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The iPhone SE thread (for 2021 and beyond models)


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The iPhone SE thread (for 2021 and beyond models)
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PB PM
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2021-12-22, 09:19

Apple, please kill the physical home button already. SE would be a great phone to have otherwise, cheaper price fits the phone replacement cycle a lot better than the high end models.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2021-12-22, 10:10

Those spending $1,000+ every year for a new phone are a) nuts and b) doing it wrong.

Eh, it’s their money, I don’t care. But what a tail-chasing waste all around. There ain’t that much difference year-to-year.

Three years is always my target (I shot past that a bit this go-around ), but three years is nice because you can get the typical full two years of good battery life, then, at the start of year three you pay for a replacement. And when you go to sell it a year later, you can use that new battery as a selling point…”only one year old”. I’ve done this and people seem to appreciate it, and feel a bit better about buying a three-year-old phone (mind you, I’m not looking to churn or get full price back; that ship has sailed…but I’m happy to sell my iPhone to someone who may not have $399 - let alone $699+ - to drop on a phone). I’m happy to help someone get a well-taken-care-of iPhone with all the original packaging/accessories (and a fairly new battery) for under $200.

That’s the world/circles I live in.

And then when you go to get your new phone, after three years you’ll actually notice a real difference/improvement…processor, display, camera, storage, possible new design, battery life, faster cellular/WiFi, etc. things that truly improve or step up over the course of 2-3 years. Just feels like a bigger impact/bang-for-one’s-phone-buying-dollar.

None of that shit is noticeable, year to year and it just seems like you’re flinging $1,000 out the window just to own “the latest”.

And that’s fine…but it isn’t normal or sane.

But as long as you’re not using my money, do what makes you happy.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
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2021-12-22, 10:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Apple, please kill the physical home button already. SE would be a great phone to have otherwise, cheaper price fits the phone replacement cycle a lot better than the high end models.
It’ll get there. Probably on the true “third-generation” release in a year or two.

All those MacRumors articles I post keep calling this upcoming 2022 one the “third generation SE”, but it’s really just a Rev. B of the current 4.7”/iPhone 8-based SE. Changing processors and cellular radio don’t add up to “next generation”, when everything else remains the same.

IMO, it won’t be third-gen until it comes in a design/form not based on the iPhone 8. Until then it’s just under-the-hood updates and improvements to a solid, proven existing model. Appreciated and welcome, absolutely, but nothing all-new, “next generation” about it.

The one wild card (horse?) in all this is “who says the SE has to go 3-4 years between major updates?” I’d love to be surprised in early 2022 by a redesigned, full-face iPhone SE like I’ve spoken about unthread. I’m not expecting it, no. But I’d certainly give myself whiplash and a torn rotator cuff lunging for my wallet.

Hell, I might have to be the butt of my own jokes and camp out in front of the store or something if that was the new 2022 model!
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PB PM
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2021-12-22, 10:32

To me the ideal would be 4-5 years, but that seems hard to do, something always seems to break before that.

iPhone 4, dead home button. No more software updates.(3 years)
iPhone 5c, battery died, not worth replacing (2 years). In-laws took it, replaced battery, got another year out of it. Died again.
iPhone 6s, battery died, bulged nearly nuked screen (3 1/2 years)
1st Xs, 2 1/2 years, battery died, bulged nuked screen. Apple replaced.
2nd Xs 2 months… we’ll see how long it lasts
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chucker
 
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2021-12-22, 10:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Those spending $1,000+ every year for a new phone are a) nuts and b) doing it wrong.

Eh, it’s their money, I don’t care. But what a tail-chasing waste all around. There ain’t that much difference year-to-year.
I mostly agree. I get a new one every two years. The jump from 3G to 4S was massive, but the jumps from 8 to 11 and 11 to 13 mostly weren't that impressive, especially since you do get free software upgrades anyway.

One thing the 11 did change dramatically compared to the 8 was low-light photography. The 13 Pro adds macro, and I'm hoping my next one — the 15, I suppose — will have that in the non-Pro as well. Maybe even telephoto, if I'm lucky.

