[kieran]

So, my M1 MBP decided to just start flashing the Apple logo when trying to boot today.

Sat on my desk for a few days, so the battery died. After I plugged it in, the screen comes on with the white Apple logo for a few seconds, but then it flashes away. I can’t even hold the power button down to get to the boot options.

Sucks to have something go wrong so quickly. Thankfully, the Apple Store here in NYC at Fifth Avenue is open 24 hours a day, so a nice and early 6:45 am genius appointment is on the books (They actually had appointments at 1:30 and 3:30 am, but that’s just way too late/early)

[chucker]

Aww.

Have you tried a PMU reset? It seems Big Sur has some shipped some buggy firmware lately. (I'm not sure if M1 Macs have a bridgeOS any more in that sense, though.)

[psmith2.0]

Ouch. Hope it gets fixed. That’s cool the Apple store there is 24/7. That helps.

[kieran]

I did try the SMU reset. (ATP has that in my head now)

I took it in this morning. The screen kept flashing and they didn’t really try much. Not sure there are many side hacks for M1 Macs yet. They took it and are shipping it out with expected shipping back to me next week. Most likely a logic board and screen replacement.

Just wish Apple had like a “loaner” program because now I’m out of my notebook for a week or so.

[psmith2.0]

Wow, I assumed they had something like that in place. For the money spent, upfront, on these things - and on a brand new, just released model, still under warranty, especially - you shouldn’t be going without for one day. Let alone one week.

That’s an eye-opener.

Mind you, I'm not saying they should provide a 1:1 replacement (you may have custom RAM or storage configuration that they couldn't possibly predict and keep all those variations on hand, etc.). But they should have a few basic, stock $999 MacBook Airs on hand for loaners, so people can have a to use...especially on under-warranty Macs that aren't even two months old. They have no idea if this is your only computer or not, and you might be dead in the water for work/school, etc.

I hope this is an odd, isolated thing and not something that will blow up, across the line, in weeks/months to come. All the news/coverage on the M1 front has been so positive and “this is the way” , I’d hate for this to be a dark cloud.

You’re taking it better than I would be, I guess. I’d have a “loaner”, even if I had to snatch a display unit and run out the door.

J/k of course. But still, that’s unfortunate.

[PB PM]

The rule still stands, don’t buy a Rev1 Apple product, unless you like beta testing.

I think I saw an article recently, maybe on 9to5 Mac, about the new recovery methods for M1 Macs, they are different from Intel machines. New key combinations are required for NetBoot and recovery, and all.

[psmith2.0]

These things have been out on the street for a couple of months now? I guess now is the time, if this were truly a mass issue, we'd start to hear about it, this first quarter or so of 2021. I'm just hoping it's an isolated fluke/bad luck (it happens). Still sucks for kieran, no matter what.

If something like this happened to me, I'd have a tough go, logistically. The nearest Apple store to me is Knoxville, about 90 minutes north of here, give or take, up I-75. And, last I checked, they just had regular mall type hours (it's in a large shopping mall, on the southern outskirts/suburbs of the city). So even if I wanted to drive up there at 3:30am for an appointment/fix, I couldn't. EDIT: They're temporarily closed anyway, according to Apple's site.

I truly had no idea there were 24/7 Apple Stores until kieran's post above. Do they stay busy/hopping at all hours? I suppose in a place like NYC, they do? There are always shoppers in there?

Blows my little small-town mind. Everything here, except bars/restaurants, closes up at 9-10pm (and on Sundays, many places call it a day by 6pm or so).

[turtle]

I really wish Apple had and advanced exchange service. Even if it meant I gave them a credit card to hold hostage while I had their goods. They wouldn't be out any money and I wouldn't be out my device. I guess the headache just isn't worth it to them.

[psmith2.0]

That sounds reasonable to me. If you're a registered user on an under-warranty product, they'll loan you a basic MacBook Air (or mini?) with a credit card number (or even some sort of good faith cash deposit (that you get back, of course, once you return the loaner and get your Mac back).

But, as you say, I guess the hassle/risk they'd run into trying to do such a thing is bigger than I'm assuming. I could see it getting ugly and messy pretty quick if it wasn't handled/ran perfectly. Just the upkeep on those loaners might get into some real work.

