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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2019-12-10, 12:11

It's available to buy, folks.

Bullet points:
  • At first if you clicked on the link it took you to the Trashcan MP page. That's a hell of a bait and switch.
  • The rackmount version is not yet available.
  • Wheels are $400
  • Afterburner is $2000. (Surprisingly reasonable, IMO.)
  • You can configure $25,000 worth of RAM.
  • You can configure it North of $50k if you click all of the big boy boxes.
  • That $50k is sans monitors. So add a couple of the nice ones, you're at $65k.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-12-10, 12:52

Hey, stocking stuffers! I can finish my shopping today!

Interesting that they've not put anything about it on their main home page. I know it's not a mainstream, "regular person" product, but they usually devote a little bit on their homepage to new, or "now available" items, if only for 3-4 days. But they know their target demographic knows where to go to get it, so it's not like iPod socks or something.

I hope this proves to be a popular machine for those who need it. How long has that cylindrical thing been around? Six years? That comment from Phil on stage back then hasn't aged well...you "innovated" yourself right into a bit of an underwhelming failure with no legs/headroom that didn't sell worth a rip, so...

Maybe they'll shut up this go-around and let the machine/performance speak for itself.

$52,748 when I max out all the available hardware options.

As with phones, notebooks, watches, etc. do you think they loaned one of these things to the usual writers/reviewers? Does Gruber have one of these on his desk? I would imagine it loads Safari pages really fast!
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2019-12-10, 14:35

I don't know that Gruber is the target market.

Marco Arment, on the other hand.... (and they gave him a demo 16" MBP, so he's on "the list")

In all seriousness, though: I can't imagine many individuals buying these, but for work, I specify and design AV systems for theatres, and 6-10k is reasonable for a medium to low-end lighting or audio controller. Adding one of these for audio or video playback purposes would be entirely uncontroversial. Looking forward to the rack-mount one showing up, that's more our speed.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2019-12-10, 14:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
As with phones, notebooks, watches, etc. do you think they loaned one of these things to the usual writers/reviewers? Does Gruber have one of these on his desk? I would imagine it loads Safari pages really fast!
MKBHD got one. He rendered video on it almost five times as fast as on the 16-inch MBP.

Maybe they gave Marco Armenia or John Siracusa one?
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-12-10, 14:57

Probably. Expect Siracusa’s 120,000-word review sometime next week, chapters 1-17.

PS - That’s not a slam...back when I was into this stuff a bit more, I always enjoyed his OS X write-ups at Ars Technica(?). I learned more from him than any other individual or website, all those years!

EDIT: First impressions, discussion, etc. from “tech” YouTubers.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2019-12-10 at 23:38.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-12-10, 15:17

One young woman bought the Mac, two displays and two of the stands. The unboxing alone is taking about 25 minutes. Very large, built in handles, etc. As if usually the case, the packaging from Apple is nicer/more “designed” than the finished product from some other companies. This may have been one of the final cluster of things Ive worked on? I guess we’ll know in a year or two.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2019-12-10, 16:02

One thing that's unusual is that they're already preannouncing a spec bump.

Not just the "coming soon" $500 more rack mount variant, but also:

Quote:
Coming soon:
Radeon Pro W5700X with 16GB of GDDR6 memory
Two Radeon Pro W5700X with 16GB of GDDR6 memory each

Coming soon:
8TB SSD storage
It makes sense because the Mac Pro as introduced today ships with the previous-generation Vega AMD graphics and up to 4 TB SSD, whereas 16-inch MacBook Pro already offers Navi graphics and up to 8 TB SSD.

I wouldn't be surprised if "soon" means February-ish, and:
  • that day, they just upgrade all graphics options as mentioned above, at the same pricing as before;
  • likewise, they just double each SSD option. That means it'll go from 512 to 8 rather than 256 to 4, and it also means it will no longer start at 256 (which is dumb);
  • aaaaaand maybe they'll also upgrade the iMac Pro that day. The iMac Pro could now get Xeon W-2200 chips, could also use nicer graphics, and of course the various additions to RAM and SSD.

(Wildcard: the Mac Pro now comes with a new silver/black keyboard/trackpad/mouse color scheme. Will they move the iMac Pro to this? Will they eventually get rid of one of these three colors, or will they eventually offer the Magic * in all three variants?)
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-12-10, 16:14

I saw those "coming soon" options as well...a first. They never let those cats out of the bag like that. I wonder if it'll hurt sales? People thinking "hell, I've waited this long, what's another few months..."?

Interesting. I wonder why they'd do that, knowing it may encourage further fence-sitting/waiting?