But if you're a hardcore high-end photographer, then it might be valid to use the Pro, and to upgrade that each year. I wouldn't recommend it for most people, though. Two, three, or even four years is perfectly fine.
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PB PM
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2021-12-22, 10:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
But if you're a hardcore high-end photographer, then it might be valid to use the Pro, and to upgrade that each year. I wouldn't recommend it for most people, though. Two, three, or even four years is perfectly fine.
If your a hard core photographer, the iPhone isn’t your primary camera. There’s no magic that’s going to cure the tiny sensor. They are way better, but the lenses still kind of suck.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-22, 10:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
To me the ideal would be 4-5 years, but that seems hard to do, something always seems to break before that.

iPhone 4, dead home button. No more software updates.(3 years)
iPhone 5c, battery died, not worth replacing (2 years). In-laws took it, replaced battery, got another year out of it. Died again.
iPhone 6s, battery died, bulged nearly nuked screen (3 1/2 years)
1st Xs, 2 1/2 years, battery died, bulged nuked screen. Apple replaced.
2nd Xs 2 months… we’ll see how long it lasts
Yikes. That’s a lot of crazy, bad stuff. All I’ve ever dealt with is a depleted battery life/performance after about two years of solid use. And that’s easily addressed if I choose to.
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PB PM
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2021-12-22, 10:44

It is crazy, compared to my iPads. My third gen iPad from 2011 still works. Not really usable anymore, but the battery life is still good! 2017 iPad, still works, good battery life.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-22, 10:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I mostly agree. I get a new one every two years. The jump from 3G to 4S was massive, but the jumps from 8 to 11 and 11 to 13 mostly weren't that impressive, especially since you do get free software upgrades anyway.

One thing the 11 did change dramatically compared to the 8 was low-light photography. The 13 Pro adds macro, and I'm hoping my next one — the 15, I suppose — will have that in the non-Pro as well. Maybe even telephoto, if I'm lucky.

But if you're a hardcore high-end photographer, then it might be valid to use the Pro, and to upgrade that each year. I wouldn't recommend it for most people, though. Two, three, or even four years is perfectly fine.
Yeah, there may be specific scenarios out there. I’m just talkin go about normal, regular folks constantly swapping their phones out every time Tim Cook farts. They barely have it long enough, one year, to truly appreciate it or use it to its full capacity.

I have a cousin, and a couple of friends, who aren’t professional, demanding anytnings, believe me, and yet they get the pricey ones every single year, in some way or another (I probably don’t wanna know). And, on occasion, they’ll bitch and squawk about the cost or “how it ain’t that much different”, to which I get to reply “well no shit…ya think? I believe I’ve only been saying this forever. Why don’t you just get one every other year, or even three, and ease up on the throttle a bit?”

The look on their faces is the same as if they’d been shot out of a cannon.

“Well then, eat Ramen for the rest of your life…”.
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chucker
 
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2021-12-22, 11:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
If your a hard core photographer, the iPhone isn’t your primary camera.
I never said "primary"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
There’s no magic that’s going to cure the tiny sensor. They are way better, but the lenses still kind of suck.
Enjoy carrying around ten pounds of $5k gear for situations when a high-end smartphone would have been enough, I guess?
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chucker
 
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2021-12-22, 11:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Yeah, there may be specific scenarios out there. I’m just talkin go about normal, regular folks constantly swapping their phones out every time Tim Cook farts. They barely have it long enough, one year, to truly appreciate it or use it to its full capacity.

I have a cousin, and a couple of friends, who aren’t professional, demanding anytnings, believe me, and yet they get the pricey ones every single year, in some way or another (I probably don’t wanna know). And, on occasion, they’ll bitch and squawk about the cost or “how it ain’t that much different”, to which I get to reply “well no shit…ya think? I believe I’ve only been saying this forever. Why don’t you just get one every other year, or even three, and ease up on the throttle a bit?”

The look on their faces is the same as if they’d been shot out of a cannon.

