[nikstar101]

After Apple bluntly updated iTunes to block Palm syncing there Pre, Palm have now updated their webOS to re-enable the syncing. It looks like we will be in for a cat and mouse update here between Apple and Palm.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...tunes-sync.ars

To be honest i am glad of this. Like i said in the last thread i think Apple needs to open iTunes up a bit and allow some sort of syncing system for non-Apple devices. Whether it does this but having a generic sync system that it allows other hardware manufactures to use or has a plug-in system for iTunes i don't really mind.

Yes you can have other programmes that do this for you, but now that were are supposed to be part of this digital hub it seems strange to have many different programmes to carry out one function.

Just for the record i am an iPhone user and i don't really even like the Pre.

Old thread:
http://forums.applenova.com/showthread.php?t=32705

[alcimedes]

Apple is retarded not to let Palm sync with their product.

They're going to figure out a way anyway, if they're using iTunes you're still getting potential music sales etc. through it, so who cares.

Plus, if you wanted to be smart about it, you'd have iTunes gather "generic" statistics of PalmPre users. They'd have the ability to get some first hand market research about one of their competitor's products and how it's used, for nothing.

I don't really see how it harms Apple, I can see ways it could be beneficial, and they're just acting like dick bags with these stupid blocks.

[Enki]

It's called licensing. If Palm licensed the privilege Apple might act differently. But without a license Palm is explicitly using and advertising iTunes integration as part of their product. That is some awfully thin legal ice, and fairly non-ethical in my view.

Businesses have a duty to play by the rules in a way customers are not obliged to. Palm is freeloading on his one and outing it in their own documentation and ads. Thye should just man-up and publicly engage Apple on licensing the iTunes interface. Then they would be sitting in a good ethical and business place. And if Apple says no, then Apple is on the spot publicly. But right now Apple has the high moral ground and I'm sure will use it to push another iTunes update in the near future.

[RowdyScot]

It isn't just licensing. Apple wants total control over the experience. They can't guarantee the same quality on a hacked device. While in most cases of hacking, such as a Hackintosh, it's pretty well understood that things might not always work right. Palm is stating this works without letting its users know it is hacked, therefore any bad user experience reflects on Apple in the minds of the consumer, and not necessarily on Palm. Licensing is the other big part of it, however, since Palm could have requested to license it.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by RowdyScot It isn't just licensing. Apple wants total control over the experience. They can't guarantee the same quality on a hacked device. While in most cases of hacking, such as a Hackintosh, it's pretty well understood that things might not always work right. Palm is stating this works without letting its users know it is hacked, therefore any bad user experience reflects on Apple in the minds of the consumer, and not necessarily on Palm. Licensing is the other big part of it, however, since Palm could have requested to license it.

This is a good point I didn't really think about. One note though, I do not believe Apple has any license agreement for iTunes anymore. They did in the past, but now I'm pretty sure that is gone.

Other vendors can have their own sync tool that reads the iTunes library XML file and then easily sync the music that way for free though, Palm is just being lazy.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Justin This is a good point I didn't really think about. One note though, I do not believe Apple has any license agreement for iTunes anymore. They did in the past, but now I'm pretty sure that is gone.

iTunes SLA

iTunes Store T&C

[Bryson]

Apparently, the Pre now identifies itself with Apple's vendor ID code over USB, in direct contravention of the USB Implementors Forum rules:

Unauthorized use of assigned or unassigned USB Vendor ID Numbers and associated Product ID Numbers are strictly prohibited.

..and have then complained to the USBIF that Apple are "misusing" the Vendor ID.

Brass balls, I'll give them that.

[Franz Josef]

it just looks desperate. I suspect Palm will soon be history

[Miko]

Yup here we go again.

Wether iTunes is open or not isn't the problem, it's the fact that Palm has altered the USB Device/Vendor ID which all devices use and should remain in tack(Palm, Pre = Palm, Pre not Palm, iPod) as Bryson has pointed out. That is like putting a different VIN number on a car, um not cool.

Why does it seem to be so hard to understand this?

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Miko Yup here we go again. Wether iTunes is open or not isn't the problem, it's the fact that Palm has altered the USB Device/Vendor ID which all devices should appear in tack(Palm, Pre = Palm, Pre not Palm, iPod) as Bryson has pointed out. That is like putting a different VIN number on a car, um not cool. Why does it seem to be so hard to understand this?

Because Palm can't write their own program to access ITMS stuff if their own lives depended on it.

[alcimedes]

Hey, I'm not saying that what Palm is doing is right, just saying that Apple working to break it is stupid.

