User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » Apple Products »

New 4K and 5K iMacs


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
New 4K and 5K iMacs
Page 1 of 3 [1] 2 3  Next Thread Tools
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2015-10-13, 10:13

Looks like a decent update across the line however there are some frustrations that carry over that really make me question apple's desire to put out well rounded machines at each price point they sell at and their ability to make daring changes before competitors.

Primarily when it comes to storage on the desktop. Apple was way ahead of the solid state storage curve on laptops but they have handled it so oddly on their desktops. The 21.5" 4K iMac comes with a 5400 RPM disk drive. Not until the $1,999 price point is a fusion drive even made standard. And the new 1TB fusion drive includes just 25GB of solid state storage compared to 128GB in yesterday's model

Apple should have just gone all solid state on the iMac years ago, but they definitely should have done it this round. There is no reason for a $1500 or $1800 desktop to feel more sluggish than a $1,000 MacBook Air. At e very least this new neutered 1TB fusion drive should be standard

They also MacBookified the wireless keyboard with the same feelingless keys. On a half inch thick laptop I get it. On my office desk for a desktop computer? Why?

And it still drives me nuts to have the sd card slot on the back of the machine. I would rather than remove it than pretend that it's location is still functional and not a prime example of form over function.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-10-13, 10:19

I was fully expecting at least one USB-C on the back... what the heck? TB3 would have been a nice addition as well – last month's announcement made me hopeful we'd see it in this refresh. Apple's playing it way too safe here.

On the other hand, lightning in all the magic things. That's fine. The downside is you need El Cap and BT4. I foresee a high return rate for those accessories right off the bat.

So it goes.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2015-10-13, 10:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
I was fully expecting at least one USB-C on the back... what the heck? TB3 would have been a nice addition as well – last month's announcement made me hopeful we'd see it in this refresh. Apple's playing it way too safe here.

On the other hand, lightning in all the magic things. That's fine.
Eh... I'm on an iPad so didn't type the ripping that I wanted to. But take the Magic Mouse. Never mind the fact that there is nothing new about it except a rechargeable battery..... The charging plug is in a position so that it can't be used while charging. It does do some crazy charge in 2 minutes but it's still an odd choice on their behalf.

They should have tried to come up with some kind of wireless charging of the devices when resting on the iMacs stand.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-10-13, 10:44

I think the 4K iMac is so neutered that it would only appeal to the most budget conscious of spec-whores. Retina is the only selling point. It's still using Broadwell chips and it only has integrated graphics (with no option to upgrade). The whole machine just seems like something Apple needed to check off a list. Retina everywhere and all that.

I might be a little salty because I was looking at getting a new 5K, but I'm not biting without USB-C and TB3. Not if I'm keeping it for a few years.

So it goes.
  quote
alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via ICQ to alcimedes  
2015-10-13, 15:19

That's the kicker. It's dated the day you buy it.

How well will that tranlsate forward for the 5+ years of life expectancy people have for their iMacs.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-10-13, 15:34

I like Cook, and I really don't want to blame him, but shit, if Jobs was in his place I surely would. All of these introductions over the last few years have been so fucking lackadaisical. Where is the excitement? Apple faithful used to feed on that, now we're so used to such incremental bullshit we really don't care anymore.

So it goes.
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2015-10-13, 15:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Eh... I'm on an iPad so didn't type the ripping that I wanted to. But take the Magic Mouse. Never mind the fact that there is nothing new about it except a rechargeable battery..... The charging plug is in a position so that it can't be used while charging. It does do some crazy charge in 2 minutes but it's still an odd choice on their behalf.

They should have tried to come up with some kind of wireless charging of the devices when resting on the iMacs stand.
This is so weird. I understand wanting to keep the mouse looking super clean without any visible ports. I'd argue that you could easily slip one on the front edge that would make it usable while charging and it still wouldn't be visible 99% of the time since, you know, mouses point forward.

But putting the charging port on the bottom? And then you have to turn the mouse over to plug it in, so you can't use it while it's charging. So strange.