[turtle]

Where it would really shine is warranty replacements. Like iPads where you don't get your iPad back. You get a refurb. You have to send them your dead one first though... then they send you a refurb. Why not send me a refurb and I return the dead one in the box. Laptop could be done the same way really. Restore it from the Time Machine back up and there you go.

[PB PM]

The security issues that would arise from using a loaner machine would be troubling for many users. Even if all your files were on an external some stuff gets left in temporary files on the main drive. I guess you could write zeros to the SSD a bunch of times to nuke it, but there is a risk still.

If the Mac’s still had user replaceable drives it would be non issue, you just swap your own drive in and go, but not with modern machines.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by PB PM If the Mac’s still had user replaceable drives it would be non issue, you just swap your own drive in and go, but not with modern machines.

pscates's post from up-thread summarizes the issue nicely, IMHO:

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 And that those poor decisions seemed to always tie to "design" (specifically "how impossibly - and unasked for - thin can we get this?", which seemed headed up/obsessed over by one person over all the others) was jarring. I've always heard - even from those keynote videos from Ive himself - about how "good design" is the blend of form and function. Somewhere along the way, the "function" part seemed to take a backseat. And those products you mentioned should be some evidence of that. No reasonable customer is sweating/squawking over millimeters or grams if it impacts negatively on their day-to-day usage and experience. There is a line, in anything, that is "too far". And I think, on several occasions, they blew right past it at 185mph in some self-imposed race to be The Thinnest & Lightest Everything, Ever™. And most people couldn't have given less of a rip, big picture. If Apple never made any of their current products one bit thinner, or lighter, than they are right this minute, 98% of the Apple-using population wouldn't care. Or wouldn't even know. I'd wager a lung on that. There is nobody on the planet saying "damn, Apple's stuff is just way too bulky and heavy...why can't they ever design some lighter, sleeker products?!" "We made the new Apple Pencil 1mm thin. It doesn't work 42% of the time, but that's the price you pay for good design." - Jony Ive I got fed up with his shit about eight years ago. Bug off already. Go design a $1,875 coffee urn ($700 wheels optional) that doesn't pour smoothly/reliably, and made with minerals from Jupiter and recycled angel harps, if that's what you think the world needs. I've never been happier to see someone depart the company, frankly.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM The security issues that would arise from using a loaner machine would be troubling for many users. Even if all your files were on an external some stuff gets left in temporary files on the main drive. I guess you could write zeros to the SSD a bunch of times to nuke it, but there is a risk still. If the Mac’s still had user replaceable drives it would be non issue, you just swap your own drive in and go, but not with modern machines.

If the store were to hand that device out, that would all be moot. They could simply reset the hardware key before handing out the device. Any data encrypted with the old key would be rendered permanently unreadable.

[kieran]

It's not fun to be without my notebook for a week or so, but I do have my iMac that I can still use and go back to using my iPad Pro when I go to my client next week for a few hours.

There is a huge advantage to being in NYC with Apple Stores. I had 6 options to go to all within at most a 45 min subway ride, and that would men going to Brooklyn. I can walk to 4 Apple stores in under 30 mins.

The crappy thing is that they don't even ask if you have another device. I get that there are security concerns, etc..., but like has been said, I've had this computer for less than a month and paid decent $$ for it. At least have something that can be an option. If I didn't have another computer, I would have just bought another MBP this morning and returned it next week.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by PB PM Not sure what they'd do change the Mini, make it smaller? That's really all that has ever changed with the Mini, other than going from a plastic case to aluminum.

They could make it more capable -- a real "headless iMac", with desktop-class CPUs, discrete GPUs (assuming the iMacs keep those), and lots of ports. I mean that's obviously not really what they ended up doing for the 1st gen, but maybe they could sync them up in subsequent revisions.

Then the rumored Mac Pro Mini could just be that, plus PCIe slots. I dunno. The case for a monster Mac Pro becomes harder if you're doing custom CPUs for just that one product, so maybe Apple will have to expand their "Pro" product line so they can use the parts in more than one product.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by chucker If the store were to hand that device out, that would all be moot. They could simply reset the hardware key before handing out the device. Any data encrypted with the old key would be rendered permanently unreadable.