There's stupidity to go around in this scenario.

Palm should license it. Apple should work with them to do so.

Apple constantly updating iTunes in order to break the Pre syncing with iTunes is retarded.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Bryson Apparently, the Pre now identifies itself with Apple's vendor ID code over USB, in direct contravention of the USB Implementors Forum rules: ..and have then complained to the USBIF that Apple are "misusing" the Vendor ID. Brass balls, I'll give them that.

Wow, that's just...dumb.

While I agree that it would be nice if iTunes was more open, Palm hacking together their own little work-around isn't the way it should be opened. Palm should write their own tiny little syncing app, like everyone else.

The fact that they're being so childish about it actually makes me like them less.

[nikstar101]

I think it is Apple that is being childish. I mean releasing an update that solely breaks Palms syncing...... I mean thats all a bit silly.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by nikstar101 I think it is Apple that is being childish. I mean releasing an update that solely breaks Palms syncing...... I mean thats all a bit silly.

Perhaps, but it's...y'know...their software. Not Palm's.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by nikstar101 I think it is Apple that is being childish. I mean releasing an update that solely breaks Palms syncing...... I mean thats all a bit silly.

Well to be fair, it closed a hole where any device (against USB licensing guidelines) reporting itself as an iPod, where the manufacturer was *not* Apple, was accepted as an iPod. That's kind of a bug... there's no such thing as an iPod not made by Apple. So they closed the loophole (which IMO should never have been there in the first place.)

What's funny (and requiring balls of titanium) is that now the Pre reports itself *as an Apple iPod*, and this is *absolutely* against USB licensing terms. Palm could be penalized by the USB Consortium, or even have their license ganked over something like this... but to make those balls necessarily made of *tempered* titanium... they are now turning around and filing a formal complaint with the same standards body whose terms they have just pissed on, to complain about Apple *using the licensing terms correctly*.

Yeah, this is gonna be fun.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by chucker iTunes SLA iTunes Store T&C

What I meant was I remember reading somewhere that Apple no longer licenses iTunes to work with 3rd party products...obviously it has a terms of use. I just mean there is no way for Palm to pay X amount of dollars and officially sync the Pre to iTunes.

[alcimedes]

Are you sure that's correct? The Amazon MP3 store works flawlessly with iTunes via their own download software.

I was really impressed with it actually.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Well to be fair, it closed a hole where any device (against USB licensing guidelines) reporting itself as an iPod, where the manufacturer was *not* Apple, was accepted as an iPod. That's kind of a bug... there's no such thing as an iPod not made by Apple. So they closed the loophole (which IMO should never have been there in the first place.) What's funny (and requiring balls of titanium) is that now the Pre reports itself *as an Apple iPod*, and this is *absolutely* against USB licensing terms. Palm could be penalized by the USB Consortium, or even have their license ganked over something like this... but to make those balls necessarily made of *tempered* titanium... they are now turning around and filing a formal complaint with the same standards body whose terms they have just pissed on, to complain about Apple *using the licensing terms correctly*. Yeah, this is gonna be fun.

And yet, all the Engadget commenters think Apple are, quote, "Nazis."

EDIT: Yeah, AmazonMP3 works with iTunes. Or at least, when I download a song through the downloader it automagically ends up in iTunes. I don't know if that requires some special license or what.

I think Delicious Library works with iTunes, too. If I get something from iTunes, it shows up in DL by itself, I think.

So clearly, there's still ways to access the song library. Palm could have easily made a little syncing app themselves, just like every other company does, but instead they decided to make it look like Apple was somehow endorsing the Pre.

[Banana]

I know nothing about the USB consortium but thought of a possibility- could that be part of Palm's bravado and confidence that consortium already is jealous of Apple and wouldn't mind pegging Apple down one or two even in face of violating themselves?

Could that be Palm's ace in the sleeve?

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman And yet, all the Engadget commenters think Apple are, quote, "Nazis."

What they don't get and many who use the argument, " It just means Apple is losing revenue from Pre users" is that Apple doesn't block the competition from accessing the users ITMS library. RIM has Blackberry MediaSync which accesses the folder and puts your DRM less ITMS music onto your Blackberry. All Apple is doing is blocking the Pre and non-Apple devices from directly syncing with the iTunes program. The only way Palm could have argued anti-trust with the Feds would be if Apple still sold DRM songs which only worked on iPod's/iPhone's. But, Apple has gotten rid of that situation by removing the DRM.

[Frank777]

While I'm sure that Rubenstein has a sync app being built as we speak, I think Palm needs to use this case to sponsor a competitor to iTunes.

