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Apple in your den, pocket, etc...cell phone next?


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Apple in your den, pocket, etc...cell phone next?
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billybobsky
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2006-09-14, 20:35

I should also say that you don't need to answer your cell phone at all.
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psmith2.0
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2006-09-14, 20:45

For the past hour or so, I've been trying to imagine (okay, it's a slow Thursday night and I'm a bit bored) a "non numerical keypad life". I've yet to feel like I'd be "missing out", or that I couldn't make it with a device like the one I doodled earlier (scroll wheel only, tied to software "dialing" and "typing".

This is how I see it (YMMV):

You use those numbers (0-9) to call out. Or to send a page. That's it. That's the only purpose, that I'm aware of, having that traditional 3x4 array of numbers available.

With everyone doing texting, e-mail, etc., I think they've adapted to that set-up because they've had to. I fail to understand how a 0-9 key system (with 3-4 letters per key, that you have to toggle through) is the ideal? It's "the way it is" because that's just how it is.

I'm certainly open to a better, more familiar, linear way (like a keyboard layout, OR even just the numbers listed in straight order, each one able to be scrolled to and instantly selected.

I composed a few dummy/text messages on my phone this evening...it takes me forever just to make a short sentence. I honestly don't know how people can do this with any regularity, and with such speed (I'd rather send a letter via snail mail and wait three days than try to send word/letter-based messages using a phone's numeric keypad!)

The most I'd ever text or e-mail on a device like this anyway is just a 2-5 sentence "hey, we're meeting at Outback after work instead" or "the roads to the airport were pretty icy...did you make it okay? Call me when you make it home". That's it...short and sweet. Not true, long e-mails or essays (or message board posts). I know I could whip those kinds of things out a bazillion times faster with my little virtual keyboard, or alphabetical letter/number array.

As for your "watch with no numbers" comparison, Chris, that's not a very good one: a watch without numbers is truly useless. It's the essence of a watch, numbers to tell time with.

...but I don't think a phone necessarily has to have the 12-key, 0-9 3x4 numerical keypad to do what it does. If people got fast (strictly out of necessity and there being no other, more logical way) at numeric pad text messaging, surely they could take to another, more letter-based and straightforward way.


Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2006-09-14 at 20:52.
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psmith2.0
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2006-09-14, 20:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGregor View Post
Sorry pscates, but I don't see how a scrollwheel and qwerty would be anything but incredibly confusing. QWERTY only works because people have "muscle" memory from typing, not because they have a visual idea of the keyboard. The most used keys are near the center, but that doesn't end up being really useful when you have to scroll. I see even the terrible cellphone number pads as easier to figure out.
...and that's why I also mentioned, at least twice, there being a preference setting to lay the numbers out 1-0, and the letters out alphabetically A, B, C, etc.

Some people - because you're right about the QWERTY layout and muscle memory, etc. - may very prefer that layout. Like the new iPod scroll/search feature. *

You do that a few times and you probably get good at zinging right to your desired letter or number, I bet.

I think the numeric keypad sucks as a means of text entry. Good thing I'm not a text messaging little monkey like some folks are.

No need to apologize...we've all got our opinions on the matter.

* (although I have to say: I'm a typing fool and have been for 14 or so years, hardcore...I actually do have a pretty solid "visual idea of the keyboard", and I tend to see it in my head even when I'm not in front of one. When I see letters or words, that's my point of reference: a keyboard . If I'm spelling a word to someone, or thinking about a word, mentally I'm imagining it on a keyboard (weirdo habit, for years). I know exactly where every letter, character, etc. is (even though I touch-type very fast for someone who isn't a trained secretary/office skills type, I'm still ultra-familiar with the layout, so I could go either way, I think). Probably lots of other people - who type even more than me for a living - could too?

