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Office 2011: It's like Office '08, but bloatier!


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Office 2011: It's like Office '08, but bloatier!
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2010-02-12, 13:52









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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2010-02-12, 13:54

Needs moar buttons.
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2010-02-12, 14:04

LOL!!

Still, Word does allow you to customize your interface six ways to Sunday.

The first few small improvements that I would hope for would be:
  • a more "nimble" Styles control palette
  • the ability to create a style for ORDERED and UNORDERED lists so that you can control the spacing above and below those lists

That LAST one is something that I would like to have in InDesign as well. Maybe it's in CS4, but in CS3 and prior you have no ability (as far as I can tell) to apply a bottom margin to a list. The only solution is to either use a hard carriage return, increase the spacing of the last bulleted item, or apply a leading margin to the paragraph following the list.



...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2010-02-12, 14:07

Gosh, as if there wasn't enough in the title bar in 08'...
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CitizenTony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dallas
 
2010-02-12, 14:12

I like the ribbon. It may not be beautiful, but it's really easy to use.
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2010-02-12, 14:18

As far as the "it's too crowded" argument goes, I suppose that I am permanently welded into the bazillion palettes mode that comes with using all the Adobe suite of products.

In a production setting all of those controls are appreciated and necessary, especially when you can tweak the interface to suit your work style.

However, I agree that for Mrs. Soccer Mom and Mr. Corporate User, it's too much.

99% of the people I know in the business world have NO FREAKING IDEA how their software works.

Give THEM the dead simple interface.
For instance, I'd celebrate if there were an easier, "intuitive" method to set tab stops, such that the average user would STOP doing the tab-tab-tab thing... as fully half my time is spent stripping out bad formatting by ignorant users.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2010-02-12, 14:18

I can see the Ribbon being useful for a stripped down consumer-oriented tool, but on a pro tool? Do the menus right, (ie, logical organization, high degree of discoverability *and* predictability, etc), and the Ribbon becomes overly redundant. They're (as usual) trying to have it all ways at once, and the result is just a mess. Not good for the consumer, not good for the pro, and a pain in the ass for everyone.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2010-02-12, 14:27

Captain Picard to the Bridge, please. We need your facepalm, stat!






If I have the misfortune to work on this (and someone hasn't shot me already), I'd probably be itching to customize it to streamline it. Just like Eclipse!
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curiousuburb
Antimatter Man
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2010-02-12, 14:29

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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2010-02-12, 14:34

What, exactly, is this "Ribbon" thing I keep hearing about. I don't use Office enough to know what looks different above from previous versions.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2010-02-12, 14:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
I can see the Ribbon being useful for a stripped down consumer-oriented tool, but on a pro tool?
I'd argue it's the other way around. For a stripped down consumer tool, the UI chrome surrounding the workspace is precious and should be used only for essential things. Pages gets it right: styles, font face, font size, B/I/U, alignment, line height and column. You know, the things you use the most when you're word processing.

The ribbon just throws everything and the kitchen sink into the same area. How the hell is a novice supposed to navigate that monstrosity?

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.
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CitizenTony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dallas
 
2010-02-12, 14:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
What, exactly, is this "Ribbon" thing I keep hearing about. I don't use Office enough to know what looks different above from previous versions.
The ribbon is the row of buttons from "home | layout | ..." down to the workspace. In Windows, they ditched (unless you force it with the alt key) the menu bar and went entirely with the ribbon.

I like it, but it's obvious that some people don't.
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2010-02-12, 14:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
I'd argue it's the other way around. For a stripped down consumer tool, the UI chrome surrounding the workspace is precious and should be used only for essential things. Pages gets it right: styles, font face, font size, B/I/U, alignment, line height and column. You know, the things you use the most when you're word processing.

The ribbon just throws everything and the kitchen sink into the same area. How the hell is a novice supposed to navigate that monstrosity?
And yet a novice will have less need for MOAR STUPH in there, so it's possible to strip it down to something that isn't a monstrosity. For a pro? No. Way. In. Hell.

Classic MS UI design: all the complexity, all the time.

And I agree re: Pages. OTOH, I'm continually asked by family members where to find things in it... they keep forgetting about the inspector.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2010-02-12, 16:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by CitizenTony View Post
I like the ribbon. It may not be beautiful, but it's really easy to use.
I like short cut keys.

Seriously, is it possible to hide that shit or will I need a bigger display to go with Office 2011?
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joveblue
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
 
2010-02-12, 16:43

As I mentioned in a Office 2007, I think the Ribbon is the best thing since sliced bread*, so I for one am excited by this. However it still looks like the bastard step-child of the Windows version. What's with the toolbar still being there?

Also, on a 13" screen, nothing pisses me off more than the stupid palette thing in Office 2008.


*Not interested in arguing about this today. Refer to previous threads
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2010-02-12, 16:45

Here's a pic of Ribbon for Word 2010 in windows.



1) Note the return of "File". Need to be "Backpedal", I think.

2) They're not same as screenshot Kickaha showed.... Going to be glamourous working on both platforms. "Yeah, click on that button." "Where?" "Um, the second button next to File" "It's not there! There's no file!"

