Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Supreme Court has voted to overturn abortion rights, draft opinion shows
My heart absolutely breaks to read this. Sure, it's "only" a draft, but it's a damning one. The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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If anyone believes they will stop at limiting the rights of half of the US population and not target historically marginalised groups, you must be having a laugh. Think overturning restrictions against discrimination laws, gay marriage, inter racial marriage, any form of female birth control, so called sodomy acts (which never seemed to be enforced by heterosexual couples doing the same thing), etc. The very notion of a people separate from a state is about to be destroyed... And yes, every single one of these are targets of right-wing social warriors...
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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Geez.
Time to go read up on this. I predict that this topic gets its own thread. ... |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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I do agree that the Roe v Wade discussion should be its own thread.
Personally I'm happy but I'm a Pro-life kinda guy. I'm interested in reading the opinion too, but at 98 pages I'm not ready to pause and see why the justices feel the way. Based on what I have heard though, as our laws are written, it shouldn't have been passed in the beginning. This means the justices are doing their job and people need to have the laws changed if they want a federal mandate. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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Restrict education and rev up those baby factories – the machine can't grind without new meat.
And everything Bobsky said. This is ultimately about privacy, and it's galling that Justice Asterisk, Justice Rapey McBeerface and Justice Handmaid's Tale are even on the bench. Alito and Thomas are just plain shitty people, no getting around that. This minority rule fascist shit has to go. So it goes. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Congress needs to grow the bench to 13, there is precedent for it.
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Selfish Heathen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
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Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the women and I did not speak out— Because I was not a woman. Then they came for the LGBTQs, and I did not speak out— Because I was not LGBTQ. … The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Here is the specific link to the leaked draft opinion.
I've downloaded a copy of it myself so I can read it later. I'm actually very interested in the logic behind the general logic behind overturning the RvW ruling. Quote:
The over turning of RvW won't make abortions illegal, just allow the state to enact their own laws. Personally I'm all for that. State level laws are better than federal laws. We don't need the United State of America, we are States and independent for a reason. Edit: another juicy bit here (emphasis mine): Quote:
Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. Last edited by turtle : 2022-05-03 at 09:45. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Side note: court packing is not the proper solution, enacting laws in favor of your views is. The court will side with the law as it is written. That is their job, not to write the laws.
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Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. Last edited by turtle : 2022-05-03 at 09:58. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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But Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Coney Barrett all assured during their confirmation hearings that Roe v. Wade was settled law. Did they all lie?
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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No, it was settled at this time of their confirmations, was it not?
Lets look at it. Confirmation for recent justices (per Wikipedia): Code:
2017 Neil Gorsuch 20[42]
2018 Brett Kavanaugh 32+[A][43]
2020 Amy Coney Barrett 20[44] Dobbs v Jackson timeline:Quote:
Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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Oh, phew. I was afraid they may have misrepresented themselves in front of Congress and the American people. Carry on.
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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The conservative justices have been gunning for this from the freaking start since 2016.
They took up two identical laws in hope something would change in their favor. They took up the TX law in 2017 was it, struck down. LA passes the exact same law, let's try again in 2018. Nope still struck down. Ok 2021, Roberts is not a factor since we got Barrett rammed through, sweet Roe finally killed. Oh and states can now setup and pass laws that are structured in a way that can't be challenged through the courts since the enforcement mechanism are civilians. They lied during their confirmation hearing because how many god damn abortion cases did they need to hear in a span of 4 years that aimed at the same goal. But nothing will be done. Congress won't hold them accountable. Collins will just issue stern words, but take no action. The system is broken and everyone is fine with it because their goals are met. Also I believe I saw in this draft that Alito compared this to Brown vs Edu how it overturned Plessy because it brought much harm to African Americans. Saying Roe brought harm to African Americans because a great number of abortions are from the African American community. WTF kind of fucking reasoning is that? THEY FREAKING CHOSE TO GET ABORTIONS! This wasn't a government system meant to control the population of blacks and forced them to get abortions. giggity |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Again, emphasis mine.
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Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. Last edited by turtle : 2022-05-03 at 12:19. |
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m didn’t mean to say the justices were gunning to ban abortions. They were just gunning to overturn Roe and Casey. They have written opinion pieces about it. It was well known they thought Roe and Casey were wrongly decided.
It wasn’t until 2016 that they had any chance of actually doing it. They tried with the TX law, failed. They tried with the LA law which was an exact copy of the TX law, still failed. All due to Roberts. Now they got their silver bullet with Barrett and tried again and will likely succeed here. Despite Kavenaugh and Barrett’s known views on Roe and Casey, they stated they considered it settled law. They lied. giggity |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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So you are their (Kavenaugh and Barrett) judge and know their thoughts and motives? If you read anything about the way they operate then you would know they were not lying when they felt it was settled law.
