[scratt]

Originally Posted by Quagmire Which is why we need to have it structured just like getting your Private Pilot's license. Where we train and learn what to do in emergency situations and to remain calm.

Exactly.

Although I wouldn't recommend it generally: One of the best things I ever did for me personally was get my bike license, and then get a 900cc monster. Boy, did I learn defensive driving, and how not to panic, quick!

In some ways, just jumping in an all singing all dancing box on wheels straight after passing your test is about the worst thing you can do. I blame the parents today.

But more seriously the way cars are sold like drugs today: As a panacea for all ills. If you watch the ads not only will they give you head while you drive them they'll also sprout wings and fly you out of danger too.

So why bother developing any road craft? Traffic lights, the cops and your SatNav can nanny you all the way home.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by scratt Exactly. Although I wouldn't recommend it generally: One of the best things I ever did for me personally was get my bike license, and then get a 900cc monster. Boy, did I learn defensive driving, and how not to panic, quick! In some ways, just jumping in an all singing all dancing box on wheels straight after passing your test is about the worst thing you can do. I blame the parents today.

The first thing I did with my drivers license was to tow an empty horse trailer down our road and to our house with our Suburban. So while not the best thing to do either, I didn't drive it with traffic.

[PB PM]

I think the real issue is that most people don't get driving instructors, or get poor ones. I had a great driving instructor, so I know what to do in most situations... okay other than the time I guy hit me from behind, while I was waiting to make a left hand turn. I didn't see the guy coming so there was nothing I could do in that case anyway.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by PB PM I think the real issue is that most people don't get driving instructors, or get poor ones. I had a great driving instructor, so I know what to do in most situations... okay other than the time I guy hit me from behind, while I was waiting to make a left hand turn. I didn't see the guy coming so there was nothing I could do in that case anyway.

Driving instructors in the US? Pffft. Yeah we have driving school, but most of the knowledge you learn about driving comes from your parents.

In my state they have a driving school run by the police which was the school I went to.

They had this skid car program as well. It was fun as hell.

http://www.idrivesmart.com/programs_skidcar.cfm

[PB PM]

If parents are the teachers, no wonder the drivers are bad.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by PB PM If parents are the teachers, no wonder the drivers are bad.

Yeah they are pretty much.

All the driving school does is get you familiar with some of the laws( in the classroom portion) and the basics of driving( parallel parking, K-Turn, etc). Learning road etiquette, etc is up to the parents to teach.

[scratt]

Good grief. That is insanely shocking! I really did not know that it was that bad in the US. Wow! Just WOW!

[PB PM]

Yeah, with my driving instructor, we were on the road the entire time, no in class crap. Here there is a driving manual, I studied it, passed my learners permit, then drove with my parents and the instructor for 18 months before I could even drive on my own (those are the rules for a learners permit).

[scratt]

It just occurred to me why this throttle thing is so scary for US drivers.

Not only is there the issue of the generally lower level of driver education, there is also the fact that the majority of them have never learned to drive a manual so they've NEVER experienced a car pulling away crazily from them when they drop a clutch.....

Good grief! It must be terrifying.

All this says to me is you need to learn to drive a manual and you need to get lessons. Period!

[PB PM]

Ugh, no thanks.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by PB PM Ugh, no thanks.

Well, the thing is you may need to drive one if you travel, and it makes you a better driver.
Personally, and it's just my personal belief, while they exist - and long may that be - I think your license should be restricted if you don't know how to drive one. It's administered that way in the UK, last time I checked.

And case in point. *If* you had experience driving one you'd find a car "accelerating out of control" a lot easier to a: understand b: deal with.

The fact is, *if* you've never driven a manual you don't understand how a car works. Which to me seems pretty stupid if you are sitting in one moving along.

You only have to watch an episode of Amazing Race to see how comical it is when US drivers get hire cars in South America and Europe which are manual......

EDIT : Just speaking to my wife about it, and we're talking about memories from 23 years ago.. I still very firmly remember every single emotion and sensation from the first time I stuck a car in first gear and let the clutch go in.. I thought I was on a roller-coaster ride. Same thing the first time I rode a motor-bike. If you've never experienced that out of control feeling, and then mastered it you can't drive IMO. Period.