What excuse does Apple have for not jumping on the wireless charging bandwagon anyway? There's a universally accepted standard and phones have been doing it for years. It lets you cut out the cables (Apple's favorite thing, less cables). Are they just working on building their own proprietary "standard" so they can claim that they invented wireless charging or something? Because a wireless charging mouse would be pretty sweet. Can't let people use their existing charging pads though, you have to make sure they are forced to buy the $50 Apple branded one.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2015-10-13, 16:52

Very strange feature on Apple's website comparing the new iMac to the original 1998 Bondi Blue iMac.

http://www.apple.com/imac/then-and-now/


It's very rare for Apple to make this kind of historical reference and comparison.

What I find most interesting (and depressing) is how that Bondi Blue iMac jumps off the page and looks cooler and has more appeal/character. A surprisingly timeless design appeal.

I wish Apple did more exciting industrial design and wasn't afraid of color. They have become their own high end version of a beige box maker....
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2015-10-13, 16:59

Maybe the current updates are so vanilla, so incremental and underwhelming, that this is their attempt at spicing things up. Get some nostalgia going with long-time users.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2015-10-13, 17:09

It's true.

Put the guts of the latest iMac into the body of the translucent jellybeans. THEN I'd feel like I was using something fun and special again.

It is weird that there's no longer a standalone graphics card option on the 21.5" iMac. I guess that was coming.

As for the storage and all...no shit. I threw a fit back in 2012 or whenever it was these new "thin from only a certain angle" iMacs hit: they're so obsessed with "thin" (who gives a rip on a desktop?) that it's making them downgrade performance. Going from 7200rpm hard drives down to 5400, etc.

It's as if every new version of the iMac gets a little more neutered/tamed (but I don't see the falling prices to help soften that blow). They're taking what was quite an amazing, powerful machine in 2011-2012 and removing anything with any extra bulk or weight (again, on a desktop does anyone care?) and removing all the BTO options they once had (and the ones remaining are quite limited...maybe 1-2 options, tops).

I guess that's the world. Everything's going to phones, laptops, etc.

Did the price go down some, though? I seem to recall pricing a 21.5" iMac a while back with all the goodies (in my case, 16GB RAM, the highest i7 processor option and a 256GB SSD) and it was about $2,399 or so.

Trying to figure out what got cheaper.

I could get that now in this new 4K model for $2,099
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2015-10-13, 19:42

Not surprised at all by Apple's lack lustre updates. A 4k 21" model with a low end notebook drive, last generation CPU, and a barely capable IGP for that price? Don't give a rip about USB-C or TB-3 to be honest, but are are they kidding? It's like the marketing team at Apple has been smoking a little too much lately. I almost wonder if Apple is deliberately trying to kill the iMac, since the value for the dollar on all but the 27" models is out to lunch. I mean, $240 (Cdn store) for a 256GB SSD? Seriously? Stand alone 256GB drive are going for $99 these days. They must be smoking some fine stuff in Cupertino.

Hate to say it, but my next desktop computer is not going to be an Apple product at this rate.
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2015-10-13, 20:24

Quiet refresh sort of update but one that seems a little underwhelming even for that. Of course, that's just us computer enthusiasts crowing over minutia that -- let's be honest -- really doesn't matter to the intended audience of most of these models of iMac. But it's still Apple being a bit flat-footed with keeping their machines relevant against current generation tech, which, for the prices, starts to swing back into 'no, even for what you get this isn't a great value' territory. As ever, computer enthusiasts like all of us here would love to see Apple actually throwing in some more serious options and pushing the price/performance envelope harder. But this update, as ever, only continues Apple's trend of moving away from us.

Sort of think they've backed themselves into a corner somewhat with their design, but more accurately, I think Apple is just continuing to push their profit margins as far as they can. But of course, for as much as it sticks out a bit as less-than ideal or whatever, Apple isn't exactly 'wrong' here either. They're one of the only PC makers to actually have growing sales in an otherwise stagnant market. All-in-Ones overall are becoming the standard form factor for everyone outside of a large corporate office or cheeto dungeon and against other all-in-ones (which, it should be noted, have only grown to become more iMac-like than ever in recent years) iMacs are still pretty much the gold standard and outside of a couple of premium models it's hard to find any that seriously compete. So it all kind of makes sense in that big picture sense, but they continue to drift away from what I and I imagine most of y'all feel is the right ideal for functionality and performance and towards something that is clearly popular and contextually appropriate but solidly different in its priorities.