“Well then, eat Ramen for the rest of your life…”.
Yeah. People find creative ways to make poor, entirely unnecessary choices. I don't think Tim Cook even hints at "you must get this new one". Obviously, he'll sell it as great (and I think most iPhone releases have been), and there is the somewhat dubious iPhone Upgrade Program. Like, if your friends want the newest stuff each year, maybe they should just get that. Might be a better overall deal.

(The best deal is to not buy things you don't really need.)
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PB PM
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2021-12-22, 11:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Enjoy carrying around ten pounds of $5k gear for situations when a high-end smartphone would have been enough, I guess?
In nature only the strong survive. Good enough is always in the eye of the beholder after all. $5k, that’s some cheap gear. Mid-range cameras alone are $4-6k now.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-22, 11:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Yeah. People find creative ways to make poor, entirely unnecessary choices. I don't think Tim Cook even hints at "you must get this new one". Obviously, he'll sell it as great (and I think most iPhone releases have been), and there is the somewhat dubious iPhone Upgrade Program. Like, if your friends want the newest stuff each year, maybe they should just get that. Might be a better overall deal.

(The best deal is to not buy things you don't really need.)
Yeah. Unfortunately, nobody seems to do that though. Certainly nobody I know. My mom gets a box from Amazon pretty much every single day.

And my sister and her family, and everyone else I know, are all the same way as well. Everyone. They always make fun of me and my minimalist, frugal "everything I need, nothing I don't" lifestyle. Maybe one day they'll understand it ain't about "stuff"; you ain't taking it with you, after all. And when you have so much/too much, as they all do, you don't even fully enjoy/use it fully in the here and now. They have no idea what they have, after a certain point...they can't possibly use/wear all they've accumulated. And none of them get rid of anything to make room for new stuff, either. That would be unthinkable! So their houses all tend to look like 10 pounds of shit crammed into a 5-pound bag.

"Guys...come on. Really? How can there truly be no place for me to set a drink down?!"

Oh well...that's a whole other thread/discussion someday.

I just can't wait to get a new iPhone soon. Talking about how noticeable things are after just 2-3 years, I can't imagine how a six-year/generation leap (A9 -> A15, 16GB -> 64GB, new battery, nicer camera, etc.) is going to feel.

It'll likely change how I use my phone in some real, day-to-day ways (exploring/using more apps...word games, trivia, etc.) and not having to be so choosey about what I snap/film (and not in such a hurry to offload to my roomier MacBook ASAP). I think I'm looking more forward to the storage increase as much as anything. 16GB in 2021 ain't a lot, and that's with me deleting all the Apple apps I never use (Stocks, etc.) and I only have four third-party ones (myAT&T, Ring, Scrabble and YouTube).

Absolutely pathetic.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-12-22 at 11:59.
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Mac+
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2021-12-23, 18:35

My history with the iPhone is - 3G - - 4S - - 6Plus - - X - - - -

The X has lasted me well, although the battery is understandably running down quickly now. I pretty much live by my iPhone, but I think I’ll opt for an SE if it is released next year.

My challenge is to see how I can go with an iPad Pro as my main computer, so the iPhone can afford to be smaller and not a high end model.

For what it’s worth, I created a poster of iPhone models for my nephew last Christmas as he was obsessed with iPhone history.

Here it is - in compressed format - thanks to Ken.

If you’d like the original poster (A1 size) send me a private message.

All I want is a simple life
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-23, 18:46

Ah, that's cool! I love stuff like this. I've done a similar thing with iPods, the iMac, OS X, etc. Not for anyone else, necessarily...just because I'm a bit of a dork.

I love to make lists, timelines, and things like this to see the "big picture" at a glance, etc., so I'll always look at/enjoy stuff like this! Good work.

Amazing that it's now been 14+ years, huh?