[PB PM]

I have driven cars with manual transmissions, I just don't like them for normal driving. In all honesty though, I do a lot of shifting, even in my automatic, knowing what gears to use when has saved me from a few rear enders, when traveling behind idiots.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by PB PM I have driven cars with manual transmissions, I just don't like them for normal driving. In all honesty though, I do a lot of shifting, even in my automatic, knowing what gears to use when has saved me from a few rear enders, when traveling behind idiots.

Well there you are.. You've mastered what clutch and gears are about. That's all I mean. After that it's up to you.

I considered a trip-tronic this year... That's about the only compromise I'd make. And before I'd even go to the next stage and buy one I'd want a full hour long test drive so I can convince myself I am actually in control. I don't consider I need to use manual every day to keep myself current, but what I don't want to lose is the ability to control exactly how the car accelerates, when it accelerates, to use engine braking, and to manage my own fuel economy vs performance and so on.

But honestly.. Any trip-tronic gear box or flappy paddle affair would have to be up to the standard of a Porsche's gear box for me to really consider it.

[PB PM]

Yeah, I would love the control of a standard, and I almost bought a manual trany 04 Civic, might have been a better choice for fuel economy, but at the time I had never driven a standard, and didn't want to learn at that point.

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by scratt There was a guy in Oz that got stuck in his car on a highway, and it was reported that he couldn't "disengage cruise control". I don't even know the make of car....

Ford Explorer

linky

In the end they had to do a "controlled crash" to stop him.

Apparently it involved applying the handbrake and footbreak together as hard as he could. How it took him half an hour to try that I couldn't say.

The news program showed him being taken away on a stretcher in an area which could only be described as the boonies,

Not sure that sufficiently emphasises the thorough disdain most people have for that particular location....

Even SUVs are not that hard to stop... Just drive into a muddy field....

Unfortunately we have a shortage of muddy fields around here...

Originally Posted by scratt EDIT : Just speaking to my wife about it, and we're talking about memories from 23 years ago.. I still very firmly remember every single emotion and sensation from the first time I stuck a car in first gear and let the clutch go in.. I thought I was on a roller-coaster ride. Same thing the first time I rode a motor-bike. If you've never experienced that out of control feeling, and then mastered it you can't drive IMO. Period.

Are we talking about a metre here? I don't really recall having any terrifying experiences of the car lurching forward out of control when I was learning. Could be that I learnt the clutch in a 1997 car (a 626).

I definitely agree that it makes you a better driver though. I wouldn't be opposed to tougher license testing including a test on "what to do if something goes wrong". We didn't really have that when I went for my license. Retesting would be good too

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by joveblue Ford Explorer linky Apparently it involved applying the handbrake and footbreak together as hard as he could. How it took him half an hour* to try that I couldn't say. Not sure that sufficiently emphasises the thorough disdain most people have for that particular location.... Unfortunately we have a shortage of muddy fields around here... Are we talking about a metre here? I don't really recall having any terrifying experiences of the car lurching forward out of control when I was learning. Could be that I learnt the clutch in a 1997 car (a 626). I definitely agree that it makes you a better driver though. I wouldn't be opposed to tougher license testing including a test on "what to do if something goes wrong". We didn't really have that when I went for my license. Retesting would be good too

*EDIT: I just noticed the article I link to says both "just over half an hour" and "fifty minutes" as the time frame Based on my recollection of how far he got though, I'd guess it was closer to 5030 minutes.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by joveblue Ford Explorer linky Apparently it involved applying the handbrake and footbreak together as hard as he could. How it took him half an hour to try that I couldn't say.

Well, exactly.

Originally Posted by joveblue Unfortunately we have a shortage of muddy fields around here...

True. Well he could have aimed at a Kangaroo or something.

Originally Posted by joveblue Are we talking about a metre here? I don't really recall having any terrifying experiences of the car lurching forward out of control when I was learning. Could be that I learnt the clutch in a 1997 car (a 626). I definitely agree that it makes you a better driver though. I wouldn't be opposed to tougher license testing including a test on "what to do if something goes wrong". We didn't really have that when I went for my license. Retesting would be good too

Yeah.. Basically the feeling of the car having a life of it's own for a short distance, until you grasp the idea of what the clutch does. It a feeling I don't think you forget.. But perhaps it's just the people I know!

Most people hit the brake and the car bucks until it stalls, or the instructor takes over.
But glad we both agree that it gives you a better grounding in what cars are, and how they behave.
And puts you in a position to drive anything, rather than just automatics.