But who knows, it's easy to say all that at a 'tock' release/spec bump. Maybe next year sees a new design that actually hoists some serious performance and capability back into the systems.
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2015-10-13, 20:25

I would say that the new peripherals all look really good. Especially the trackpad 2, I really like that they're using lightning for charging now (although the location of the port on the mouse is a little odd, at least it only needs a couple of minutes to give you a few hours of usage and has months total time otherwise). The new trackpad looks really cool visually and Apple's pretty much never gotten a trackpad wrong yet. Although the new keyboard seems a bit meh.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-10-13, 20:29

This is great.

It doesn't make me change my mind at all about the shortcomings, but it does lift my spirits wrt Apple somewhat. /thx Gruber
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2015-10-13, 20:39

It is kind of weird to hear Schiller talking about the desktop in terms of what it can/should do w/r/t pushing boundaries of computing and the likes when iMacs have been turning into laptops-on-a-stick for years.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-10-13, 21:31

I still don't understand all these comments. Apple has serious pro computers in the Mac Pro lineup, very near to serious pro computers in the 27" iMac lineup, and great for average use computers in the 21" iMac lineup.

Are the new 21" specs mega-world-serious-gamer-dude computers? No, but when have they ever been?

Same complaints left over from the last rev. The 21" iMac is not gonna be a serious gamer/photoshopper/videographer machine. Ain't gonna happen. Apple makes machines for that stuff, and it isn't the 21" iMac.

The 21" iMac has a very real target audience, and it hasn't changed for so many years it's just silly to continue arguing about it. The target: PC switchers who are accustomed to absolute crap! Oh, and folks with seven year old iMacs in need of replacing. Both of these targets are getting what they want: Better computers with phenomenal displays, good peripherals and reasonable prices (inject "Apple is too much teh money" debate here). Most of the folks buying these things don't know their email program from their ass and are buried up to their hips in malware, viruses, adware and the anti-crapware that's supposed to make it all go away.

Look, when you migrate data from a 5-year-old PC that takes ten minutes to boot, another five to launch IE and half an hour to prep for transfer (i.e. turn off all the anti-crap and misc. 3rd party BS-ware), you can come whine to me about how slow 21" iMacs are. I do this crap every day, and I have yet to land on an old-folks PC that's faster than a base-model, 21" 1.4GHz iMac. The tankers that wander through our doors are so full of garbage they make the local dump look like a buffet!

This update may not blow you guys away, but they sure blow away the target audience.



Oh, and that new Apple Magic Mouse 2 with the charger on the bottom? Stupid! I hate the Magic Mouse. Lamest mouse ever. Magic Mouse 2 takes stupid version 1 and makes it doubly stupid.

Stuuuuuuuuu Ped!

Magic Trackpad 2 is too expensive. $129 means it will sell only to the "gotta have it new thing" crowd. $69 vs. $129 means "MacBook 2.0" (great product, bad price). Magic Keyboard is overpriced as an accessory. The fact that they can include it with a 21" $1099 iMac and maintain profit margins is indicative of gouging for the accessory. I don't predict they will sell until they lose $30. The price of the new mouse is acceptable considering it has a built-in Li-Ion battery, but putting butter on a turd just makes it a greasy turd.

The 21" iMac lineup is basically the same business with slightly updated specs. The $1499 price-point means you now get a 4K display that will look better than any other display in the same price category (just as the 5K 27" does) with a solid machine behind the monitor. The GPU (Iris Pro) will be fine, considering the 15" Retina has been using that same card to drive a similar display for a couple years without any audible grumblings. The drive is a weakness, but the fusion is now just a hundred bucks and will be an easy sell. Also, the 2TB drive will be speedy. Those 2.5" 2TB 5400 drives are super speedy due to their density. The drive we stock (a Samsung) gets 160GB/s, which is twice the same drive in 1TB. I have no doubt the 2TB option will deliver.

As far as the 27" business is concerned, I'll wait for the benchmarks. Basically they are all unchanged (other than price) but have faster guts. My guess is we will see something in the 10-25% range, which is good stuff.

All in all, it isn't huge (other than 21" Retina), but the target audience will be very pleased.

Remember those two words: Target Audience.



