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Who says "Qantas Never Crashed"?
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Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2007-01-22, 09:55

Quote:
from BBC:

Flight ban for anti-Bush T-shirt

The T-shirt featuring President Bush could offend, Qantas says
A passenger barred from a Qantas airlines flight for wearing a T-shirt depicting US President George Bush as a terrorist has threatened legal action. Allen Jasson said he was sticking up for the principle of free speech by challenging the decision by the Australian flag carrier.

Mr Jasson was stopped as he was about to board the flight from Melbourne to London last Friday. Qantas said the T-shirt had potential to offend other passengers. The T-shift features an image of President George W Bush, along with the slogan "World's Number One Terrorist".

The 55-year-old computer specialist, who lives in London, had encountered difficulties with the same T-shirt on an earlier Qantas flight in December. After clearing the international security checks at Melbourne Airport, he reportedly approached the gate manager to congratulate him on the company's new-found open-mindedness.

At that point, Mr Jasson was ordered to remove the T-shirt after being told it was a security threat and an item which might cause offence to other passengers. He was offered the chance to board the flight wearing different clothing, but refused. "I am not prepared to go without the t-shirt. I might forfeit the fare, but I have made up my mind that I would rather stand up for the principle of free speech," he told Australian media.

And here I thought the Australians still had that spirit of freedom and independence so many Americans seem to take for granted now. I guess it's all part of the image, but underneath you guys have to put up with the same BS-logic we do. Sad....

...into the light of a dark black night.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-22, 10:09

FWIW, it's not exactly a first time. I'm told there has been instances of airlines refusing services to people wearing politically upsetting attires, even long before 9-11 and not just US airlines.
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PKIDelirium
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2007-01-22, 12:03

Oh geez, not again...
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chucker
 
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2007-01-22, 12:20

I'm inclined to say three letters that could get me banned.

In any case, I feel Jasson is trying too hard to be a hero here. No, I don't agree with the absurd and extreme agenda of the US, but is it appropriate and worth protecting that you can call a person (no matter their political status or lack thereof) "World's Number One Terrorist"? It's highly offensive, and it's also a fairly stupid statement.
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PKIDelirium
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2007-01-22, 12:30

It's called Free Speech.
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intlplby
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
 
2007-01-22, 12:30

'stupid' because it's accurate and the man unfortunately happens to be the leader of the US?

yeah, it's called iiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrooooooonnnnyyyyyyyyy.....
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chucker
 
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2007-01-22, 12:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
It's called Free Speech.
And free speech, in your view, protects libel/slander/defamation? The purpose of free speech is to allow people to express revolutionary political thoughts that may conflict starkly with the government's view. There's nothing smart, revolutionary, or politically thoughtful about "World's Number One Terrorist"; it's an opinion, and one so widespread that it doesn't have much meaning.
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PKIDelirium
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Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2007-01-22, 12:37

It ain't libel/slander/defamation when it's the truth, which in this case unfortunately is.
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julesstoop
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
 
2007-01-22, 12:39

Still I wouldn't consider this t-shirt particularly offensive. It is just a slightly simplistic opinion.
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chucker
 
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2007-01-22, 12:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
It ain't libel/slander/defamation when it's the truth, which in this case unfortunately is.
Your personal opinion of a man is "the truth"? I don't think highly of the man, but there's no need to resort to such low levels.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2007-01-22, 12:51

Quote:
The 55-year-old computer specialist, who lives in London, had encountered difficulties with the same T-shirt on an earlier Qantas flight in December. After clearing the international security checks at Melbourne Airport, he reportedly approached the gate manager to congratulate him on the company's new-found open-mindedness.


OK. He knowns the damn thing caused a ruckus before, yet wears it. When they overlook it he goes over to 'congratulate' the gate manager? Whatever. More like that annoying Stewart kid on MadTV with his "Look what I can do!"

Two words: Drama Queen.

So it goes.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
 
2007-01-22, 12:56

Agreed. It's a stupid rule, but he obviously wanted them to do what they did. They would have been better off telling him to stop being an ass and sit down before he embarrassed himself further.
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murbot
Hoonigan
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
 
2007-01-22, 12:56

He's an asshole, and I'm glad they kicked his drama queen ass to the curb. I say use the airfare money for pizza and beers to all the staff who had to deal with him that day.