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2019-12-10 at 23:39.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2019-12-10, 16:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
(Wildcard: the Mac Pro now comes with a new silver/black keyboard/trackpad/mouse color scheme. Will they move the iMac Pro to this? Will they eventually get rid of one of these three colors, or will they eventually offer the Magic * in all three variants?)
Wow, good eye on that.
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chucker
 
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2019-12-10, 16:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Wow, good eye on that.
I can’t take the credit. MKBHD talked about it. And the order page makes it clear that these are (currently) exclusive to a new MP order.
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surjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the hands of Apple.
 
2019-12-10, 23:56

Pricing Aside - I edit 4K video/Drone/And some Premade Animation graphics. - Currently I have. 5K Late 2015 iMac, it's slooooing my down. Will the new 16 " MBP be able to do a better job, or should I keep my already placed order for the 12 Core Mac Pro and then have to buy a monitor as well - I do a lot of Photography as well - so it would be nice not have to travel with this sucker. but I travel with the iMac now. soooo help a brotha out!
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chucker
 
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2019-12-11, 06:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I saw those "coming soon" options as well...a first. They never let those cats out of the bag like that. I wonder if it'll hurt sales? People thinking "hell, I've waited this long, what's another few months..."?

Interesting. I wonder why they'd do that, knowing it may encourage further fence-sitting/waiting?
It's unusual of them to do, and does theoretically risk the Osborne effect, but in practice, I don't think so.

Some people will be content with the current Mac Pro line-up. They've waited for years, and now get an extremely powerful (and pricey) machine. Others will wait another few months* for better (and I'm guessing cheaper) BTO options. This does mean Apple will miss out on some revenue for the December quarter, sure. But it'll be an extremely small slice (0.1%, if even that), and of that slice, most people will eventually buy in the next quarter. In the meantime, Apple won't run out of money (unlike Osborne), and those people are also unlikely to not buy the Mac Pro altogether because of the pre-announced options.

So it's unusual, yeah, but the risk is rather small.

*) Siracusa asks:

Quote:
If anyone at Apple knows when the “coming soon” Radeon Pro W5700X GPU option will be available for purchase on the Mac Pro, please let me know. Will it be before the December 31 cutoff on the Apple Card 6% cash back deal? (Twitter DM or email my last name at Gmail.)
Surely if they could ship these new options before December 31, they would've just offered them on the 10th and not bothered with the original revision.

I don't expect these options to appear before mid-January at the earliest.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-12-11, 11:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by surjones View Post
Pricing Aside - I edit 4K video/Drone/And some Premade Animation graphics. - Currently I have. 5K Late 2015 iMac, it's slooooing my down. Will the new 16 " MBP be able to do a better job, or should I keep my already placed order for the 12 Core Mac Pro and then have to buy a monitor as well - I do a lot of Photography as well - so it would be nice not have to travel with this sucker. but I travel with the iMac now. soooo help a brotha out!
The 16" MBP is quite a lot faster than your 2015 iMac in every way. Storage, RAM, CPU, GPU, bus. Literally everything is better (except maybe screen size) and obviously the portability factor should be considered. Current testing seems to indicate the new Mac Pro is about twice as fast as the MBP, which is saying more about the laptop than the desktop! If I were you—and I were traveling—I'd opt for the laptop w/32GB RAM and a good portable SSD. That Mac Pro is gonna be heavy. In fact, it's going to be a lot heavier than your iMac, especially considering you have to lug around a display as well.

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chucker
 
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2019-12-11, 12:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by surjones View Post
Currently I have. 5K Late 2015 iMac, it's slooooing my down.
How much RAM? Fusion Drive, or SSD?
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surjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the hands of Apple.
 
2019-12-11, 21:18

thanks for the feedback! I'm gonna keep the Mac Pro 12 Core - I actually found someone who needed money locally and picked up a MacBook Pro i9 6 Core with 32gb RAM, and 52gb SSD for $2300.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-12-20, 10:29

I don't think drive performance is going to be much of an issue with these new Mac Pro's. I mean, sheesh!

If you buy a new Mac Pro, don't bother upgrading the internal storage from Apple. Just buy smoking-hot and inexpensive PCIe cards!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2019-12-20, 11:08

That's a nice product.

Such a shame Intel doesn't have PCIe 4 ready, or it could be way faster, yet!
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-12-20, 12:08

Is PCIe the bottleneck? I suppose it depends on the number of lanes. PCI 3 can run at 1GB/lane, so a 16 lane slot could handle 16GB/s, theoretically. I think the limit on OWC's product is the number of SSD's on the board more so than PCI (the card uses 4 SSD's to deliver 6GB/s, so I suspect that is really the max number of SSD's). It appears that OWC is using an 8 lane card, but multiple cards can be pared together in RAID for even faster performance (12GB/s x 2 cards—yikes).

Maybe?

Either way, 6GB/s is approaching RAM speeds from not very long ago.

Update: Actually, OWC is using a x4 slot, so that's weird that they are getting 6GB/s.