Edit: Just to be clear, Apple is not in a spec-pissing contest with Dell/HP/Lenovo/Build-Your-Flavor industry. They never have been and never will be. That is a money-losing game, as the rest of the entire freaking PC/phone/tablet industry can attest to. Apple is a money-making machine whose goals do not include satisfying every single computer user (or phone user or tablet user or TV user). They've figured out how to deliver good products at profitable prices. If that isn't what you're into, there is nothing preventing you from switching.

I don't care if my Mac doesn't "look good on paper". Paper doesn't keep away viruses, work when I turn it on, or do anything other than collect dust. Paper specs are stupid, which is why Apple publishes the bare minimum. However, I predict a day in the not too distant future when Macs will be marketed like iPads and iPhones: With no specs!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2015-10-13, 22:02

I know all that. I'm the least "spec whore" person here, probably.

My specific gripe is how they're actually going backwards/taking away things. iMacs used to have fast hard drives, standalone graphics, etc. If they never had any of those things, nobody would be squawking.

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2015-10-13 at 22:15. Reason: EDIT: I can say more with less. :)
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2015-10-13, 23:58

For how infrequently the mouse needs charging(once a month if that) and for the fact that you get a few *hours* of use from a few *minutes* of charge, I don't think it's that big of an issue to have the connector on the bottom really. It's inelegant, sure, but it's not going to spoil real world usage any more than replacing the batteries does.

FWIW, how many wireless mice with internal batteries still use charging *cradles*?

Last edited by Wrao : 2015-10-14 at 00:09.
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2015-10-14, 00:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I still don't understand all these comments. Apple has serious pro computers in the Mac Pro lineup, very near to serious pro computers in the 27" iMac lineup, and great for average use computers in the 21" iMac lineup.

Are the new 21" specs mega-world-serious-gamer-dude computers? No, but when have they ever been?

Same complaints left over from the last rev. The 21" iMac is not gonna be a serious gamer/photoshopper/videographer machine. Ain't gonna happen. Apple makes machines for that stuff, and it isn't the 21" iMac.

The 21" iMac has a very real target audience, and it hasn't changed for so many years it's just silly to continue arguing about it. The target: PC switchers who are accustomed to absolute crap! Oh, and folks with seven year old iMacs in need of replacing. Both of these targets are getting what they want: Better computers with phenomenal displays, good peripherals and reasonable prices (inject "Apple is too much teh money" debate here). Most of the folks buying these things don't know their email program from their ass and are buried up to their hips in malware, viruses, adware and the anti-crapware that's supposed to make it all go away.

Look, when you migrate data from a 5-year-old PC that takes ten minutes to boot, another five to launch IE and half an hour to prep for transfer (i.e. turn off all the anti-crap and misc. 3rd party BS-ware), you can come whine to me about how slow 21" iMacs are. I do this crap every day, and I have yet to land on an old-folks PC that's faster than a base-model, 21" 1.4GHz iMac. The tankers that wander through our doors are so full of garbage they make the local dump look like a buffet!

This update may not blow you guys away, but they sure blow away the target audience.



Oh, and that new Apple Magic Mouse 2 with the charger on the bottom? Stupid! I hate the Magic Mouse. Lamest mouse ever. Magic Mouse 2 takes stupid version 1 and makes it doubly stupid.

Stuuuuuuuuu Ped!

Magic Trackpad 2 is too expensive. $129 means it will sell only to the "gotta have it new thing" crowd. $69 vs. $129 means "MacBook 2.0" (great product, bad price). Magic Keyboard is overpriced as an accessory. The fact that they can include it with a 21" $1099 iMac and maintain profit margins is indicative of gouging for the accessory. I don't predict they will sell until they lose $30. The price of the new mouse is acceptable considering it has a built-in Li-Ion battery, but putting butter on a turd just makes it a greasy turd.

The 21" iMac lineup is basically the same business with slightly updated specs. The $1499 price-point means you now get a 4K display that will look better than any other display in the same price category (just as the 5K 27" does) with a solid machine behind the monitor. The GPU (Iris Pro) will be fine, considering the 15" Retina has been using that same card to drive a similar display for a couple years without any audible grumblings. The drive is a weakness, but the fusion is now just a hundred bucks and will be an easy sell. Also, the 2TB drive will be speedy. Those 2.5" 2TB 5400 drives are super speedy due to their density. The drive we stock (a Samsung) gets 160GB/s, which is twice the same drive in 1TB. I have no doubt the 2TB option will deliver.

