems like this would be the perfect time to drop the bomb. What new features do you expect in iTunes 5.0?

I'll kick it off by recalling previous rumors that songs from the iTMS could be downloaded and played for a few times before they would "expire". That would be a big improvement on the 30-second previews.
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ast3r3x
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2004-11-20, 18:22

No way they would do that. Talk about easily stolen. Once the file is in someone else's possession, it's easy for them to keep it.

I would guess the'll be an iTunes 5.0 sometime, but I'm not really sure what it would contain. I mean do we need/even want more features?
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Messiahtosh
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2004-11-20, 18:32

More album art.

Lyrics included in said album art.
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Luca
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2004-11-20, 18:34

Ugh. Just more shit for me to delete.
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SKMDC
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2004-11-20, 18:42

4.7 was a pretty major update to accommodate all the new stores, we may see a 4.8 before christmas, but wouldn't a 5.0 release coincide with a new garageband update? I don't think we'll see 5.0 til Tiger or just before.

"What's a Canadian farm boy to do?"
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DMBand0026
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2004-11-20, 19:01

Features? Pfft...who needs features?

I just want to know what color the new icon will be
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Wrao
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2004-11-20, 19:05

The only thing I really want to see is search by label on the iTMS
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Messiahtosh
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2004-11-20, 19:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao
The only thing I really want to see is search by label on the iTMS
It'd be amazing to search by lyrics as well...
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Jim S.
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2004-11-20, 19:10

It's hard to think this way but iTunes is actually bigger as Windows software than Mac software so I would not anticipate a major connection to Tiger or iLife 2005. Also, the subscription services have figured out a way to make songs "expire" so it seems likely that Apple could do it if they wanted to. One thing I would like is an easier way to synch our different computers with music we buy on one of them.
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DMBand0026
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2004-11-20, 19:18

You are aware that iTunes has a built in sharing function?

Run iTunes on more than one computer on a network, make sure sharing is on (In preferences, in the Sharing pane), than it'll show up on the other computers running iTunes as a shared playlist. Click on the song you bought and hit play, type in your iTMS password, and you're in business.

If you want to copy the actual file...it depends on if you're running Mac or windows. If it's a Mac, it's easier than you think.

Open up your Hard Disc, click on "network" in the sidebar, find the Mac in your house with the music on it, double click, username, password, find your music and copy it over.

Come waste your time with me
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Brad
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2004-11-20, 19:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim S.
Also, the subscription services have figured out a way to make songs "expire" so it seems likely that Apple could do it if they wanted to.
Ah, yes. Those subscription services all use the DRM implementation by Windows Media. Apple would have to completely rewrite the DRM mechanism it's currently using and would have to struggle with the ease-of-use issues.

Remember that one of the biggest reasons behind iPod and iTunes' success is simplicity. You want music on your computer? Click import or buy. Boom, it's yours. End of story. The file is yours forever and you can do anything you want with it. It makes sense to just about any user. Change the freedoms of this formula and start making files behave in seemingly erratic ways, though, and you suddenly throw a gigantic wrench into the works.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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HOM
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2004-11-20, 20:39

I got one simple feature request.

A fucking shuffle feature that actually works!

I did a very unscientific study and found that iTunes shuffle favors iTMS songs then AAC files and finally MP3 in a ration of about 3:2:1.

When the click wheel iPods came out they was so proud of the randomizer. Maybe they should actually implement a randomizer and not the piece of shit that's in there now. You know, stop licking grundle and do your fucking job?

Oh then there is the little thing that has been bothering me since my first iPod circa November 2001. Make the iPod respect a playlist's shuffle setting. This all or nothing iPod shuffle is a fucking embarrassment.

CARTHAGO DELENDA EST

¡Viva La Revolucion!
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BuonRotto
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2004-11-20, 23:59

Sirius or XM radio over IP (with subscription)
more flexible/revamped browse feature
more flexible smart playlist options
ability to order/download CD jackets and/or booklets (not just cover art)
lyric search? I remember some weird RIAA hysteria over this
crossfade burning to audio CDs
separate checkboxes for songs in playlists from the ones in the Library
new album art visualizer plus dashboard/like control a la iPhoto
"smart" ranking system: option for files to gain/lose rank based on play count, number of playlists it's in, average rank for artist tracks, etc.

PS: HOM needs a hug.
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BlueRabbit
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2004-11-21, 02:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMBand0026
Features? Pfft...who needs features?

I just want to know what color the new icon will be
Well, they've already done blue, green and purple. Going by the mini colors, the only one left is yellow/gold/orange. However, they might make it red
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Jim S.
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2004-11-21, 07:48

With all the iTunes/iPod hysteria, I wondered why they would let 19 months go by without a major update. Now I know why. Many of the features that have been listed would take a lot of work to implement. Imagine obtaining and loading over a million sets of lyrics and CD case materials. Many of the other improvements are software tweaks that they could certainly do quickly of they wanted to. I do agree with HOM that simple features like shuffle could use some attention. Regarding how easy it is to keep multiple computers up to date (laptops do travel!), this is the best method I have found which is way to difficult for most people to want to deal with.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93474
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Barto
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2004-11-21, 08:43

The lyrics would be difficult because of the many disreputable web sites hosting them. CD cover art is easy with the Amazon API - Delicious Library uses it, as do many other third party scripts and applications.