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Last edited by kscherer : 2019-12-20 at 12:22.
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2019-12-27, 17:11

Yeah... Intel has lost the race with AMD on this (and other) fronts. I think they've misplaced their research investments too far forward, failed, and have had little to bank on when 'things-that-should-have-worked' didn't. Next year's processor releases will be telling as AMD is primed for doubling core counts on the same architecture and Intel is groaning with age. This has left AMD with more space to incorporate improved throughput technology.

It would be interesting if Apple can get out of the apparent exclusivity contract with Intel to provide more consistent, perhaps back and forth, upgrades on their pro-hardware.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2019-12-27, 18:06

Intel has moved its focus from the home/small business space, to mobile, AI compute servers, their upcoming dedicated GPUs are the big new development in this space. While the failure to move from 14nm to 10nm the last few years has hurt them, what really got them was shifting resources elsewhere, along side the performance loss from firmware/hardware problems in their CPUs, spectator/meltdown and so on. It's only the next generation chips that will finally deal with these on a hardware level.

Is Intel losing the desktop CPU market now? Yes. Do they care? Not sure, it is a quickly shrinking market. What I don't get is the lack of focus on improving in the high end sever space, but I suppose the compute focused GPU's are supposed to kick AMD Radeon in the pants and finished what Nvidia started years ago. I suspect Intel's real focus is moving to compete with CUDA and Nvidia's AI servers, which will have a big impact in the future.
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2020-01-27, 06:50

It does look like Apple priced the MacPro to take advantage of studios that aren't able or willing to switch over to custom built solutions. On paper the machines are not worth what they are being sold for, even with the high build quality.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2020-01-27, 07:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
One thing that's unusual is that they're already preannouncing a spec bump.

Not just the "coming soon" $500 more rack mount variant, but also:



It makes sense because the Mac Pro as introduced today ships with the previous-generation Vega AMD graphics and up to 4 TB SSD, whereas 16-inch MacBook Pro already offers Navi graphics and up to 8 TB SSD.

I wouldn't be surprised if "soon" means February-ish, and:
  • that day, they just upgrade all graphics options as mentioned above, at the same pricing as before;
  • likewise, they just double each SSD option. That means it'll go from 512 to 8 rather than 256 to 4, and it also means it will no longer start at 256 (which is dumb);
  • aaaaaand maybe they'll also upgrade the iMac Pro that day. The iMac Pro could now get Xeon W-2200 chips, could also use nicer graphics, and of course the various additions to RAM and SSD.
So, I was wrong both in optimistic and pessimistic ways.
  • The SSD option became available on Dec 19th, just nine days later. Weird. I guess they wanted to open up regular sales ASAP and weren't quite sure yet if they could offer the SSD before Christmas? Some last-minute firmware bug, maybe? Otherwise, why bother with the delay at all? So odd.
  • Then came the rackmount option, but the GPU option isn't there yet.
  • It's looking increasingly unclear if there will be a new iMac Pro at all, ever. They might just merge it with the regular iMac. Add the Pro's better cooling, and use Comet Lake-S to go up to ten cores, and the iMac Pro becomes a much thinner niche.*

*) The answer if you benefit from eighteen cores during regular use is almost certainly no. Almost all software today still isn't even remotely parallelizable like that.
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chucker
 
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2020-01-27, 07:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky View Post
It does look like Apple priced the MacPro to take advantage of studios that aren't able or willing to switch over to custom built solutions. On paper the machines are not worth what they are being sold for, even with the high build quality.
It's gonna have extremely low volume no matter the pricing (well, I suppose a $1,199 Mac Pro might've had more volume, but that was never in the cards) because a tower computer just isn't something most people buy.

The real argument here is "Apple should replace the Mac mini with a machine whose internals are upgradeable", and it's been clear for a decade and a half that Apple just isn't into that. You want the "xMac", and Apple doesn't want to create it. (And there was clearly a time where they didn't even want to create any tower at all, no matter the price…)
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-27, 10:50

Anyone have any info on the sales/success of this thing, even anecdotal, “I know a guy who ordered four for his shop” stuff?

It’s the most expensive and niche/limited-appeal thing they make, so I can’t help but be curious about all that. It isn’t targeted for the weekend duffers so I doubt anyone here is looking to buy, but has anyone heard how it’s doing in real life amongst the crowd it’s supposedly made for?

I no longer run in those circles, so I would have no way of knowing like I might’ve 10 or so years ago.

I’d sure hate for this to be a replay of Phil’s ass-innovating trash can because if it is, Apple is probably out of the desktop and “pro” racket forever. If they didn’t get this one right either, after 4-6 years of design/testing, that’s gonna be a tough swallow for some.