As far as the 27" business is concerned, I'll wait for the benchmarks. Basically they are all unchanged (other than price) but have faster guts. My guess is we will see something in the 10-25% range, which is good stuff.

All in all, it isn't huge (other than 21" Retina), but the target audience will be very pleased.

Remember those two words: Target Audience.



Edit: Just to be clear, Apple is not in a spec-pissing contest with Dell/HP/Lenovo/Build-Your-Flavor industry. They never have been and never will be. That is a money-losing game, as the rest of the entire freaking PC/phone/tablet industry can attest to. Apple is a money-making machine whose goals do not include satisfying every single computer user (or phone user or tablet user or TV user). They've figured out how to deliver good products at profitable prices. If that isn't what you're into, there is nothing preventing you from switching.

I don't care if my Mac doesn't "look good on paper". Paper doesn't keep away viruses, work when I turn it on, or do anything other than collect dust. Paper specs are stupid, which is why Apple publishes the bare minimum. However, I predict a day in the not too distant future when Macs will be marketed like iPads and iPhones: With no specs!

I think you are making way too many assumptions and excuses.

The fact of the matter for me is I've been an iMac owner since 1998. Always own an iMac in addition to a laptop. The iMac I currently have in front of me is 2011 model before they went thin and lost the optical drive and other major features. The reality is that the iMac since 2011 has taken a nosedive as a kick ass desktop all-in-one and has truly become a weaker Apple laptop with a gorgeous display.

The price range that the iMac sells for targets many different demographics, not just your bottom of the range oblivious PC switchers.

Apple has consistently put profit margins ahead of customer experience in recent years.... whether its with the iPhone, iPad or iMacs.

For me? I'm a mac user of 25+ years now. I use it for work and play, and am arguable an expert. Despite that, a Mac Pro at $2,999 and up is never going to be in my house. There was a time when I had PowerMacs... and it was when they had minitowers in the $1,599 to $1,999 price range... I even splurged for the sawtooth G4 at $2,499 (and then got speed dumped). The price range of $1,500-$2,000 is not entry level consumer.

I don't think Apple has a target audience with these.... I think they have a target margin.


Another thing that "modern" Apple ignores on the Mac upgrade cycle is concurrent software advancements. In the 2000s, every iMac release was coupled with major software advancements that for the most part went hand-in-hand with the hardware upgrades. Apple's desktop software development has been stagnant for close to a 7 years now.... honestly. I would argue that almost across the board all of their iWork and iLife apps are either worse or lack major improvements over where they were 7 years ago.

I get it.... iOS and mobile is where it's at.... but Apple still sells 5 million computers a quarter. They are still the most profitable company in the world. A billion dollars to them is shockingly nothing.... but a billion dollars for desktop software development? Surely that would lead to some advancements.

Just my 2 cents.
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2015-10-14, 01:58

Even my gaming PC hasn't seen a single upgrade since 2011, and I consider myself an early adopter. Desktop hardware improvements are glacial right now. It's not really a problem that the base iMac comes with a 5400 RPM HDD. It's perfectly fine for storage and a 7200 RPM model on its own would still be bad. The real issue is the SSD cache / Fusion Drive not being the baseline configuration.

Intel integrated graphics is an issue too, especially with Metal being part of the equation now.

Eh, doesn't matter. iMacs are a niche.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-10-14, 08:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
I don't think Apple has a target audience with these.... I think they have a target margin.
Boom.

This is exactly the problem with 'modern' Apple. Well said.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2015-10-14, 09:20

21" iMac RAM is soldered in. No after-market upgrading.

There's literally no reason to do that. What the fuck, Apple.
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2015-10-14, 09:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I know all that. I'm the least "spec whore" person here, probably.

My specific gripe is how they're actually going backwards/taking away things. iMacs used to have fast hard drives, standalone graphics, etc. If they never had any of those things, nobody would be squawking.
I agree. They've made fusion drives worse, which is going to lead to slower startup times and app launch times and worse perceived performance. As with all modern computers, once the thing is actually up and running, it should be completely fine for nearly all users, who only use them for a web browser and a few games. But if it takes a long time to start apps or fully load the desktop, that's going to reflect poorly on Apple.