If only he'd channel that energy to something worthwhile, like getting that vasectomy double checked.
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Sauvblanc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Mel-Bun!
 
2007-01-22, 13:31

Flight from Melbourne to Heathrow: ~ $2000 Aus. That's a damn lot of beer and 'za.

More if he was flying business class...
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bassplayinMacFiend
Banging the Bottom End
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2007-01-22, 13:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
FWIW, it's not exactly a first time. I'm told there has been instances of airlines refusing services to people wearing politically upsetting attires, even long before 9-11 and not just US airlines.
Kind of a reverse oddity. In my state, a pro boomerang thrower was arrested because she made a stink about not being allowed to take her boomerangs on the plane with her. Now I know a boomerang is officially classed as a weapon, but do you really think this poses a serious threat on a plane?

Bottom of this article.
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2007-01-22, 14:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot View Post
He's an asshole, and I'm glad they kicked his drama queen ass to the curb. I say use the airfare money for pizza and beers to all the staff who had to deal with him that day.

If only he'd channel that energy to something worthwhile, like getting that vasectomy double checked.
Beer often is the very source of free speech. You end up saying things you otherwise wouldn't.

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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-22, 14:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend View Post
Kind of a reverse oddity. In my state, a pro boomerang thrower was arrested because she made a stink about not being allowed to take her boomerangs on the plane with her. Now I know a boomerang is officially classed as a weapon, but do you really think this poses a serious threat on a plane?

Bottom of this article.
Yeah. I can totally see her slicing 100s of heads off clean with her boomerang, even in such cramped spaces.
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2007-01-22, 14:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Yeah. I can totally see her slicing 100s of heads off clean with her boomerang, even in such cramped spaces.
Maybe it's something about treating people equally. If she's allowed, so am I. And that guy with the "I luv' Osama" t-shirt.

She could just have put it in her checked in luggage. F***! I know a Danish military officer who checked in an AK-47 w/o any special permits. Thing is; you can't wield it when it's in down in the cargo hold.

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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-22, 15:27

Yes, I can understand the equal treatment, and my response was pretty flippant. However, I have known airlines to provide some kind of provisions for special luggage (e.g. someone is afraid to lose a very valuable article but cannot carry it on for whatever reason; in which stewardess will take it and put it in locker near the boarding door). But then again, that sort of provision isn't really a privilege granted to every passenger, let alone their right to have.
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Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2007-01-22, 16:39

Our Constitution, via the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments to the US Constitution), specifically guarantees Americans 'freedom of speech':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment

Quote:
Text of the First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Freedom of speech is certainly a highly treasured right. Its most widespread and crucial manifestation, freedom of the press, is certainly of *extreme* importance in a democracy. Without freedom of the press, I don't see how a democracy can continue to exist in a viable, functioning form down through the turmoils and ravages of time and history.

I do wonder how many 'other' countries have freedom of speech and freedom of the press *explicitly* spelled out as rights under law? Perhaps some of our members from other countries can address my question.

Also, if these two rights 'are' specifically guaranteed by law in your country, *when* (what year) did these guarantees go into effect?

I did a quick check into 'bills of rights' and was *enormously* interested to find that what is listed as the first bill of rights is from ancient Persia (today's Iran).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights

Quote:
Cyrus Cylinder Allowing freedom of religion and abolishment of slavery (559-530BC.;Persian Empire/Iran)
Magna Carta (1215; England)
Bill of Rights 1689 (England) and Claim of Right (Scotland)
Preamble to the United States Declaration of Independence (July 1776)
United States Bill of Rights to the United States Constitution (Completed in 1789, ratified in 1791)
Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (1789; France)
Declaration of Women's Suffrage Rights (United States, 1876) [citation needed]
Basic rights and liberties in Finland (1919)
Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)
Fundamental rights and duties of citizens in People's Republic of China (1949)
European Convention on Human Rights (1950)
Fundamental Rights of Indian citizens (1950)
Canadian Bill of Rights (1960)
Virginia Bill of Rights (June 1962)
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (1982)
New Zealand Bill of Rights Act (1990)
Hong Kong Bills of Rights Ordinance (1991)
Human Rights Act 1998 (United Kingdom)
Constitution of South Africa Chapter 2: Bill of Rights (1996)
Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (2006.5)
Quote:
The 2003 Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech of Shirin Ebadi also referred to the Cyrus Cylinder:

“I am an Iranian. A descendant of Cyrus the Great. The very emperor who proclaimed at the pinnacle of power 2500 years ago that he would not reign over the people if they did not wish it. And [he] promised not to force any person to change his religion and faith, and guaranteed freedom for all. The Charter of Cyrus the great is one of the most important documents that should be studied in the history of human rights.”
I think it would be really nice if Ahmadinejad would brush up on his 'ancient Persian history' textbooks - 559-530BC - and check out a few of the rights his Iranian people had a few millennia back.

Also highly ironic, in that he calls us the great satan and condemns us to death and destruction because we don't...oops! - share his religion and religious beliefs.

Perhaps we should start wearing "Cyrus the Great" t-shirts, with a copy of the text of the Cyrus Cylinder 'freedom of religion' statement on the back.

The Aussie guy with the t-shirt needs to get a life and spend his time and energies on more worthwhile ways to improve the human condition. Either that, or get himself a Cyrus the Great t-shirt.

Last edited by Windswept : 2007-01-22 at 16:54.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-22, 16:47

I need to remind that while we have guaranteed freedom of speech to say whatever we want to say about our government, this is not strictly true when we're talking about employers, private organizations/business and the likes.

Heck, look at AN's very own posting guidelines!

If I'm reading this correctly, this is a case between a private airline and a scumbag. Therefore, airline can refuse service. If it was the airport (which is usually a municipal entity and therefore subject to such scrutiny), the story would definitely be different.
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Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2007-01-22, 17:03

For my part: here's what I think:

1) He probably is an asshole... which is also completely irrelevant.

2) His shirt will offend people... definitely irrelevant.

3) Since WHEN is the rule for being able to board an airliner that you have to not offend people?! What a crock of shit guys, come on!

How many times have you sat on a plane next some loud-mouthed or drunken asshole who insulted attendants or other passengers? How many times have you sat next to some redneck running his mouth and swearing half the flight while grandma sits next to him? How many different ways do we routinely see people who offend and annoy the shit out of every other person within eyesight or earshot? ALL THE TIME.

That his T-shirt offends anyone is totally irrelevant. The only way it would be relevant is if his clothes were see-through or something, which then is the equivalent of not wearing clothes, which of course is a decency thing and a rule. But common. It's not like his shirt says "Someone should kill George Bush". It's a political shirt, period.

This is nothing but spinelessness on the part of the airline. And if it were 8 years ago and it said "Clinton is a terrorist", and they kicked him off, I'd say it's just as friggin stupid. As long as the guy's johnson isn't hanging out of his pants or his shirt doesn't visually depict some violent or lewd act, which could be argued as no different than showing a violent or lewd act on your iPod, they should've let him on.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2007-01-22, 17:06

I like 709's post above. I agree...this guy seemed to go out of his way to make it an issue, where there wasn't one.

People like that truly work my nerves. It's like they're perpetually lunging for some sort of "profiles in courage" award, and probably see themselves as "leading a great charge".

Usually they're just an enormous, flaming pain-in-the-balls in nearly all aspects of life.

I know a few of these "everything's a cause…lemme go lie down in the street and wear a ribbon!!!" types, and they honestly exhaust me to no end.



I don't know. I can see both sides of this one. Yeah, you should - within reason - be able to wear whatever you want. Then again, you're not always going to get your way (or be met with unanimous backing/support) when you put yourself out there like that. You take the defeats and bumps with the victories and triumphs.

That's how I see it, anyway.

You don't wear that type of clothing and not expect to encounter flak or grief in some way. And if you truly don't believe that - and you're that much of a raging oblivitard - then you don't need to be walking around in public anyway, IMO. Just stay home and blog or something.

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Brave Ulysses
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Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-01-22, 17:11

Ever see a sign in a restaurant/store stating "We have the right to refuse service to anyone."