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2006-09-14 at 21:00.
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BuonRotto
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2006-09-14, 21:55

One bit of nostalgia for you though, and a bit of a critique of Paul's mock=up above:

remember that old timey rotary phones turned counter-clockwise. 1 was at the upper right of the circle, 2 was to its left, and nine was below 1, but you had to go around the "long" way. (The old joke was that 911 should be changed because of the precious time wasted waiting for the dial to return to its normal position after dialing the first 9.) It would be kind neat to have a mobile phone do the same thing. Then clockwise turning could have a different function, kind of a rudimentary gestural interface.
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Brave Ulysses
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2006-09-14, 22:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
One bit of nostalgia for you though, and a bit of a critique of Paul's mock=up above:

remember that old timey rotary phones turned counter-clockwise. 1 was at the upper right of the circle, 2 was to its left, and nine was below 1, but you had to go around the "long" way. (The old joke was that 911 should be changed because of the precious time wasted waiting for the dial to return to its normal position after dialing the first 9.) It would be kind neat to have a mobile phone do the same thing. Then clockwise turning could have a different function, kind of a rudimentary gestural interface.
Nostalgia over function?

No thanks.
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Kickaha
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2006-09-14, 22:12

Let's go nuts.

It's been shown repeatedly that angular muscle memory in our hands is much stronger than linear muscle memory. Angular (wheel) menus *consistently* outperform rectangular ones for speed of access once muscle memory is in place.

Soooooo... the rotary number dial is a start. Why not a rotary letter wheel? Make it nested, so you have a spiral if necessary. Heck, have it predictive so if you pick an E, the next most common letters are provided on the interior ring for quick access, etc.

I've seen predictive keypad input that was *remarkably* good, and I can only believe that adding rotary menu access would make it more efficient.

C'mon guys, think outside the box a bit. You've got a scroll wheel that no one else has, and that has proven itself as a viable input device. It excels at lists, and the input dictionary is a small set, so the list can be made circular if necessary. Consider ways that the numeric keypad *and* the alphanumeric keyboard can be ditched, if possible. I already believe that the numeric keypad is utterly redundant with a scroll wheel, and I remain to be convinced that the alphanumeric keypad is still required as well. I mean heck, worst case, make the screen touch sensitive, and modify it between modes, like that recent patent filing from Apple.
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BarracksSi
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2006-09-15, 05:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
The most I'd ever text or e-mail on a device like this anyway is just a 2-5 sentence "hey, we're meeting at Outback after work instead" or "the roads to the airport were pretty icy...did you make it okay? Call me when you make it home". That's it...short and sweet. Not true, long e-mails or essays (or message board posts). I know I could whip those kinds of things out a bazillion times faster with my little virtual keyboard, or alphabetical letter/number array.
Well, those messages are still way too long , and the T9 word-guessing method helps speed things along, too.

But anyway, here's a UK mag showing a photo of a French magazine that leaked what they claimed to be an Apple-credited pic of an Apple phone:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/09...hone_at_large/
(hopefully the pic will show up)
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Messiahtosh
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2006-09-15, 07:57

And that thing looks absolutely HUGE.
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psmith2.0
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2006-09-15, 08:08

I'm guessing it's not actual size, Chris.

Seriously, though...compare it to the headphone size. Certainly appears smaller than a 5G iPod to me. Maybe not "nano" small, but still little.

For the record, I'm not buying it. WAY too easy to create that phone image in Photoshop. All you need is a good PR pic or two of the black 5G iPod and about 30-45 minutes. The rest is just Photoshop fun.

And I'd even go so far as to bet that it won't be called something as predictable as iPhone.

Of course, I say all that and watch it turn out to be the real thing...



I can't win.
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turtle
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2006-09-15, 08:28

If there is any truth to that picture I wouldn't complain. It doesn't look bad at all, thought a little less harsh in the outer edge might be nice, but still not bad.

Cool aluminum colors would be awesome! It looks about the size of nano anyway.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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psmith2.0
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2006-09-15, 08:44

I'd be okay with white or silver. Or, of course, a nice burnt, coppery metallic orange too.

But I'm not big on the black hardware from Apple. I've just never liked that look in electronics. I like silver most of all...timeless, sleek, looks like a high-tech color for a piece of high-tech equipment.