There have been so many minor updates to iTunes since 4.0 that it's like the difference between major versions. Apple has never been very consistent with version numbers so I'm not surprised.

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
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Kickaha
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2004-11-21, 13:05

Actually, they've been very consistent since OS X started.

X.0: Major rewrite of the app
x.Y: New features
x.y.Z: Bug fixes, minor tweaks to existing features

It's the common and accepted numbering scheme used in the industry. Well, by everyone but MS.

Until iTunes undergoes a massive revamp under the hood, it won't get the 5.0 moniker. CoreAudio being used instead of QuickTime, for instance, would qualify.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
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Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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DMBand0026
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2004-11-21, 13:44

So there may be a Tiger-only version of iTunes that's designed to take advantage of the core audio functionality?

Hmmm...I might have to buy Tiger.
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Kickaha
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2004-11-21, 13:48

Or QuickTime 7 may indeed turn out to be a unifying task-oriented API over the top of CoreA/V/I, and iTunes will use QT7. Nobody knows at this point.

Interesting times ahead on this front...

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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Hobbes
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2004-11-21, 14:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
Until iTunes undergoes a massive revamp under the hood, it won't get the 5.0 moniker. CoreAudio being used instead of QuickTime, for instance, would qualify.
I'm not so sure about that. They're up to 4.8 already, and they've got to maintain pre-Tiger and Windows compatability...

What would CodeAudio as opposed to QuickTime offer the user? (Honest question. I have no idea.)

I suspect iTunes 5 will have some interesting and stylish new features. A smart rating system would be brilliant. Hierarchical playlists (done in some clean, not-too-confusing Apple way, e.g. "collections") is a given. A way to download liner notes would be enormously appreciated. And a redesigned interface with a dedicated full-height pane to better show album art + album info (esp. with the increasing numbers of letterbox-sized screens) would be great -- though I'm not counting on Apple to mess with success in this dept.

The big addition to the ITMS would be user ratings -- and a link-up to album and band information to something better than, ugh, Muse (too bad AMG's AllMusic is so Windows-friendly. )
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Messiahtosh
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2004-11-21, 14:29

Maybe some interface enhancements? Color scheme changes, things of that nature. All aesthetic updates?
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Kickaha
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2004-11-21, 14:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
I'm not so sure about that. They're up to 4.8 already,
What does that have to do with anything?

After 4.9 comes 4.10, then 4.11. This isn't a decimal number.

Quote:
and they've got to maintain pre-Tiger and Windows compatability...

What would CodeAudio as opposed to QuickTime offer the user? (Honest question. I have no idea.)
Incredibly low latency, less CPU use, less chances for stutter, etc.

Quote:
I suspect iTunes 5 will have some interesting and stylish new features. A smart rating system would be brilliant. Hierarchical playlists (done in some clean, not-too-confusing Apple way, e.g. "collections") is a given. A way to download liner notes would be enormously appreciated. And a redesigned interface with a dedicated full-height pane to better show album art + album info (esp. with the increasing numbers of letterbox-sized screens) would be great -- though I'm not counting on Apple to mess with success in this dept.

The big addition to the ITMS would be user ratings -- and a link-up to album and band information to something better than, ugh, Muse (too bad AMG's AllMusic is so Windows-friendly. )
Windows compatibility will be interesting when they move to CoreAudio. QuickTime only *now* is getting the cross-platform support that it should have had all along, so keeping it cross-platform is a must. How that will happen, I have no idea.

Given Apple's wonderful execution of graceful fallback for new technologies though (if the GPU can't handle a certain new tech, fallback to a software renderer on the CPU, etc), I suspect that QT7 will simply be more powerful on the Mac. The same files will playback on the Windows machines, the same codecs will be supported, etc, etc, etc, but it just may not have quite the performance for intensive content *creation* oriented tasks. Since this is Apple's bread and butter, it makes sense for them to make that the best they can on their side.

