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PB PM
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2020-11-10, 13:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Nothing to do with fastest. "Instant On" for laptops was one of the original tentpole features of Mac OS X.
The point I was making is that it's not like any of Apple's marketing points are new. Nothing more.
 
kscherer
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2020-11-10, 13:43

The chime is back!!!!!
 
PB PM
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2020-11-10, 13:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
...but that is what the fan is for.
More space means more airflow, that means it runs cooler. This isn't rocket science.
 
pscates2.0
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2020-11-10, 13:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Burning through products here... still hoping they introduce another chip and an iMac.
I was wondering/hoping about that...a true "one more thing" to a One More Thing event.

It's only been 45 minutes. Maybe this is a short one, though.

That would be a whopper...a new, redesigned iMac out of nowhere.

But Tim sounds like he's wrapping it up...

EDIT. He was. It's over. 45 minutes. Hell, they all should be this tight/focused...
 
Brave Ulysses
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2020-11-10, 13:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
The point I was making is that it's not like any of Apple's marketing points are new. Nothing more.
dont see that point being made here:
Quote:
Okay, instant wake from sleep that is awesome.
but I guess some are easily impressed.
 
kscherer
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2020-11-10, 13:47

I love it.

One more thing!

Great presentation. Short, straight to the point. Well done.
 
Brave Ulysses
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2020-11-10, 13:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I was wondering/hoping about that...a true "one more thing" to a One More Thing event.

It's only been 45 minutes. Maybe this is a short one, though.

That would be a whopper...a new, redesigned iMac out of nowhere.

But Tim sounds like he's wrapping it up...

EDIT. He was. It's over. 45 minutes. Hell, they all should be this tight/focused...
Hopefully it's a promising thing for a redesign that an iMac was not released.
 
PB PM
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2020-11-10, 13:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
dont see that point being made here:


but I guess some are easily impressed.
Guess you didn't read any of my other comments in this thread at all. Apple finally having instant wake from sleep was the only thing that did impress me, everything else was meh.

My general impression, Apple is on par with AMD Ryzen mobile 4000 chips on mobile and on pair with Ryzen 5000 for desktop. Good, sure. Mind blowing, no.
 
turtle
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2020-11-10, 13:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
More space means more airflow, that means it runs cooler. This isn't rocket science.
I do agree... and that is where heat pipes and other thermal management comes into play. I get that they liked the shape of the current mini, but it could easily be made smaller and maintain the same performance/thermals. If the teardown shows it with that much wasted space then I totally see them shrinking it. Having torn minis down on multiple occasions I can say the airflow pattern doesn't need more space. It pulls from the bottom and exhausts out the back. All the void is wasted.

I mean, unless they let us add internal SATA/PCIe drives to it. I don't expect that to happen though.

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pscates2.0
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2020-11-10, 13:58

It was the three most basic, consumer-level Macs - the Air and Mac mini, and, some would argue, the 13" MacBook Pro - getting things first. It make take the full 18+ months before they're ready to unveil a beefier, more capable Mac (the iMac, 16" MacBook Pro and the Mac Pro).

The iMac will mostly likely be accompanied by a redesign. That rumor from last week talks about the Mac Pro getting smaller, and I'm better a 16" MacBook Pro gets a redesign/tweak (accompanied by a redone 13" on the same day). These might all take well into 2021, who knows.

But a ton of people buy/use the Air and 13" MacBook Pro, so today's announcements will appeal to a plenty of buyers. And, timing-wise, it works out. I imagine the new Air being a strong seller for many.

Mac mini is silver again. That's nice.

That $999 256GB MacBook Air BTO'd to 16GB RAM is $1,199. Is that cheaper than before? They don't offer any CPU options, but hasn't that been the case for a while anyway on this model? I can't remember.

If all they said about the MacBook Air in that presentation is true/holds up, that's a nice little notebook for $1,200.
 
pscates2.0
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-11-10, 14:06

Ahhh...only the two lower-end 13" MacBook Pros got the M1. The other two models with twice the RAM, the faster processors, etc. ($1,799 and $1,999) are still Intel-based, so it wasn't the entire lineup of the 13" MacBook Pro models, so it was a very consumer-oriented rollout/announcement.

They're saving the heavy hitters - maybe they're just not quite there yet, or they wanted to get these more affordable models out into the world before the holiday buying season - for later. Interesting.

But it points to good things that nothing went up, price-wise.

It's odd...nothing to go by, clock speed-wise. I know that isn't the end-all/be-all of buying a computer, but that's how one's always kinda judged things..."oh, this is 1.4GHz, and this other, for $300 is 2.2GHz...", etc.
 