And it's one thing to let specs stagnate. As long as you have enough RAM and a decently modern CPU, the rest doesn't matter so much. The problem is there are no other innovations coming. What has Apple done with the iMac in the past 4 years to keep anyone interested? Made it thinner at the expense of it being hotter and slower? Where is the touchscreen iMac? What other features could they add that they haven't? No one would care about the lack of spec-whore incremental upgrades if they were actually changing up the character of the machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
For how infrequently the mouse needs charging(once a month if that) and for the fact that you get a few *hours* of use from a few *minutes* of charge, I don't think it's that big of an issue to have the connector on the bottom really. It's inelegant, sure, but it's not going to spoil real world usage any more than replacing the batteries does.

FWIW, how many wireless mice with internal batteries still use charging *cradles*?
I can't recall seeing a cradle in many years. I have two Logitech wireless mice and one has a micro USB port on the front so you can charge it while using it (also has a removable battery so you can just swap that out as well), and the other just has 2 AAs that you manually swap out. It seems like most mice either go with a front-mounted charging port or removable batteries. If their battery and charging claims are true, then it's not a big annoyance, but it is a puzzling design oversight by a company that is supposed to be renowned for their clever solutions to problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Even my gaming PC hasn't seen a single upgrade since 2011, and I consider myself an early adopter. Desktop hardware improvements are glacial right now. It's not really a problem that the base iMac comes with a 5400 RPM HDD. It's perfectly fine for storage and a 7200 RPM model on its own would still be bad. The real issue is the SSD cache / Fusion Drive not being the baseline configuration.

Intel integrated graphics is an issue too, especially with Metal being part of the equation now.

Eh, doesn't matter. iMacs are a niche.
Yeah exactly. My PC has a Q8400 processor (Core 2 Quad, released 2008) and it's never had a problem with anything. The biggest upgrade since I got it was adding an SSD for the boot drive. Now it boots in like 1 minute and is fully usable within seconds of the desktop appearing. They could skip the fancy high end CPUs and just give them more SSD memory in the fusion drive and it would be a bigger upgrade. Instead, they've downgraded them. It's very disappointing. I'm curious to see how much slower the new models are.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-10-14, 12:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
The reality is that the iMac since 2011 has taken a nosedive as a kick ass desktop all-in-one and has truly become a weaker Apple laptop with a gorgeous display.
Seriously?

I'll assume you're talking about the 21" models, here. Otherwise I'm gonna have to go ahead and take the word of the Pro designers, photographers and videographers I sell these things to. When they turn in their 2011 27" iMacs for 2015 i7 Retinas, I guess they're just lying to themselves about how fast the new systems are. As far as the 21" models are concerned, please show me a 2011 21" iMac that is faster or more "kick ass" than it's current counterpart.

By the way, would you be willing to give me a brand new iMac in exchange for a 2011 model? If so, I'll take you up on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
I don't think Apple has a target audience with these.... I think they have a target margin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
Boom.

This is exactly the problem with 'modern' Apple. Well said.
So, what you guys are saying is that, under Steve Jobs, Apple always chose the better, faster specs over profit margin?












And you say I'm reaching for excuses.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2015-10-14, 12:40

I have a top-end 2011 iMac, 27" and I'm not at all compelled to update it to a more current model, tbh. The performance gains aren't going to be dramatic and the iMac I have now has several details that make it flexible and useful across a variety of tasks (e.g. FW 800 *and* TB, SD card on the side instead of back, optical drive built in, analog headphone out *and* line in) It's a great machine and more directly useful to me than the new models. Only two things I'm missing really is a more modern display(but even then, it's not like the 27" display from 2011 is at all bad, it's still a premium panel) and an SSD(which I could always add when the prices make sense to do so).
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-10-14, 12:45

Let me see if I've got this straight about the 2015 21" rev:

Faster processors
Faster GPUs
Faster RAM
Faster flash storage options (Assuming that 2.5x improvement means jump to PCIe)
Higher screen resolution (1 model)
Higher storage capacity options (excluding base model)
Cheaper Fusion Drive entry (the tradeoff being 24GB FD for $100 vs. 128GB FD for $200 in previous model)
Rechargeable keyboard
Rechargeable mouse

All for the same prices (or less) as before.