Basically anything that isn't brown.
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Miko
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2006-09-15, 09:39

If this is real, I hope Apple is going to give it the aluminum treatment, phone+pocket+keys+change=hella scratches.

Some things that make me think this is fake:

Apple just redesigned their headphones, these still look like the old models and in black no less, if Apple was going to introduce black headphones I think they would of done it with the black iPods.

iPhone is just too easy.

What's that on the side? not a connector it wouldn't make sense to move the connector from the bottom to the side, some kind of memory slot maybe.

Last edited by Miko : 2006-09-15 at 09:50.
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BuonRotto
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2006-09-15, 10:12

it still looks big compared to the ear buds. Looks bigger than my mini. Also, the little phone icons are sooooo un-Apple! Meh, doing a fake newspaper is too easy. I need blurry pics from an elevator in Cupertino fake if I'm going to be entertained!
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Engine Joe
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2006-09-15, 10:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko View Post
Apple just redesigned their headphones, these still look like the old models and in black no less, if Apple was going to introduce black headphones I think they would of done it with the black iPods.
I agree with this reasoning completely. I say fake.
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Brave Ulysses
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2006-09-15, 11:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
C'mon guys, think outside the box a bit. You've got a scroll wheel that no one else has, and that has proven itself as a viable input device. It excels at lists, and the input dictionary is a small set, so the list can be made circular if necessary. Consider ways that the numeric keypad *and* the alphanumeric keyboard can be ditched, if possible. I already believe that the numeric keypad is utterly redundant with a scroll wheel, and I remain to be convinced that the alphanumeric keypad is still required as well. I mean heck, worst case, make the screen touch sensitive, and modify it between modes, like that recent patent filing from Apple.
The scroll wheel has not proved itself as a viable input device. In fact, just last week it received its first attempt at actual input.

It has simply proven itself as a viable selection device.

A scroll wheel quite simply sucks for input.

A numeric pad may suck for text messages but you don't replace one sucky option with another sucky one.

And I dare you to prove to me that you would be able to type a text message and also type in a phone number quicker with a scroll wheel than with a numeric pad.

Just because the scroll wheel works perfectly on the iPod does mean it's the universal solution. THAT is thinking inside the box.
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Messiahtosh
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2006-09-15, 12:45

Thinksecret just stated that their sources claim that Apple is going to release a phone at MacWorld in January, followed by 2 other models as 2007 unfolds..
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Kickaha
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2006-09-15, 12:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
The scroll wheel has not proved itself as a viable input device. In fact, just last week it received its first attempt at actual input.

It has simply proven itself as a viable selection device.
And exactly what do you think input is? "I'd like to input *that* item there, thank you." A keyboard is an array of possible selections, and you select which one you'd like to input next, for chrissakes.

Quote:
A scroll wheel quite simply sucks for input.
Proof? Given that picking an item out of a list *IS* input, and that it excels at it, I'd love to see your proof of this assertion.

Quote:
A numeric pad may suck for text messages but you don't replace one sucky option with another sucky one.
You do replace it with a less sucky one, however. Status quo is stagnation. The uses of a phone have far outpaced the design, and it needs to catch up.

Quote:
And I dare you to prove to me that you would be able to type a text message and also type in a phone number quicker with a scroll wheel than with a numeric pad.
I bet I could draw a picture to send to someone faster with a tablet than with a D pad - does that mean we should include those on phones too? No, because it's not a common task, and it's certainly not the *most* common task.

The most common task is the one that should be addressed as the primary function of the device. On modern cell phones, manual dialing is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT* the common task. List item selection is. The primary input should be designed for that, not secondary tasks such as numeric or alphanumeric input.

It used to be that manual dialing was the most common (the only) use, so the keypad was perfect. Now? Not so much. In fact, it may be just about the least optimal input device one could come up with for modern use patterns.

A keypad sucks for list selection, and yet you think it should be the primary input approach on a device that has list selection as the most common use case? Thank god you're not in engineering.