My personal iPhone history (yes, I keep this and my Mac history in Notes).
Original iPhone: 07/2007 - 09/2010
iPhone 4: 09/2010 - 10/2012
iPhone 5: 10/2012 - 11/2015
iPhone 5c: 11/2015 - 04/2016 (banana yellow temp loaner/stop-gap)
iPhone SE: 04/2016 - Present
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Mac+
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2021-12-23, 19:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Ah, that's cool! I love stuff like this. I've done a similar thing with iPods, the iMac, OS X, etc. Not for anyone else, necessarily...just because I'm a bit of a dork.

I love to make lists, timelines, and things like this to see the "big picture" at a glance, etc., so I'll always look at/enjoy stuff like this! Good work.
Thanks Paul!

I’m the same… list-maker! Notes is one of my most used apps on the iPhone! ❤️

I always want the overview too. At work I can geek out because I’m mapping customer journeys and creating Experience Maps to gain that holistic perspective to make informed decisions.

At home, I have an Apple history poster which is really comprehensive and well compiled. It’s not available these days, but it looks like this.


All I want is a simple life
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-23, 19:38

I would absolutely die if I had something like that on my wall. I'd never need TV.

I love timelines, graphs, infographics, etc. Anything like that will hold my attention for a really long time.

Off-topic (click to toggle):
Way back in the mid-90's I worked at a small county newspaper in Northern Virginia. I was on the advertising art staff, doing layouts in QuarkXPress (and teaching the others there how to use it because they were coming off some weirdo, proprietary ad-creation software that everyone hated). But I also knew Photoshop and Illustrator and, over time, finagled/talked my way over to the editorial side of things and wound up being the "second-go-to" editorial artist as well...I'd literally, in the course of a shift, build auto dealer ads on one side of the building, then walk over and sit at Illustrator and/or Photoshop to do editorial art, infographics, charts, diagrams, cutaway drawings, etc.

An editor or reporter (news, sports, local stuff, etc.) would come to me with a napkin sketch/rough idea and a general size and say "can you make this look like something by 4pm-ish?" (and it would be about 3:25 ). I drew building floorpans, flags, a basketball court, the inside of an air filter, little icons for the various columnists, how storm clouds formed, I-95 traffic patterns, timelines, icons/symbols, cutaways/technical illustrations, etc.

I was in heaven/my element at those times, and always came through. You learn all the shortcuts/workarounds/streamlining when there's a daily deadline to press! I learned so much about Adobe Illustrator in those 12-16 months...total trial by fire. If I didn't know it, I'd make it up/figure out a way. I loved that period/job.
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Mac+
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2021-12-24, 01:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
I would absolutely die if I had something like that on my wall. I'd never need TV.

I love timelines, graphs, infographics, etc. Anything like that will hold my attention for a really long time.

Off-topic (click to toggle):

I was in heaven/my element at those times, and always came through. You learn all the shortcuts/workarounds/streamlining when there's a daily deadline to press! I learned so much about Adobe Illustrator in those 12-16 months...total trial by fire. If I didn't know it, I'd make it up/figure out a way. I loved that period/job.
I love that reflection about being in your element at work. I’ve been striving for that recently. I realised I derive more sense of satisfaction and self-worth when I’m doing the work as opposed to directing it. Thankfully, with maturity, I can steer my career and create opportunities better for myself these days. It’s very gratifying to be able to do work that is invigorating and you find appeals to your values.

On a different note, in relation to keeping track of Apple products, we may have discussed this before Paul, but I always load up MacTracker on every machine I have. I love this utility app.

In a similar sense to our discussion about iOS as a label sticking out as the odd one out these days (I wish it were named iPhone OS) I wish MacTracker was renamed AppleTracker or something more encompassing than the Mac.

All I want is a simple life
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
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2021-12-24, 03:45

MacTracker is one of only four third-party apps I have on my Mac. I don’t think a week goes by that I don’t launch it at least once to check a spec, confirm a release (or discontinue) date, settle a nerd bet, etc.

Once I have a new iPhone and storage is no longer a concern, I’ll have it back on my phone as well. I love it. It’s like catnip to this trivia/list fiend. Sometimes I’ll just launch it and pick a category to go through all the products listed.