PB PM
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2020-11-10, 14:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I do agree... and that is where heat pipes and other thermal management comes into play. I get that they liked the shape of the current mini, but it could easily be made smaller and maintain the same performance/thermals. If the teardown shows it with that much wasted space then I totally see them shrinking it. Having torn minis down on multiple occasions I can say the airflow pattern doesn't need more space. It pulls from the bottom and exhausts out the back. All the void is wasted.

I mean, unless they let us add internal SATA/PCIe drives to it. I don't expect that to happen though.
I know what it looks like, I upgraded drives and RAM in my 2012 Mac mini a few times. I also looked at tear downs of the 2018, which I also have. Airflow is poor at best, as it is extremely restricted, thermal throttled the CPU constantly and thus heavily limited performance, without using third party fan speed controllers that helped a little. The new models having more internal space is a very good thing.
 
turtle
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2020-11-10, 14:30

I have to say it was funny seeing "PC" come back on at the end too. I used to love those commercials.
 
turtle
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2020-11-10, 15:35

The Intel mini is still available to order. That is nice for those who need Intel for certain things.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 15:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
As we've talked about there before, the iMac has been distilled down to about all it can really be...the very thing Steve poo-pooed during the introduction of the iMac G4 in January 2002 (a flat screen with the guts glommed onto the back). Materials/sizes aside, that's been pretty much the iMac we've had since September 2004 with the iMac G5 unveiling.

20 years ago, they had color, translucency, curves, etc. to work with. Nothing seemed "off limits" during that cool period (the iEra, I've always called it...1998-2001). For better or worse, things just aren't that way anymore. The aluminum iMac, as we've known it since about 2007, seems pretty dialed-in.

Other than tweaking proportions and some chin removal (but that's never really bothered me the way it seems to others), I'm really not sure what they could do to the iMac that wouldn't come across as either "trying too hard" or "change for the sake of change"...neither of which I'm a big fan of. They're certainly not going to go back to colors and curves/swoops. All they're probably interested in doing at this point is removing more ports or "distractions" (although, that might've been Ive and his obsessions; with him gone, perhaps that mindset left with him and whoever's running that department now isn't so averse to functionality/utility).

"We've distilled the iMac down to a single 28" hunk of aluminum, at only 4mm thick and with no ports whatsoever." - Jony Ive, 2024 (assuming he'd stuck around).

The one thing I have wanted to see is some sort of adjustability. The nicest thing about the iMac G4 was that ability to put the display wherever/however you wanted. I used that feature/capability all the time, based on what I was doing at the moment. Sometimes I'd want it up, straight and eye level, and others I'd lower/tilt it. When someone came over and I wanted to show them something I was working on, I'd just rotate it over to them with a finger push. I don't know if others got into that feature as much, but it's the one part of that model that I miss.

That crazy-ass $1,000 stand they have now provides much of that (up and down and forward/backward tilt), but they'd have to figure out a way do incorporate that into an AIO without adding some crazy sum to the price...so I'm not holding my breath on that.

But I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of return to the iMac G4 philosophy...where the guts are in some compact, separate lower section that also serves as the base (it would have to be wide/heavy enough to securely support a 21.5"-27" display, of course), and then a "floating", infinitely-adjustable display - as thin/light as possible since it's no longer having to house the entire computer itself - above it. Although that that point, why not just sell the small base unit itself, as the mythical "headless iMac"?
Jason Snell kind of dug into this. He speculates part of the reason the iMac G4 arm didn't make it to newer Macs (aside from a lessened version in the 6K display) is that, due to physics, it worked well for 15- and 17-inch models, but 21- and 27-inch models simply are too heavy.

As for colors, not looking good based on this first batch of ARM Macs. Grey, darker grey, gold-like grey.

OTOH, there's the iPad Air, and maybe we'll see some of that?
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 15:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Okay, instant wake from sleep that is awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Nothing to do with fastest. "Instant On" for laptops was one of the original tentpole features of Mac OS X.
Best as I can tell, sleep/wakeup got a lot worse in the switch from PowerPC to Intel, and is about to get better again.

Perhaps it's a matter of chipsets — PowerPC Macs had an Apple chipset; Intel ones never did.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 15:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
My general impression, Apple is on par with AMD Ryzen mobile 4000 chips on mobile and on pair with Ryzen 5000 for desktop. Good, sure. Mind blowing, no.
lol, no. Ryzen Mobile 4000 is pathetic in single-threaded performance. Even Intel does way better than that. The fastest mobile Ryzen scores 1093. A midrange Intel Tiger Lake UP3 does 1422. iPhone 12 does 1583. A MacBook Air will be at least on par with the iPhone 12; probably faster.