I hope it does well. As well as can be expected for what it is, who it’s for, what it costs, etc. I have a feeling it’ll be drastically cheaper in just 10-12 months from now.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-27, 11:18

I had a $12,000 rig sold the other day, but then we sorted out that his Adobe Magic Muffin Maker® isn't yet Catalina compatible*, so it went down the tubes.

I have two others slated for the June-ish time frame.

Otherwise, zero sales and zero interest.

*2019 Mac Pros are firmware locked to 10.15+

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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-27, 16:02

Follow-up question (for anyone): does this thing cost what it does because it does, or because they can?

I know how it stacks up against other known, accepted high-end professional workstations and that, in some quarters, it's seen as a real bargain. But I'm not asking about that.

I'm asking, in and of itself, is it priced fairly/reasonably (weird, loaded question when talking about Apple), or are they asking what they hope they can get (and playing to the target demo, their purchasing budgets, etc.). Could this be priced cheaper, or is Apple "barely breaking even" (as if)?

Is there any legit reason(s) that display stand costs $999, other than "because we're Apple and we can ask that with a straight face"?

What, exactly, are people paying for? Performance? Expansion/upgradeability/"legs"? Stylish design? A bit of all three? When would a machine like this get replaced? Two years? Five? More? Or do high-end, successful firms make these sorts of purchases yearly?

Again, I'm not in the target market for this, so I have questions like this that I never have/would about an iMac, MacBook Air, etc. I know it's a whole other ballgame, etc.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-27, 16:47

I just set up a demo LG display that offers elevation, tilt and rotate. The stand is plastic, feels cheap, and is terribly inaccurate as far as level and 90 degree stops are concerned (actually there are no stops), and the display can be rotated about 93 degrees in one direction, and back the other way 94 degrees. Getting it just level is difficult. The lift is on a vertical slider that holds the display in place, but it feels like it's running on old bearings. It sits on a round base about 12" in diameter and rotation is smooth-ish,

So, how much is a good monitor stand worth?

I'll leave that up to the individual who is buying one.

But!

High-quality, precision machined aluminum is not cheap, and neither are high-quality counter balances. Since Apple is shooting for the upper end of this market, it is no surprise that they are using a significantly higher quality stand than can be had from the normal players. That said, let's figure in Apple standard margins, which are roughly 38%. That means the cost to build one of these things is probably in the neighborhood of $600! Apple makes more on accessories, so I'll be generous and drop that to $500. Keep in mind that this number represents the cost of manufacturing, and does not include R&D, administration, marketing, etc. I would guess that the entire cost is closer to $700, so Apple is making $300 or so on each stand they sell.

There is also a secondary cost to such things: Most people are likely mounting the XDR display on pre-existing VESA arms/mounts and are not buying the stand from Apple. That means that quantities of scale do not exist such that the things can get much cheaper.

To answer your question, the stand costs a lot because it does.

Same with the Mac Pro. Apple won't be selling many of those things, so the costs cannot be brought down through economies of scale. Ferrari doesn't sell many Ferrari's, and Lamborghini doesn't sell many Lamborghini's. They're expensive because they're limited production. And because people are willing to pay more for limited high-performance things that are similar to commodity things, but with mostly higher performance characteristics in very specific usage scenarios.

Also, the biggest complainers are looking for the xMac, which—as was pointed out—is simply not going to materialize. It is no longer worth the argument—or complaint—about such things. It doesn't exist because Apple cannot find a profitable reason to build it. The Mac Pro is expensive because Apple is a for-profit company.

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Dr. Bobsky
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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2020-01-27, 17:12

If you really look into the component costs, Apple is gouging its customers on this one. I wonder why...
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-02-27, 10:45

You’re rolling it wrong.

The $400(!) wheels for the new Mac Pro don’t have any sort of locking feature.



While I realize wheeled models aren’t likely to be placed on desks, you just know there will be some hapless schmo who does so and returns from lunch to see his new tower on the floor, lying on its side, with sparks and smoke coming out of it.

Nice one, Apple. Tell me, is that a Jony Ive special?

“We didn’t want the pristine circular form to be interrupted. The beauty of these wheels is in the unobstructed discovery of a wandering Mac Pro. So pure in its simplicity. It’s one of the best products we’ve ever made...”.

On the bright side, for those who didn’t feel quite bent-over enough at the prospect of a $1,000 display stand, you can shell out $400 for the privilege of chasing your new workstation around the room.

Think different, indeed. Any lame-ass PC owner can have a workstation that just sits in one place.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall at Apple hardware support!

“So what seems to be the problem today, Mr. Randall?”

“The problem, dickwit, is that you don’t sell a deluxe $600 set of wheels that, oh I don’t know...LOCK?!? But no worries...the box these $400 wheels come in also make a fine little stop-block...if you squint, it’s almost elegant! BTW, tell that Jony fella to go fu....”

*click*

Apple. We’re Just Trolling You People At This Point. And You’ll Like It.
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