QT7 will be the same API on both (all?) platforms, but have different performance capabilities on the different hardware. Core* already has quite a bit of graceful fallback in place, has finally ditched the last of the legacy Toolbox, is finally thread-safe and re-entrant, etc, etc, etc. Basically, it's good to go for cross-platform support as the underlying guts of a new QT7 API suite.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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Brad
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2004-11-21, 14:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMBand0026
So there may be a Tiger-only version of iTunes that's designed to take advantage of the core audio functionality?
Maybe, but not necessarily. While there will certainly be updates to Core Audio in Tiger, it is by far nothing new. Core Audio has been a part of the system since its 10.1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
What would CodeAudio as opposed to QuickTime offer the user?
Oh man, what Kickaha said and then so much more. Core Audio support in iTunes would be a godsend with. For starters, there are oodles of Audio Units and VST plugins it could use "for free." Just fire up a copy of Garageband. Get info on a track, expand the details, and look at the popup menus by effects. See those? You could have all those options and more "for free" in iTunes. If you don't have GB, go download Amadeus II. Open it and under the Effects menu, check out Audio Units and VST Plugins. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

I for one would be ecstatic to see Core Audio properly implemented in QuickTime 7 and iTunes 5. I know that anyone in the prosumer/professional audio category would too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
And a redesigned interface with a dedicated full-height pane to better show album art + album info (esp. with the increasing numbers of letterbox-sized screens) would be great -- though I'm not counting on Apple to mess with success in this dept.
It may not be perfect, but you know resizing the sidebar makes album art larger, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiahtosh
Maybe some interface enhancements? Color scheme changes, things of that nature. All aesthetic updates?
Has Apple ever released a major product update just for aesthetic improvements?

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Hobbes
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2004-11-21, 14:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
What does that have to do with anything?

After 4.9 comes 4.10, then 4.11. This isn't a decimal number.
You know that, and I know that, and officially, no it's not. However, as the version number becomes part of the product name, a certain element of marketing enters into it, and "iTunes 4.7" "feels" far more logical and far less geeky than "iTunes 4.10".

I don't think it's concidence that no major Apple software product (for consumers, not devs) has ever made it past .9.

Anyway, my point is simply that Apple's versioning scheme is subject to marketing / aesthetic considerations, esp. for such an important, spotlighted piece of software such as iTunes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
Windows compatibility will be interesting when they move to CoreAudio... [snip]
Interesting... I've been wondering how they're going pull this off too, but it makes a lot more sense the way you frame it. Thanks.
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Brad
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2004-11-21, 14:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
You know that, and I know that, and officially, no it's not.
And you can't prove that it's not officially that way, though. Just because we haven't seen a case of a dot versions rechine 10 before a major revision is released doesn't mean it can't happen.

Case in point: Open Safari's About window. What is the build number for the current release? v125.11. That eleven looks awfully suspicious there!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
I don't think it's concidence that no major Apple software product (for consumers, not devs) has ever made it past .9.
Because the only products that have reached that far were in the Stone Age before Mac OS X and before a lot of modern, logical thinking was injected into the Apple developer culture. Remember the jump to Mac OS 8.5? How pointless of a marketing device was that? If Apple was still using that mentality, We'd be at Mac OS X 11 by now.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Hobbes
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2004-11-21, 15:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
It may not be perfect, but you know resizing the sidebar makes album art larger, right?
I am, thanks. Not perfect is right -- I find the album art pane an addition that feels somewhat tacked on (as it was) and not yet wholly, satisfyingly integrated.

I'll try to post a mock-up to show what I'd really like later on, if I have a chance.
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Hobbes
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2004-11-21, 15:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
And you can't prove that it's not officially that way, though. Just because we haven't seen a case of a dot versions rechine 10 before a major revision is released doesn't mean it can't happen.

Case in point: Open Safari's About window. What is the build number for the current release? v125.11. That eleven looks awfully suspicious there!!
True, it may happen, but knowing how savvy Apple is regarding its marketing, I somehow suspect that it won't.

The difference between a build number in an About box provided for software and web developers and this -- not to mention a number referred to countless Apple Support documents -- is quite different.

I suspect most people understand "4.7" as a decimal, and would find "4.10" a bit confusing.

Must be a slow Sunday if we're talking about this.
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Kickaha
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2004-11-21, 15:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobbes
I suspect most people understand "4.7" as a decimal, and would find "4.10" a bit confusing.
And yet somehow we all understand what 10.3.6 means, which is utterly bogus as a decimal number...

I think most people are 80% of the way there to understanding it, and just need that little bit of explanation. Certainly something that marketing could handle.

"So good, we cranked it up to 11. iTunes 4.11, available now."

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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Hobbes
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2004-11-21, 15:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
And yet somehow we all understand what 10.3.6 means, which is utterly bogus as a decimal number...
Those periods help, though. 10.3.6 is a lot easier to get than "4.16". It's when the .x or .x.x get into the double digits that the number gets (IMO) awkward-looking and odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
I think most people are 80% of the way there to understanding it, and just need that little bit of explanation. Certainly something that marketing could handle.

"So good, we cranked it up to 11. iTunes 4.11, available now."
Yes, but being forced to explain that your +.01 update is "so good, we cranked it up to 11" is (dare I say) pretty lame.

OK, anyway, no more from me on this one! I'm not in Marketing, just playing one on TV, so perhaps I'm wrong. But I still think we'll see an evolutionary iTunes 5.0 before we see iTunes 4.10.
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Kickaha
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2004-11-21, 15:30

If so, it will, in my estimation, be strictly technology driven, and have nothing to do with marketing.
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