Quote:
Just because the scroll wheel works perfectly on the iPod does mean it's the universal solution. THAT is thinking inside the box.
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Brave Ulysses
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2006-09-15, 13:19

Wow. You really believe your bullshit

Quote:
And exactly what do you think input is? "I'd like to input *that* item there, thank you." A keyboard is an array of possible selections, and you select which one you'd like to input next, for chrissakes.
I don't care what your technical definition of a computer input device is. The scroll wheel makes selection easy and fast. It makes inputting numbers, text, or anything else that you have to "create" hard. It's not ideal.

Quote:
Proof? Given that picking an item out of a list *IS* input, and that it excels at it, I'd love to see your proof of this assertion.
Proof? Just think logically. How about some proof of otherwise?

Quote:
The most common task is the one that should be addressed as the primary function of the device. On modern cell phones, manual dialing is *NOT*, I repeat *NOT* the common task. List item selection is. The primary input should be designed for that, not secondary tasks such as numeric or alphanumeric input.
I strongly beg to differ with your belief. Speed dialing, answering of calls, texting, calling a number back are the most common functions.

[qupte]
A keypad sucks for list selection, and yet you think it should be the primary input approach on a device that has list selection as the most common use case? Thank god you're not in engineering.[/quote]

Show me one phone where list selection is done by a keypad and I'll give you $100.

You lack common sense. You just want to change something for the sake of changing it and thinking that's progress. Thank god you are not a designer.

And I am in engineering.



This whole suggestion of replacing everything with a scroll wheel is assinine. One does not have to replace the other. It would be much more ideal to replace the current dpad buttons on cell phones with a small scroll wheel and retain a number pad.
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Kickaha
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2006-09-15, 13:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Wow. You really believe your bullshit


Quote:
I don't care what your technical definition of a computer input device is. The scroll wheel makes selection easy and fast. It makes inputting numbers, text, or anything else that you have to "create" hard. It's not ideal.
Really? You *CREATE* letters on the fly? Bullshit. You *SELECT* letters and numbers on the fly. This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
Proof? Just think logically. How about some proof of otherwise?
Dude. Think. Selection == input. List selection is what the scroll wheel excels at. Again, this isn't rocket science. You made the initial erroneous claim that a scroll wheel sucks at input, onus of proof is on you. Show me proof that the scroll wheel sucks at your input. Hell, I'll even give you your flawed definition of input. Oh wait. By your definition, the scroll wheel has *never* been used for input prior to now, so there won't be any proof of your assertion. Oops.

Which way do you want to wiggle now?

Quote:
I strongly beg to differ with your belief. Speed dialing, answering of calls, texting, calling a number back are the most common functions.
Speed dialing - selection from a predefined list.
Answering of calls - one button, keypad not needed.
Texting - use it about once a month, most people I know are the same.
Calling a number back - selection from a predefined list.

Sorry, but I see no numeric input up there at all. Explain to me again why a numeric keypad is so important?

Quote:
Show me one phone where list selection is done by a keypad and I'll give you $100.
My Nokia 6015i. I hit 'Contacts', and then punch in the LETTER on the NUMERIC KEYPAD that I want it to scroll to. I continue typing LETTERS on the NUMERIC KEYPAD until it gets to the sublist I want, and then I can use the up/down buttons to get directly to it. Yes, the all caps are for your benefit so you can see the *slight* disconnect there with the current approach.

You can send the check to the address in your PM box.

And yes, I'm serious about that. Pay up or shut up.

Could I use the up/down buttons *exclusively*? Sure! And it would be horrendous painful. But gee, there's got to be another input device that would be better for list selection, if I could just think of what it could be... hmmm...

Quote:
You lack common sense. You just want to change something for the sake of changing it and thinking that's progress. Thank god you are not a designer.

And I am in engineering.
I'm actually very sorry to hear that, because if you can't see the logic in simple use case analysis, then... *shrug*

Quote:
This whole suggestion of replacing everything with a scroll wheel is assinine. One does not have to replace the other. It would be much more ideal to replace the current dpad buttons on cell phones with a small scroll wheel and retain a number pad.
Again, why the fetishistic adherence to the number pad? Your example use case list above had *no numeric input*. None! So why hobble the device with a number pad?? You aren't making *any* sense at this point.