And these are bad things?

Oh, wait, that's right. These are bad things because the base model 21" isn't a 4.0 i7 4K w/16GB RAM/1TB PCIe flash/4GB GPU and includes the entire Creative Cloud, all for $6.99!!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-10-14, 14:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
I have a top-end 2011 iMac, 27" and I'm not at all compelled to update it to a more current model, tbh. The performance gains aren't going to be dramatic and the iMac I have now has several details that make it flexible and useful across a variety of tasks (e.g. FW 800 *and* TB, SD card on the side instead of back, optical drive built in, analog headphone out *and* line in) It's a great machine and more directly useful to me than the new models. Only two things I'm missing really is a more modern display(but even then, it's not like the 27" display from 2011 is at all bad, it's still a premium panel) and an SSD(which I could always add when the prices make sense to do so).
The 2011 Quad i7 27" is a great computer. We can still get upwards of $1500 for them used. I wasn't talking it down. Rather, BU proclaimed everything since then to be downhill.

But, this I can guarantee: There is nothing you can do to your current 2011 to make it as fast/faster than the 2015 model just released. 2.5" SSD's are going to typically run (at the top end) around 550MB/s, but the SSD options in the latest iMacs are not 2.5" SATA, they're PCIe flash cards and way faster. Your proc, RAM and GPU are slower and nothing can be done to rectify that. You have TB 1, not 2. Your bluetooth and WiFi are slower, etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong. Again, you have a great machine. It has things you want (CD/DVD, side-load SD, FW, etc.). I am only responding to the notion that the current iMacs are no longer "kick-ass".

Yes, they are. Just as much as they were in 2011.



Just because Apple is willing to let go of outdated tech doesn't make them inferior. The DVD argument is now completing it's fifth year. Let it go. it ain't coming back. Soldered RAM is the future. Don't like it? There are lots of used systems available, and plenty of PC's (which will lag behind as they always have for fear of the same arguments Mac user should be accustomed to ). Thin is the new light. Also isn't going anywhere. Thin sells lots of Macs. Do they need to be thin? Nope. But they are.

Thinner may or may not be better. Depends on your outlook. Thinner uses less resources (environment), is cheaper to ship (fuel costs and environment), weighs less (easier for old people to set up themselves, which is huge if you like your independence; again, fuel costs and environment). Thinner looks better and feels better. I get that thinner for the sake of thinner is not necessary (for most) on the desktop. But innovation and forward thinking require compromise. If one is not willing to compromise then one must be willing to drag legacy technology forward, which is why Microsoft lost their edge.

All these arguments are proof that we should still be using punch cards and 8-track tapes. Each step forward means we have to buy new things and delegate old things to the dustbin. That costs money and carries us into unfamiliar space, which we don't like. We don't like it when we have to buy an external 3.5" Floppy drive any more than we don't like it when we have to buy an external CD/DVD drive. So, we whine about having to buy one because "thin is the stupid". Amazingly, I don't hear any more whining about 3.5" floppies, although whining about them was all the rage in 1998. "How am I gonna install software I never use?" "How am I gonna access all those years of files I don't need anymore but like to whine about?"

The same argument is repeating itself. "You mean I have to replace all my LP's with these 8-track things?" "You mean I have to replace all my 8-track things with cassettes?" "You mean I have to replace all my cassettes with CD's?" Wash, rinse, repeat … progress.

"You mean I have to replace all my VHS cassettes with DVD's?" "You mean I have to replace all my DVD's with BlueRay?" "You mean I have to replace all my BlueRay with 4Kxx?" Wash, rinse, repeat … progress.

"You mean I have to replace all my VGA adapters with DVI adapters?" "You mean I have to replace all my DVD adapters with Displayport adapters?" Wash, rinse, repeat … progress.

I'm all for progress in computers. Solder that RAM if it makes my laptop thinner. Get rid of that power-hungry, noisy, scratching DVD drive to lighten things up and improve reliability. I'm for those things, and will gladly spend a tad more for an adapter to help through the transition. 8GB of RAM is plenty (for 90% of buyers) and will continue to be so for the life of the computer. For the other 10% who worry about it, you have an upgrade option (negative side is you must be thinking further ahead, which we don't like).