I love that it’s usually updated within a week or so - certainly within a month - of new products being introduced. An invaluable research/information tool! I’ve launched it eleventy-teen gazillion times over the years.
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chucker
 
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2021-12-24, 04:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
MacTracker is one of only four third-party apps I have on my Mac. I don’t think a week goes by that I don’t launch it at least once to check a spec, confirm a release (or discontinue) date, settle a nerd bet, etc.
By which you mean: click on a Mac's image to play its startup sound.
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PB PM
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2021-12-24, 08:57

That’s about what Mac tracker is good for. Good refresher on what specific specs an old machine you had would have shipped with stock though.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-24, 09:44

I just had a goofy thought, kinda bridging the current SE and a possible full-face one down the road (especially if it didn't happen until 2024, two-plus years from now).

Hear me out (and then ridicule the notion)...

Would Apple go through the design/manufacturing hassle, as they've done with various iPhones over the years (see next paragraph), to do a small cosmetic redesign/refresh on the upcoming 2022 SE? It would still be a 4.7" model with the home button and all, but doing away with the rounded sides of the iPhone 8 body and adopting the squared-off banding of the iPhone 12/13 (or iPhone 4/5, if you wanna get technical/pedantic about it).

There is precedent for one-off/one-generation-only iPhone models over the years: the original 2007 only stuck around a year and the ice cream-colored 5c was a one-and-done thing. I know the 6/6s/7/8 basically shared the same design over four years, but I don't know enough about the X/Xs and the 11. If the 11 was a bit different than the X and Xs before it, and we know the 12 changed to the squared edges, that would make the iPhone 11 a one-off/one-generation design. So they have done it before, at least two times (and possibly a third). And I just remembered the Xr model (my Mom has that). Isn't that different from the X/Xs a bit? If so, it only stuck around one year. Or was it different in naming only?

That slight change in style/appearance, plus the addition of the A15 and 5G, both strongly rumored/expected (Apple has indeed, twice before, put the current flagship processor into a new SE model...the original in 2016 and the current model in 2020), would make an interesting, new design...that size has never been inside a 4/5/12/13 chassis design before. If they did so, it would probably mean they intend to keep it around for two full years and not go to another redesign until 2024. And that's fine. But it refreshes the SE, after two years, in a subtle way that, taken with those other two things - latest processor and cellular radio - really might appeal to those who can't bring themselves to shell out flagship prices ($699) for a phone.

Also, that flat, squared-off edge could allow for slightly roomier inside and maybe even a big larger battery? Isn't drastic, but they'd be able to use all that internal space more efficiently without the rounded, curved edges, right? Stuff could go right up to the edges. If you took that top and bottom curve area, multiplied by the distance around the phone itself, that has to add up to a bit of space?

Or does it make more sense to just stick with the iPhone 8 body style for another 1-2 years, until a true, proper third-generation SE comes out? Probably so, but there's just enough "well they've kinda created a 'quickie' model before...".

As someone who owned an iPhone 4 and 5 - and the current first-generation SE, based on the iPhone 5s - I love that squared-off, banded edge vs. the rolled, round edge of the iPhone 6/7/8/X/11. It seems more secure in the hand, that flat edge. Any time I've picked up/used a case-less 6/7/8/X/11 variant, it practically wants to jump out of my hand...those round edges want to slide against my palm and not stay put as easily as the 4/5/12/13 styles.

Thoughts?

Just to be clear, and for the record: I really don't think it would happen, but, if it did, it would be a nice little surprise, and bring the SE body, even without the full-face look, in line with the 12/13 flagships and their edge treatment/design. In my gut, I just don't see Apple putting that sort of short-term effort/payoff into their $399 "budget" model, but as I was using my SE this morning I thought "we've never seen this design - a home button iPhone - with a display larger than 4".

It would be just like the current SE, but just an updated edge.

A complete waste of money, time and resources, right?

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-12-24 at 10:11.
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chucker
 
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2021-12-24, 14:13

The 11 was the successor to the XR. Those share a design.