If someone has physical access to the device nothing is safe.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM If someone has physical access to the device nothing is safe.

Safe from what? With the wrong key, encrypted data is just noise.

[PB PM]

Considering that the T2 has been compromised (problems found last summer), people can generate keys till they get the right one.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by PB PM Considering that the T2 has been compromised (problems found last summer), people can generate keys till they get the right one.

-ish

Sort of,.

Gotta have physical access, and if Apple is releasing loaners to real humans wihtout wiping, then damn the torpedoes!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM Considering that the T2 has been compromised (problems found last summer), people can generate keys till they get the right one.

True. Assuming the key-generation delay is the same as the key attempt delay, all they have to do is wait up to 80ms * 2^256 = 3*10^68 years.

The good news is it’ll only take half as long on average.

[PB PM]

Not practical, no doubt, but doable. If some nefarious person controls a huge botnet for example they could spread the workload to millions of machines. Not something the average person would have to worry about, but if someone was targeting you, that could be an issue.

Originally Posted by kscherer -ish Sort of,. Gotta have physical access, and if Apple is releasing loaners to real humans wihtout wiping, then damn the torpedoes!

It’s well known that even writing multiple zeros to a disc isn’t good enough to prevent data recovery. That is why people who really need data destroyed physically destroy the media, melting, smashing etc required.

[kscherer]

Yeah. We get "destroy it" requests from time to time. Easiest thing: Hit the drive with a hammer, and boy is that satisfying.

Of course, that was before these soldered drives. Hitting them with a hammer destroys the computer, too, so

That said, a 3-pass zero will make the drive unusable for all but the hardiest data retrieval, and a 7-pass puts it out of reach to everyone other than super-specialized equipment. In other words, you gotta have something on there really, really important for anyone—anywhere—to care!

It's time consuming and expensive, so the average Joe has little or nothing to worry about. You ain't got nothing they want.

If you do have something they want, and are worried about them getting it, Apple has made it about as hard as can be on relatively inexpensive, consumer-facing hardware.

A person comes into the shop. They have File-vaulted their Mac. They have forgotten their password. They cannot provide proof of purchase. They. Are. Done. Data is gone; that's it; no recovery services here. And there isn't a specialist anywhere that is in their price range. Seriously, you really have to have something they want.

[PB PM]

Of course. I was only pointing out that security issues in a lending situation exists, nothing more.

I know what it's like to lose data from encryption. Somehow I forgot the password to one of the encrypted disk images on my Mac, I prefer that to file vault since it doesn't slow down the entire machine. It has all my finical records (tax return info) from 10 years ago, and all my post secondary essays. So, as much of a pain as it may be, no big loss.

[709]

Just recently I did a purge of about a dozen external HDs. They were old and far too small to be of any real use to me anymore (120GB - 200GB in size) so instead of wiping them I went through and took them apart for the magnets. Those suckers are strong!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM Not practical, no doubt, but doable. If some nefarious person controls a huge botnet for example they could spread the workload to millions of machines.

Only if you are first able to extract the flash chip at all (there are techniques for this, but you risk bricking the chip in the process). But yes, if so, you can parallelize the work.

Originally Posted by PB PM Not something the average person would have to worry about, but if someone was targeting you, that could be an issue.

I kind of feel like you've moved the goalposts a fair amount away from "hey, why doesn't the Apple Store provide customers with loaners?" (which does annoy me — their support experience could be far better here) to "well, if the customer they've previously loaned something to is being targeted, and the Apple Store has an employee who's in on the conspiracy, and if you can read data of the chip that by the design has no API to read its raw data, then that would be risky".

Originally Posted by PB PM It’s well known that even writing multiple zeros to a disc isn’t good enough to prevent data recovery.

Zero'ing data on an SSD is more likely to needlessly wear its cells than to bring a security benefit.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by chucker I kind of feel like you've moved the goalposts a fair amount away from "hey, why doesn't the Apple Store provide customers with loaners?" (which does annoy me — their support experience could be far better here) to "well, if the customer they've previously loaned something to is being targeted, and the Apple Store has an employee who's in on the conspiracy, and if you can read data of the chip that by the design has no API to read its raw data, then that would be risky".