I have had a bondi-blue iMac, a 15" G4 iMac, a 2008 20" C2D iMac and a 2009 21.5" C2D. Every single iteration has followed the same general design principals: Mid-tier CPU, GPU, RAM and storage. They have always been all-in-one, have gotten progressively thinner/lighter/better, have dropped legacy technologies like hot rocks while adopting the latest new-things, always increasing in speed year-over-year. They have evolved from CD-only to CD and DVD burning. RAM has progressed from stupid DIMMs to high-speed SODIMMs to soldered-on-the-board. Drives used to be slow-ass 3.5" ATA's, then they were fast SATA's, now it's PCIe flash that is quickly blurring the line between storage and memory. Monitors have built from the 15" (13" viewable) 640x480 CRT to the holy-cow 4096 x 2304 LCD. The bondi-blue weighed in at 40 pounds while the latest is barely over 12 and uses a fraction of the electricity. When I look at what I can buy now for $1100 vs. the $2000 I spent in 2002 on a 15" G4 iMac (that I still have) I can only laugh.

To say iMacs are going backwards is just short-sighted whining. The people who buy 90% of those things know they're taking a dramatic leap forward! Huge! And their lack of complaining tells me Apple is hitting the nail squarely on the targeted head!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2015-10-14, 15:21

It occurs to me that it's probably not long before Apple straight up makes their own graphics cards for iMacs and MacBooks. To what extent it could be something like buying ATI/AMD outright or working out a deal where they take a more active role in the design. Seems inevitable given everything else Apple has been doing and it would allow them to (likely) continue to move in the direction they want to move with less impediment/reliance on waiting for GPU tech to be where they need it to be.
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2015-10-14, 15:32

Said it multiple times already. Desktop CPU/GPU advances have become glacial across the industry. So what if a late 2015 iMac update isn't big enough for you? You're not supposed to upgrade your Mac every year.

I agree that a 5400RPM is questionable, but it's not out of this world crazy...higher platter density has resulted in these drives being adequate. The point of the lowest price iMac isn't to blow you away. It's intentionally neutered so you're compelled to look up.

Soldered RAM? How many people actively complain about this with their Airs and rMBPs? Select an appropriate amount of RAM at the time of purchase. The only consequence is ease of repair. For most people that necessitates a trip to an Apple Store anyway.

Anyway this shit happened continually under Jobs ever since he came back in 1997. Does nobody remember the "Yikes" G4? What about paying $50 extra for a black iBook? What about the Mac Pro having stupendously outdated graphics card options for half a decade?

Last edited by Eugene : 2015-10-14 at 15:43.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2015-10-14, 16:28

The progress of the A-series chips is pretty extraordinary. The iPhones 6s get performance scores on par with the 12" MacBook, which is pretty incredible when you stop to think about what Apple has actually accomplished.

Although I think it will be that Apple uses PowerVR with a bazillion cores as opposed to buying ATI. It would make more long-term sense to buy Intel, which has better fabs, but methinks the FTC would never approve such a deal (monopoly and anti-competition with other PC makers). It will never happen. ATI is a big maybe, but where are they in fab capacity/nanometers? I wonder if they could meet the required hurdles.

Something will give. Just a matter of time.

Also, I think the chip industry is banging its collective head against the physical limitations of silicon processors. The die sizes can't get much smaller (1 nanometer is the limit). The advances will come in software/hardware integration (like Metal) which remove the middleware. Unless there is some major breakthrough, what other options exist? Power efficiency seems mostly related to smaller dies and better software management/idle time. Honestly, I have no idea what I'm talking about at that level, but it seems that the only company making truly revolutionary progress in chip design is Apple, and that appears to be because they are tailoring their chips to their software, and vice versa, as opposed to any new developments at the semi-conductor level. No one else can do that.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Page 1 of 3 [1] 2 3  Next

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
iMacs now up to 3.06 GHz chucker Apple Products 100 2008-05-09 16:30
Freezing Al iMacs tsa Genius Bar 12 2007-11-07 00:31
The Next iMacs Metropolis Man Speculation and Rumors 8 2007-01-04 15:07
Rev. 2 iMacs and Fan Noise switchah Apple Products 13 2006-09-18 14:50
Can you put Mini-DV in iMacs? Fooboy General Discussion 12 2006-01-04 23:24


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2024, AppleNova