They refused service. Big deal. They weren't discriminating. They simply wanted to avoid potential conflict. Seems pretty wise to me.

If this guy was simply wearing this shirt because he wanted to and put it on that day and wasn't looking to cause a problem, he would have simply accepted it, changed shirts and gone on his way.

I'm all for freedom of speech but I'm not for people abusing it so they can be jackasses.

The unfortunate thing is, by doing this, they gave him the attention he wanted.
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Mr Beardsley
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2007-01-22, 17:16

My take, he has a right to his speech, and the business has a right to refuse to do business with him. If he doesn't like it he can fly a different airline. I can't go into a McDonalds without shoes or a shirt, I might as well make a big stink about it.

"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
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rasmits
rams it
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Seattle
 
2007-01-22, 17:17

I guarantee you he wore that shirt because he was flying that day. He knew it would grab attention, especially because he said it did previously. He most certainly is an attention-whoreing asshole.

Regardless, I completely agree with Moogs...

Besides, I've worn / said my fair share of things simply to offend my superiors.

He was on an international flight, wouldn't most of the people he encouters agree with him anyway?...

You had me at asl
.......
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Barto
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2007-01-22, 17:22

Your rights stop at the cabin door. On an aircraft, it's more important to maintain order than to make your little point.

On a plane most of the people are scared and some people are shit scared. This guys T-shirt could scare people and cause a security incident - exactly the reason he wasn't allowed to fly.

I have no problem with this guy wearing his T-shirt out and about but if he wants to fly wearing a T-shirt about terrorism he needs to get a private jet.

By the way Moogs it's Qantas - no "u" - and they have crashed. Qantas haven't had a fatal jet aircraft crash.

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
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Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2007-01-22, 17:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
How many times have you sat on a plane next some loud-mouthed or drunken asshole who insulted attendants or other passengers? How many times have you sat next to some redneck running his mouth and swearing half the flight while grandma sits next to him? How many different ways do we routinely see people who offend and annoy the shit out of every other person within eyesight or earshot? ALL THE TIME.
OK. I don't get your point. It's a private airline, I've paid good money to be on that flight. The flights that I have been on, where something like you described has happened, I have pulled an attendant aside and told her I was not happy, and she addressed the individual and they either complied or she had me or that person moved.

I have never been on a flight where what you describe has occurred for an extended period of time, and was not addressed by flight staff. That is not acceptable behavior and that is not freedom of speech.

Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2007-01-22 at 17:28. Reason: can't speak english
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Windswept
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2007-01-22, 17:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barto View Post
Your rights stop at the cabin door. On an aircraft, it's more important to maintain order than to make your little point.

On a plane most of the people are scared and some people are shit scared. This guys T-shirt could scare people and cause a security incident - exactly the reason he wasn't allowed to fly.

I have no problem with this guy wearing his T-shirt out and about but if he wants to fly wearing a T-shirt about terrorism he needs to get a private jet.

By the way Moogs it's Qantas - no "u" - and they have crashed. Qantas haven't had a fatal jet aircraft crash.
All good points, Barto.
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Mac+
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Join Date: May 2004
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2007-01-22, 18:03

Nice post Barto.

This type of person craves attention - I mean seriously, why else would somebody feel the need to wear such an inflammatory slogan for all to see? He even gloated about it and chose to wear it on his return flight, knowing full well the stir he caused initially. Sure, he has the right to wear what he wants, but I also believe the airline has the right to object to his boarding the plane in that attire, based on the reasoning that it could cause other innocent passengers undue stress, or worse, potentially put them at risk. There are dress codes and common codes of behaviour at restaurants, why the big deal about this?

Moogs - re: your comments about sitting next to drunks on flights. We get what we settle for. If you're happy to put up with poor behaviour, then there's not much point in bringing it up in this context. Either talk to the person directly, or tell a steward. For the record, I'm happy to hear about drunks being refused service and even being forbidden from boarding.

mods - re: thread title. Can someone fix the spelling please? It should be QANTAS, as in Queensland and Northern Territory Air Service.

What the ... Barto's last line wasn't there when I first opened the thread.

All I want is a simple life
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