You'd have to start wondering about the lack of a life a person has if, upon receiving a temp loaner MacBook from the Apple Store, the first and only thing they think to do with it is "let's see if I can dig through this loaner to find some financial data or, better yet, maybe some titty pics, from the previous support case!"

**11 hours later..."dammit, come on!! Nothing?!?"**



Lots of things cross my mind in the course of a day/week. Many of them are beyond stupid, trust me. I even share some of them here from time to time.

I can honestly say the above never has. Or would.

I'm just not that curious, or hard up for something to do.

I suppose those folks are out there. But damn...

Still...Apple should provide loaner Macs, period, for specific situations (brand new, under warranty Macs that, through no fault of the user, have decided to crap out). It isn't like kieran kicked his new laptop into a mud puddle. And they don't know he has another Mac to work on. They should be operating on the assumption that the customer doesn't, IMO. As far as they know, kieran is losing a week of work.

For the $$$ involved, I just find that a bit off-putting and a bit jarring. Car dealerships will throw you the keys to a loaner when they're going to have your under-warranty Jetta or whatever for a day or two...I've seen this with my own eyes. That's a hell of a lot more expense/risk than a $999 loaner Air.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by chucker I kind of feel like you've moved the goalposts a fair amount away from "hey, why doesn't the Apple Store provide customers with loaners?" (which does annoy me — their support experience could be far better here) to "well, if the customer they've previously loaned something to is being targeted, and the Apple Store has an employee who's in on the conspiracy, and if you can read data of the chip that by the design has no API to read its raw data, then that would be risky".

How so? I simply stated there was a risk, and how someone could do it. I never set a goalpost in the first place. I never said, 'some guy in his moms basement could do it in an afternoon', did I?

To the original topic, how could Apple really manage this? They would have to set aside, possibly, hundreds of machines at each store to give people loaners. That's not even remotely practical, that's why nobody in the industry does it, if you don't count business class customers with some makers.

Zero'ing data on an SSD is more likely to needlessly wear its cells than to bring a security benefit.

That depends on what type of flash memory Apple is using. Since they never advertise if they are using MLC (possible given the below average read/write speeds of Apple SSDs), TLC (most likely) or QLC (unlikely), how would we know what kind of impact it would have? Unless you write 20+GB of data a day to the drive, 365 days a year for years on end this is a non-issue for the average user even if you write zeros 3-4 times a year.

[psmith2.0]

Probably isn’t practical but I don’t think hundreds per store would be anywhere the number needed.

It would only be for under warranty Macs that are to be gone from the customer for more than, say, 2-3 days? It wouldn’t be a free-for-all where everyone who came in got one. Nobody’s getting a loaner Mac for an afternoon or one day....that’s barely time to get it set up to your liking, etc. And anyone can go one day or so. And there might even be those who’d decline because they do have another Mac, they don’t want the hassle of setup, etc. I could easily go without for a week or so. As long as I had my iPhone I’d do okay and feel “connected”. I’d probably decline a loaner unless I was looking at a full 7-10 days and I had some pressing work looming. Otherwise, I’d enjoy the downtime and rest my eyes a bit.

Strictly a “your brand new Mac has to go to the shop for a week or more; do you need a loaner?” thing. I’d like to imagine that wasn’t too widespread of a scenario.

Just specific cases like kieran’s, and I wonder how many of those happen in the course of a week? I don’t know.

Good thing he has an iMac.

EDIT: iOS’s auto-correct just kinda has a mind of its own, huh? Good grief, how is it worse now than a decade ago?!

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Probably isn’t practical but I don’t think hundreds per store would be anywhere the number needed.

In a smaller city sure. In a big city store like NY/LA and such that's a different story though. If 1 million people have Macs in a city, even if only 100,000 of them have Applecare, maybe 100 of them could have a problem on a given day (hypothetically). How does Apple decide who gets a loaner and who doesn't?

[psmith2.0]

The way everything else gets decided in a civilized society? By race, boob size and Instagram followers?


I’m KIDDING.

Everybody relax.