[addison]

Originally Posted by Quagmire Yeah they are pretty much. All the driving school does is get you familiar with some of the laws( in the classroom portion) and the basics of driving( parallel parking, K-Turn, etc). Learning road etiquette, etc is up to the parents to teach.

The bigger problem is the state road test. Here in NJ it is beyond pathetic. You stay on a closed course with no other vehicles on it, the maximum speed is around 10MPH. You have a stop sign, make a few turns, stop the car, parallel park and that's it. Then you are turned loose on the crazy NJ roads!

For those interested in the sudden acceleration issue, this is an article from the current issue of Car and Driver where they test the ability of brakes to overcome the throttle and related issues.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by scratt True. Well he could have aimed at a Kangaroo or something.

The only thing to crash into out there is one of these obscure artworks.

[Quagmire]

OMG I am dying of unintended laughter. So far the Toyota fans I am reading are saying two things.

1) We're blowing it out of proportion.

2) The supplier is an American company. Which obviously is further pushing the perception of Americans can't engineer a quality product/part.

[zippy]

I'm going to turn the world on it's head and use a computer analogy in a car thread:

I look at it like Windows and OS X: Windows (american car companies) have been having security and stability problems for decades. OS X (toyota, honda) has generally been more reliable, more elegant, and less susceptible to malware. Now, anyone who is reasonable would agree that the potential for harm is out there and that OS X is not perfect or forever immune to such issues. But given the track records of the two... I much prefer my odds with OS X.

[Robo]

I still think this thread is premature.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Roboman I still think this thread is premature.

Agreed. One design screwup that has an easy fix and suddenly everyone's up in arms? Unless I've missed them from living under a rock for years, Toyota doesn't exactly have a long list of major malfunctions. Are people just looking for reasons to hate on Toyota or something?

For the record, I haven't ever "taken sides" in the automotive wars. That just seems silly, like arguing and fighting with someone over football teams. I like and dislike cars for their own features and designs, not based on some affinity or disdain for the parent company.

[PB PM]

Sure it is an easy fix, but it is a rather dangerous blunder.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Brad Agreed. One design screwup that has an easy fix and suddenly everyone's up in arms? Unless I've missed them from living under a rock for years, Toyota doesn't exactly have a long list of major malfunctions. Are people just looking for reasons to hate on Toyota or something?

It's not the number of vehicles that were recalled that is making me fuming, it is the fact that Toyota has hid this issue since 2004 at least.

[PB PM]

Maybe, the other issues could have been related to a very small number of poorly manufactured cars and trucks. They still have no recalls on cars made before 2008 models, for a peddle issue.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by PB PM Maybe, the other issues could have been related to a very small number of poorly manufactured cars and trucks. They still have no recalls on cars made before 2008 models, for a peddle issue.

That is why Toyota needs to be throughly investigated about this issue. But, the fact is I have no faith in the investigation going on right now due to some of the congressmen running it were on Toyota's payroll.

Also, I read over at MR that an ex-Toyota lawyer went on Fox and said they were destroying evidence, etc. Now I don't know if that is true. Any ex employee saying something condemning, I always look with skepticism because I figure there is more to the story then what that ex employee is saying and think he is sore over something and wants revenge.

But, Toyota needs to be investigated. If reports of unintended acceleration have gone back to 2004, and yet for some reason those models haven't been recalled as well, the NHTSA needs to investigate that.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Brad Agreed. One design screwup that has an easy fix and suddenly everyone's up in arms? Unless I've missed them from living under a rock for years, Toyota doesn't exactly have a long list of major malfunctions. Are people just looking for reasons to hate on Toyota or something?

Actually, I said this thread was premature because I think this whole thing is just starting to boil over. A lot of the people saying "it's just a recall, so yeah!" might change their minds as the year progresses. Just my opinion, of course

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman Actually, I said this thread was premature because I think this whole thing is just starting to boil over. A lot of the people saying "it's just a recall, so yeah!" might change their minds as the year progresses. Just my opinion, of course

I don't think so. In the long haul, I doubt this will effect Toyota. I bet next year no one will remember it and they will be moving forward again( maybe not intentionally) with Toyota in no time.....

[PB PM]

You mean, like how people should forget all the times GM screwed up?