The X, XS and 11 Pro shared the other design.

The 12/12 Pro then unified those.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-12-24, 15:23

Ah. Those models just all kinda ran together for me and I wasn't real up one their designs, year to year.

I know my idea above won't happen, but it's cool to think about on Christmas Eve.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2021-12-24 at 17:34.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
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2022-01-06, 18:29

And the latest...

2022 iPhone SE Will Have 5G But No Design Changes, Major Update Coming in 2024

Quote:
The upcoming 2022 iPhone SE will gain 5G technology and an updated A-series chip, but it will not feature major design changes, leaker Dylandkt said today, echoing many of the previous ‌iPhone SE‌ rumors we've heard.
About what everyone has been saying. Fine with me.

Quote:
According to Dylandkt, Apple is developing an ‌iPhone SE‌ that's "similar to the XR/11" but with a "slightly smaller screen size." This device is expected to be released in 2024.
I'll definitely get the 2022 model, and then replace it in 2024-2025 with the true, full-face redesign.

I'll wind up owning all models/designs of the SE.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2022-02-05, 10:24

It sounds like this thing, along with a new iPad Air, is coming March 8.

Yay!

Also from MacRumors, an overview over what to expect from the new model next month.

My favorite part (and a surprise, taking into account both Apple and how everything else in the world seems to be going, pricing-wise):

Quote:
The 2022 ‌iPhone SE‌ is expected to be priced starting at $399, which is the same asking price as the current 2020 model.
That would be wonderful. That's the price I've assumed/planned on/hoped for all along. Totally fair, completely reasonable. And keeps it $300 away from the lowest-priced flagship model (iPhone 13 mini) so there's plenty of gap/separation. No "well, for just $150 more I could get..." dilemmas. Nobody cares/squawks that a $399 SE has only one camera lens, etc. People aren't looking to this model for the "cutting edge" and high-end features, so Apple should continue pricing it as such. I can swing $399 for what will wind up being a 2-3 year purchase.




PS - Perhaps Applenova can branch off into a separate side forum where it's just me talking about the iPhone SE and Boba Fett/The Mandalorian 27 hours a day? Because that's about what it seems like the joint has become.
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chucker
 
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2022-02-05, 11:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
And keeps it $300 away from the lowest-priced flagship model (iPhone 13 mini) so there's plenty of gap/separation. No "well, for just $150 more I could get..." dilemmas.
For just $100 more, you could get an iPhone 11, and for $200 more, the 12 mini!

*runs away*
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2022-02-05, 12:37

That's true. And a great option for many, no doubt. My friend and her partner got the iPhone 11 Pro a year ago for a really good price (Best Buy, I believe).

But for me, and how I buy an iPhone (once every 3-6 years, apparently ) I, personally, would never buy a 1-2 generation old model. I know that sounds so silly, seeing as how I'm using a six-generation old A9 in this original SE. But, when I buy, I do buy whatever the current generation is (original 2007, iPhone 4, iPhone 5, original SE), because I know it's gonna need those "legs" with me.

In a nutshell, I'd much rather have the current processor in an affordable SE vs. a 1-2 generation old flagship/"Cadillac" model for $100-200 more. I'm buying on performance/price...the best for the least.

I would never spend $100-200 more for a 1-2 year old model, but that's just me. YMMV.

And, being completely honest, all I've ever known is the home button iPhone. I'm used to it. I know, at some point, the SE line will transition to the other style, and I'll make the jump then. But I like the SE/home button design, at least for another 2-3 years.
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2022-02-05, 12:50

Y'all please let Paul alone.

It's not nice to tease people with tiny hands.

...
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2022-02-05, 14:09

You're a punk.

And it's more like tiny wallet.

At this point, $400 is about all I can justify for a phone (especially if I'll get a solid three years out of it, which I can do standing on my head at this point). I'm thankful the SE line exists, and gets updates every couple of years or so.




PS - If folks here want to chip in and make up the extra $300, sure...I'll be happy to get a 13 mini.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2022-02-05 at 14:21.
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