It's only in multi-core where Ryzen Mobile beats Intel.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 16:17

(They do seem really defensive about how much faster than Intel they are.)
 
kscherer
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2020-11-10, 16:40

If anyone cares, the M1 page at Apple has the specific chip comparisons at the bottom of the page.

This bit is especially interesting:
Quote:
3. Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13‑inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip and 16GB of RAM measuring peak single-thread performance of workloads taken from select industry-standard benchmarks, commercial applications, and open source applications. Comparison made against the highest-performing CPUs for notebooks commercially available at the time of testing. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of MacBook Pro.
Of note, performance numbers for the Air and the Pro appear to be drastically different in these comparisons (the Air is compared to the 1.2GHz Intel i7, while the Pro is compared to the fastest portable chip available, and I assume this is the 8-core i9?). This appears to be the result of the fan, and makes it possible that the M1 is clocked higher in the Mini/Pro to take advantage of this?

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chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 17:29

That's still really vague, and (not that I'm surprised) several comparisons are against Intel Macs, which don't use Intel's latest stuff.
 
kscherer
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2020-11-10, 17:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
That's still really vague, and (not that I'm surprised) several comparisons are against Intel Macs, which don't use Intel's latest stuff.
Well, "up to 2x faster" than an Intel 8-core i9 is still something.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 17:39

No eGPU support on the M1.

My guess/hope is this is an M1-specific thing.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 17:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Well, "up to 2x faster" than an Intel 8-core i9 is still something.
It is!

And Intel kind of deserves it. But, a few months from now, they'll have a much nicer 8-core i9.
 
kscherer
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2020-11-10, 17:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
It is!

And Intel kind of deserves it. But, a few months from now, they'll have a much nicer 8-core i9.
Yes. And it will still suck at power consumption—by comparison—and Apple would only use it in a $2800 machine. So, a $1300 laptop is going to be faster than/equal to a $2800 laptop (again, in Apple's lineup), even with Intel's next chip. GPU performance may not quite be there, but gen1 being that close?

Sheesh!

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709
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2020-11-10, 18:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
No eGPU support on the M1.

My guess/hope is this is an M1-specific thing.
Oof. I wonder if that's just a GPU thing or if all breakout boxes won't work.
 
pscates2.0
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2020-11-10, 18:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Jason Snell kind of dug into this. He speculates part of the reason the iMac G4 arm didn't make it to newer Macs (aside from a lessened version in the 6K display) is that, due to physics, it worked well for 15- and 17-inch models, but 21- and 27-inch models simply are too heavy.

As for colors, not looking good based on this first batch of ARM Macs. Grey, darker grey, gold-like grey.

OTOH, there's the iPad Air, and maybe we'll see some of that?
To be clear, I'm not expecting/wanting the exact iMac G4 cylindrical chrome arm, but just something that allows for nice adjustability. Even a cheaper, "dumbed down" version of what they're using on the Mac Pro and its accompanying display, or some new design altogether. That thing holds a large 32" display, something no iMac is ever going to come with (anytime soon). But if it just adds cost to an already pricey machine, I'll pass. The iMac does tilt up and down, so I guess that's enough. The iMac G4, with the raise/lower and swivel/rotate just spoiled me, and I've longed for that sort of thing to return again...but, after 16 years, I'm likely pissing up a rope and just need to move on, I suppose...

Also, I'm not calling for colors and all to come back. They had their time, and it worked with the materials, shapes and "fun" of that period. I'm okay with silver and space gray.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2020-11-10 at 19:20.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 18:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Oof. I wonder if that's just a GPU thing or if all breakout boxes won't work.
Well, it does have Tb4*.

*) technically, they say Thunderbolt / USB 4, but… that means at least Thunderbolt 3.
 
chucker
 
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2020-11-10, 18:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Also, I'm not calling for colors and all to come back. They had their time, and it worked with the materials, shapes and "fun" of that period. I'm okay with silver and space gray.
I think it's really boring after a decade and a half of glass in front of aluminum, and I think the iPad Air and iPhone Pro show that you can look classy and still do colors.
 
kscherer
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2020-11-10, 19:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I think it's really boring after a decade and a half of glass in front of aluminum, and I think the iPad Air and iPhone Pro show that you can look classy and still do colors.
This.

The next design language update will reflect that.
 
PB PM
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2020-11-10, 20:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
lol, no. Ryzen Mobile 4000 is pathetic in single-threaded performance. Even Intel does way better than that. The fastest mobile Ryzen scores 1093. A midrange Intel Tiger Lake UP3 does 1422. iPhone 12 does 1583. A MacBook Air will be at least on par with the iPhone 12; probably faster.

It's only in multi-core where Ryzen Mobile beats Intel.
At the end of the day the multi-core is what matters more for most applications today, so what's your point? We have no proof yet that the M1 beats Intel on single core either.
 
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