At *most* I'd see a primary (not small) scroll wheel, and a hidden (or touchscreen, would be perfect) small alphanumeric keyboard, and get rid of the numeric keypad altogether. It's last on the list of use cases, it stinks for alphanumeric entry, and it is horrible for list selection compared to a scroll wheel. The *only* reason to retain one is for nostalgia... or, well, because there's no analysis going on.

Last edited by Kickaha : 2006-09-15 at 14:20. Reason: Removed address, sent via PM instead.
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psmith2.0
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2006-09-15, 13:52

Kickaha, socking it to the numeric keypad folks AND the gun control proponents...all on the same day.

You got your hands full, my man. Give 'em both barrels!

Oops...uh... :

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Kickaha
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2006-09-15, 13:55



Yeah, maybe I should get some work done...
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Banana
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2006-09-15, 13:58

While I can agree that scroll wheel makes much more sense for inputting numbers, selecting from list, I'm not as convinced that it's good for text message. Maybe I'm in minority here, but when I had sidekick, that was basically all what I did; send IMs or text message. Heck, I made calls this way (wireless relay)! Doing this on a scroll wheel would be slower than if I hunt and peck my keyboard with my nose.

I do hope there is a full QWERTY keyboard, but won't be disappointed if there weren't, as it may not be one of Apple's target audience.
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Kickaha
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2006-09-15, 14:04

I'll be the first to admit that replacing a fully alphanumeric keyboard with a scroll wheel is an unknown. I was actually a bit disappointed to see the search function added to the iPods use a linear list of letters, to be honest.

But to keep the numeric keypad is just silly. Ditch it, save the space, replace it with the scroll wheel. *THEN* consider adding a mini keyboard, although I still believe that better solutions exist. Predictive input is a really neat step forward, and there may be ways to take advantage of that.

We've got a rotary input device, we know that angular muscle memory is stronger (and more precise) in the hand and fingers (look up the research on rotary/wheel/pie menus sometime), so why the heck aren't we investigating using it?? The sticking point is whether the scroll wheel is as efficient for quick, repeated selection from a statically defined list of ~50 items, as it is for single selection from a dynamically defined list of thousands. My guess is that it can be, particularly if you take advantage of our own physiological tendencies.

In any case, the numeric keypad has outlived its primary function.
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BuonRotto
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2006-09-15, 14:42

More food for thought: voice recognition has come a long way; you're making a phone call where you, you know, plan to talk; you might be busy driving or something...

isn't just saying the damn phone number easier then typing it in?

This obviously doesn't cover SMS/MMS, but in terms of your basic phone feature, isn't voice recognition really a better UI for a voice-centric medium anyway? Hell, taking it a step further, if I could send a text message without using any keyboard, I'd probably do it more often. In that case of course, we're talking much more complex. But surely having a phone recognize ten numerals spoken aloud is a lot easier than the whole process for getting something like a full lexicon for messages in the very least.
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Brave Ulysses
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2006-09-15, 14:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
This obviously doesn't cover SMS/MMS, but in terms of your basic phone feature, isn't voice recognition really a better UI for a voice-centric medium anyway? Hell, taking it a step further, if I could send a text message without using any keyboard, I'd probably do it more often. In that case of course, we're talking much more complex. But surely having a phone recognize ten numerals spoken aloud is a lot easier than the whole process for getting something like a full lexicon for messages in the very least.

funny you mention that since Sprint phones now have voice recognition text messaging. But that doesn't help when you need to be silent while sending a text.

As for Kickaha, I'll respond later. Got too much work to do
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Kickaha
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2006-09-15, 15:00

Excellent news on the voice recog. Much better than the current match-to-pre-record that I have on my Nokia for dialing pre-set numbers. Point about needing to be silent at times taken.
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BuonRotto
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2006-09-15, 15:46

Yeah, I know it's not what you want for messaging all the time, but for the argument over a numeric keypad and entering phone numbers, really, a voice-driven UI is much preferred I would think.

Now onto the stumbling block that is messaging....