It is silly for the Mac market (forget the whole PC market for now) to depend on a monopoly database app hardwired to single Music store in this day and age.

Songbird was touted as a competitor to iTunes, but it's ugly and definitely not Cocoa.
I believe it allows multiple stores to compete, which is the future.

Given that movie downloads are here now and eBooks are the next wave, it is silly to restrict ourselves to one store.
I understand that you can use multiple stores now and add the files manually to iTunes.
But that still gives Apple's Store a leg up on anybody else.

Google was said to be developing an app, but it never materialized.

Is anybody working on a promising competitor to iTunes?

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Frank777 While I'm sure that Rubenstein has a sync app being built as we speak, I think Palm needs to use this case to sponsor a competitor to iTunes.

On the Pre, you can download songs wirelessly from AmazonMP3. It's not a jukebox app, but does it matter?

There's non-hacky ways to do everything Palm wants to do with iTunes. It just won't look like Apple supports the Pre.

[kieran]

I think Palm just needs to back off and stop doing this.

This latest step is clearly against all the agreed upon USB licenses and just did whatever the hell they wanted, and then went and tattled on Apple.

It's just stupid. There are ways for Palm to sync with iTunes without relegating themselves to using stupid hacks.

[Robo]

Exactly. All they have to do is make their own little syncing ditty and they'd be fine.

I think all the people freaking out at Apple don't really understand the issue. iTunes probably isn't as locked down as they think - the songs are DRM-free, after all. BlackBerry's syncing software is a good example that's, y'know, legal. Apple isn't going to shut that down, so all the haters at BGR can stop whining.

[Swox]

I personally think Apple should be able to do whatever they want with iTunes. It's really just there as an interface for their hardware, and what Palm are doing is unforgivably trite, IMO, given what people have said about the XML thingy.

I'm curious about why Palm are doing this at all. Is it just to get free publicity for their product? Are they trying to set themselves up as some sort of David v. Goliath or something? Is there a plan at all here, or are they just foolish?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Justin What I meant was I remember reading somewhere that Apple no longer licenses iTunes to work with 3rd party products.

Oh, sorry. My mistake.

I just mean there is no way for Palm to pay X amount of dollars and officially sync the Pre to iTunes.

There are various iTunes SDKs you can license (such as for visualizer plug-ins), but I am unsure if there's currently one for third-party portable players. Having said that, there's no indication Palm even tried to ask…

Originally Posted by Frank777 Songbird was touted as a competitor to iTunes, but it's ugly and definitely not Cocoa. I believe it allows multiple stores to compete, which is the future.

Don't be so sure. Windows Media Player allowed you to choose between stores years ago, and Microsoft made a huge deal out of how it gives the customers "more choices". True, but here's the most likely choice customers will make when faced with that situation: none. They'll just walk away with their money.

E.g., how many people choose their search engine? They use what the browser comes bundled with or what the friendly neighbor or nephew has set up for them.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by Swox I personally think Apple should be able to do whatever they want with iTunes. It's really just there as an interface for their hardware, and what Palm are doing is unforgivably trite, IMO, given what people have said about the XML thingy. I'm curious about why Palm are doing this at all. Is it just to get free publicity for their product? Are they trying to set themselves up as some sort of David v. Goliath or something? Is there a plan at all here, or are they just foolish?

Agreed. You can't ride off the coat tails of others without paying the piper. It's taken Apple years and millions of development money to build the iTunes store to the point of where it is today. You either license and pay up or don't bother to play.

As far as Palm's motives, it may be trying to be a David-like or the maverick who doesn't play by the rules. But honestly, they end up looking like a third rate company. It also makes potential buyers of the Pre question whether or not it'll work with iTunes in the future. They may just decide, I don't need the hassle and skip it altogether.

[julesstoop]

I lost my interest in Palm quite a while ago, so I really shouldn't be posting in this thread. Sorry..

[Partial]

Originally Posted by Roboman Wow, that's just...dumb. While I agree that it would be nice if iTunes was more open, Palm hacking together their own little work-around isn't the way it should be opened. Palm should write their own tiny little syncing app, like everyone else. The fact that they're being so childish about it actually makes me like them less.

Childish? Apple broke it deliberately. That's childish. Palm has to provide the promised functionality for their users. I don't see a problem with them doing it personally.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Partial Palm has to provide the promised functionality for their users. I don't see a problem with them doing it personally.

Palm shouldn't have "promised" a feature that depends on an external party's closed platform with which Palm has no formal agreement to support said feature. That's just stupid on the part of Palm.