3) I thought Microsoft did the right thing with '08 when they didn't implement ribbon because they had to keep within Mac OS X's UI. Design Style Element or whatever was a lame attempt but at least we could get with menus. Now this? What is Microsoft try to do? Outcompete GNOME and KDE for ugliness?
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joveblue
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
 
2010-02-12, 17:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
1) Note the return of "File". Need to be "Backpedal", I think.
Oh dear.
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Kraetos
Lovable Bastard
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston-ish
 
2010-02-12, 21:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
For a pro? No. Way. In. Hell.
But the most commonly used functions are going to be the most commonly used whether or not you're a pro.

If you're a pro, it really shouldn't be a problem to navigate the inspector or menu system, right? In fact, if you're really a pro, you're using keyboard shortcuts.

Duplicating the functionality of the menu bar with a ribbon doesn't really help anyone. It confuses the novice and wastes screen space for the pro. Arguably the ribbon helps the transition from novice to pro by putting everything right in front of the user's face, but I think a floating inspector window works much better, because it's more flexible.

I think the ribbon makes much more sense on Windows because it fuses the menu bar with the toolbar, which basically makes for a more image-oriented menu system. But on a Mac, where the menu bar is pinned to the top? It's just a colossal waste of space. The Mac way to do something like the ribbon is the inspector, and for good reason. The less crap around your actual workspace, the better.

Of course, the Mac Office team's goal isn't to make Mac Office more Mac-like. They want it to be just like Windows Office, because that's what everyone's used to. So we get shit like the ribbon even though it doesn't really belong.

Thank Steve for Pages. I switched two years ago and haven't looked back.

Logic, logic, logic. Logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end.

Last edited by Kraetos : 2010-02-12 at 23:00.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2010-02-12, 22:09

Right on. Me too.

When I sit down at Office - Mac or PC - I feel like I'm going to have a headache. I can almost feel it percolating and coming on, the longer I sit and look at it...



It's truly ridiculous. With all their money and resources, you'd think, by now, Microsoft could hire a few folks who could do some of this stuff better and cleaner. It gets worse and more idiotic every time a new one comes out. We're laughing and groaning about this new 2011 screenshot, but just wait until 2014 rolls around. We'll wish we had the clean organization of Office 2008 or 2011.



I figure by the end of the decade, the writing area for Word will be about four lines. The remaining 94% of the window will be tools and buttons, all stacked and cascading over one another.
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thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2010-02-12, 22:18

Yuck!
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psmith2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2010-02-12, 22:33

BTW, what machine was that screenshot in the opening post taken on? The resolution is 1280x768. Some sort of hacked netbook thingie? MacBooks are 1280x800.
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2010-02-12, 22:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
Duplicating the functionality of the menu bar with a ribbon doesn't really help anyone. It confuses the novice and wastes screen space for the pro.
This.

Quote:
Thank Steve for Pages. I switched two years ago and haven't looked back.
Hear, hear.
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torifile
Less than Stellar Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2010-02-12, 23:20

I've been using Word for YEARS and I still get confused when I have to sit at a computer with Word 2007 or whatever has the ribbon in Windows. I swear to god, I'd rather poke my eyes out with a hot poker than use Word on either the Mac or Windows. We have some forms we need to fill out in Word and I have to use a hybrid of 2007 for Windows and 2008 for Mac to get the damned thing filled out because 2007 is impossible to navigate and 2008 does stupid shit with Spaces.

The sooner we can move to electronic medical records the better....

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
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hflomberg
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
 
2010-02-12, 23:32

Do they still sell Wordstar?
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JohnnyTheA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2010-02-12, 23:41

I'd like to see an option that allows the old GUI (Word 97, 00, 03) to be used rather than what they have. I can't STAND it is when companies change the way existing stuff works. I just want the Word 2000 functionality and thats it. If MSFT manages to force my company to buy the new version, for some crazy reason, fine! But I want to switch the GUI back so I don't have to hunt around for the old features that I am used to.

JTA
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Noel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago
 
2010-02-13, 01:53

The good news is that there is at least always the option to hide the massive toolbars when you're not using them. This doesn't help make them any easier to use, but at least it gets them out of your way.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2010-02-13, 02:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheA View Post
I'd like to see an option that allows the old GUI (Word 97, 00, 03) to be used rather than what they have. I can't STAND it is when companies change the way existing stuff works. I just want the Word 2000 functionality and thats it.
If you don't want the changes that the new versions offer, why upgrade? Just stick with what you have.
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joveblue
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne
 
2010-02-13, 06:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraetos View Post
The Mac way to do something like the ribbon is the inspector, and for good reason. The less crap around your actual workspace, the better.
Office 2008's Inspector + 13" screen = MEGAFAIL

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Hassan i Sabbah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: london and kĂžbenhavn
 
2010-02-13, 10:54

I don't understand.

I have a ribbon already. It is called 'the menu bar.'

Why do I need a second menu bar on the app? Especially one I can't turn off if I want screen real estate?

Why can't they just put the things on the ribbon in sensible places, in the menu bar or in the palettes?

I really don't get it.

gibberish
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2010-02-13, 11:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post
I don't understand.

I have a ribbon already. It is called 'the menu bar.'

Why do I need a second menu bar on the app? ...

Why can't they just put the things on the ribbon in sensible places, in the menu bar or in the palettes?

I really don't get it.
Yeah, I really don't understand why anyone would duplicate menu items as a bar of buttons on top of each window.

Oh, wait.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah View Post
Especially one I can't turn off if I want screen real estate?
Yeah. Look at all this useless screen clutter I can't get rid of!



Oops, that wasn't Office. This is.





I usually love to hate on Office as much as the next guy, but some of this talk just seems like people looking for reasons to bash on it.

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