Seems like keyboards get too small on a blackberry, personally. That or they're too big for a phone, you know? God knows, having to click the 7 button 4 times to use the highly common letter S is a pain. Relying on a (or maybe my vocabulary is too large) T9-type system to get what I want is an incredible kludge too. What invention would fulfill the problem of wanting a complete alphabet/dictionary at your disposal and also be very compact? Don't say a scroll wheel!
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Banana
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2006-09-15, 15:49

I was thinking about a "smart" keyboard with just scroll wheel or a couple buttons or whatever that tries to predict what next letter you will use and always keep vowels close, so you rarely have to click more than two to get the desired letter.

However, that'd be typical Mircosoft-ish and would probably require a decade of research before they come up with the right algorithms that is easy to learn and use.
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psmith2.0
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2006-09-15, 15:56

Regarding voice recognition: on numbers you've got programmed in, you could just say "Mom, work", "James, cell" or "Mariska, home"? And not even have to say the number? Because I don't know many of the more obscure numbers (cell, work, etc.) of many friends and family.

Just say the person's name, and which one of their numbers you wanted (home, work or cell)?

I'd love it, sure! Even less reason for the stupid numeric keys...

[ducks]

I'm betting Apple, in typical fashion, turns this stuff on its head (for the best), and will make this as easy/fun and "well, duh!" as many ideas talked about here. It'll be pretty cool. I'm certainly going to stretch this little Samsung flip-phone out for another few months, and see what Apple offers in this area.

Hope they offer it in Zune brown!
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Kickaha
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2006-09-15, 16:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
Yeah, I know it's not what you want for messaging all the time, but for the argument over a numeric keypad and entering phone numbers, really, a voice-driven UI is much preferred I would think.

Now onto the stumbling block that is messaging....

Seems like keyboards get too small on a blackberry, personally. That or they're too big for a phone, you know? God knows, having to click the 7 button 4 times to use the highly common letter S is a pain. Relying on a (or maybe my vocabulary is too large) T9-type system to get what I want is an incredible kludge too. What invention would fulfill the problem of wanting a complete alphabet/dictionary at your disposal and also be very compact? Don't say a scroll wheel!
"a scroll wheel"

Sorry, couldn't resist...

Seriously, I think there's an opportunity for at least *thinking* about the possibilities with a scroll wheel and alphanumeric input, which is really all I was advocating in the beginning. (Brave Ulysses, it wasn't until you dismissed the whole idea out of hand, favor of just using a numeric keypad, that I got annoyed. For god's sake, we're trying to have a creative discussion here, not state unequivocally what should be done. :P)

Predictive input is surprisingly useful, in my experience. It does, however, suffer from the fact that it's not something you can explain to a neophyte in five seconds, like scrolling through a list is.

I do think that teensy little QWERTY keyboards are just... well, to be honest, the first time I saw a picture of one, I seriously thought it was a joke. I mean, that couldn't possibly be someone's idea of a real product, right? *shrug* While they work 'okay', they suffer from a number of drawbacks, so I'm always looking for ways to improve on it. Call it a pet peeve.

*Other than texting input*, I don't see why an iPhone would need anything more than a scroll wheel. Now it just stands to figure out whether a scroll wheel *can* be used as a valid alphanumeric input device, or whether a keyboard (real or virtual) would be more effective.

My pie-in-the-sky suggestion that I think would have a possible shot at being highly efficient? A ring of letters on screen. A selector that goes around the ring, tied to the physical location of your finger on the wheel. ie, if your finger is top dead center on the wheel, the selector is on the top dead center letter. In other words, there is a physical mapping between the letter and a physical location -> muscle memory. Click to select. Given how fast one can spin around the circle, and how precise angular muscle memory is, I think this is doable. It gives repeatable access, and assuming a basic 26 letters + 1 space for the simplest (caps handled as on my numeric keypad input - space makes next character cap by default), gives just over 13 degrees per entry on the ring. Since angular muscle memory is generally precise to within 2 degrees (I said it was better ), this is *MORE* than enough room, and really, the size of the screen displaying the ring would be the limiting factor at that point.
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