At the time of questioning it was settled law. As I said/implied before, it doesn't mean they wouldn't hear a new case with valid arguments. The doesn't mean they lied. As far as justices go, their personal views/preferences and opinions do not matter: Quote:
Why is this a bad thing? Is it because you disagree with the law therefore all states must agree with your way of thinking? The individuality of statehood is a foundation of our country. The place of laws such as this should be in the hands of individual states. On top of that, something like 90%* of the states had made abortions illegal prior to RvW going through. * Read the opinion and do the math yourself Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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In order to overturn precedence you need to prove there was irreparable harm done. All these laws that they have heard have done is set new restrictions with no irreparable harm proven.
So despite they may think Roe and Casey was wrong, they were settled law and precedent. There was no case in overturning it. I haven’t gone through the full opinion myself either( I haven’t gotten my views on blogs). But what I have read it’s them acting on their own beliefs that Roe and Casey were wrongly decided. Alito’s form of “harm” in how a great number of abortions are from the black community is complete BS. It’s filled with personal views than establishing the case of overturning precedence. That’s why Roberts voted down the last two attempts. He doesn’t agree with roe and Casey either, but none of these cases proved any level of harm that it would take to overturn Roe and Casey. Roberts is rumored to be against this case being used to overturn Roe. His questioning in this case was more along the lines of if 15 weeks is reasonable than seeking out an outright overturn of Roe. He was trying to establish a new line vs the current line of viability. But he places great standard on precedence and what it takes to overturn it. I respect Roberts in that sense. giggity |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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It is interesting that you mention precedent. That is starting to be addressed on page 35 where I'm reading now:
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Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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Like I stated, harm needs to be proven. Brown proved that separate but equal wasn’t the case. Hence why it was overturned.
Where was the harm in this case that hasn’t been argued before? Despite what they may personally feel in that Roe was wrongly decided, there is a standard to meet when it comes to overturning precedent. All I am reading so far is them crying over how Roe was wrong. giggity |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Off the cuff harm was RvW removed the power from the people. You want to give away your rights you can go ahead and do that, but that is not the foundation of this country. If you go on the read the opinion, it goes more into that too. Again, think state level authority in this case more so than individual authority.
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Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. Last edited by turtle : 2022-05-03 at 13:38. |
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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“Off the cuff” is not proven harm. Needs to be proven than your view that this is a state level issue that people should be able to vote on.
What you keep on posting is their belief that Roe was wrongly decided. But since it and Casey has set precedence, there is a high standard on what it will take to overturn. I’ve read so far nothing that establishes what it takes to overturn precedence. Each case in 2017 and 2018 further should have cemented Roe and Casey raising the bar further for this case the standard needed to overturn. giggity |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Eh... read the draft opinion.
Clearly I'm not going to change your mind and I'm ok with that. I'm still reading this thing (while doing my day job) so it is taking a while. Everything I've read so far though, stands by the law as I understand it. That is a guy who's gone to traffic court a handful of times (as the defendant), observed court twice and almost made the jury once. Clearly I'm a legal expert. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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States don’t have rights… the bill of rights devolves regulation of individual rights to states when they aren’t protected, but again states don’t have rights. State governments cannot impede on the rights of individuals — we’ve defined what rights these are through a long, labourious and contentious arc. These have included privacy of person. This ruling erases that concept.
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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BTW, In doing a quick search on the concept that harm must have been proven before something can be overruled is not in your favor specifically. See R45319.
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Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Interesting:
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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There’s no right to regulate another persons behaviour. That is an act of civilisation against the natural state. It is repressive of that state, and there are consequences for that repression. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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This is part pro-choice people are most displeased with:
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Reading the opinion so far it is clear the original RvW decision was a bad one and shouldn't have been made. To then affirm it with Casey was a continued overstep given the already faulty groundwork it used. Heck, I've still got another 30+ pages to read... never mind if I dig into the footnotes. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Yeah, I think abortions are killing humans and is wrong. More than that though, we have more freedom as people and voters now. You can all go out there and vote however you want! Persuade the masses to your way of thinking and you just might get your way! The federal government shouldn't be involved with our lives. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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meh
Join Date: May 2004
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The difference is I am not here to change your view. You view abortion as wrong and murder? Fine that is your view and don't get an abortion. I do not view it as murder. I do not view it as birth control either. Abortion should be the last resort and the limit of viability ( unless of course it threatens the life of the mother) on it right now are more than reasonable. This issue is not something to put up on a vote for. Why? Because when life begins is matter of opinion and view, not fact. The choice of how you view abortion should be left to the individual, not the state. I do not see life beginning at conception. It's fine if you disagree with me. It's wrong for you to impose your view on me. I see this as we are losing our freedom here. The loss of individual choice. giggity |
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