[Matsu]

What's everyone using?

I'm trying to decide between a single large 27 or 30" display or a single 24" display now and a second one later on.

There's a lot to think about. SRGB vs ARGB, display port 1.1 vs 1.2, LED vs CCFL, calibration. Best brand, best bang for buck, etc

Use would be for photo editing on a Mac mini.

The latest Display Port Monitors support daisy chaining of multiple displays, but I don't believe the current thunderbolt spec does unless you're using a Thunderbolt Display. Displayport 1.2 is coming to thunderbolt later this year though.

Right now there are some very attractive prices on SRGB 27 and 24" models, and a few company that come with excellent calibration right out of the box. ARGB is more challenging, costs more and requires calibration to get proper SRGB and ARGB emulation.

Thoughts?

[Dorian Gray]

As you know, I use a single EIZO ColorEdge CG223W, which is the baby of the ColorEdge family. Great display but only 22 inches, which many people find small these days. Also low res at just 1680 × 1050, and fairly pricey (though nothing like the high-end EIZOs). Otherwise it’s a very impressive display in all relevant regards.

However, wide-gamut displays with hardware calibration have really come down in price recently. A Dell U2413 is around 500 euros here in France. That would be seriously tempting to me today, if I wasn’t happy with my EIZO.

Many people like dual displays, but for photography a single, larger display has the obvious advantage of displaying any single photo larger, whether for editing or just enjoying at maximum size. This to me would trump any benefits of working with two displays (and I do know the benefits, having worked with a dual-display setup for years).

My recommendation would therefore be to spend as much as you can on as good a display as you can find. You can upgrade to two brilliant displays in the future if funds permit, and in the meantime you’re not worrying about poor brightness/colour uniformity or other hassles.

[Matsu]

Dell's displays are really very tempting. There are five models that I'm weighing.

U2412 - 24" 16:10, 1920x1200, sRGB, W-LED $300
U2413 - 24" 16:10, 1920x1200, aRGB, GB-LED* $500
U2713HM - 27" 16:9, 2560x1440, sRGB, W-LED $600-700
U2713H - 27" 16:9, 2560x1440, aRGB, GB-LED* $1000
U3014 - 30" 16:10, 2560x1600, aRGB, GB-LED* $1400

Two things. The sRGB profile of the standard gamut 27" is supposed to be pretty damn near spot on out of the box and that makes it sort of affordable and safe, but it is limited. The new wide gamut GB-LED backlighting is a different design, just appearing now, and so far 3rd party calibrators don't deal so well with these - no software yet. Dell's own driver for the i1 is thus far, Windows only, and that gives me pause... I'm not sure Dell will ever get around to it, will have to wait for a driver for the retail i1pro, so no hardware calibration on mac, for now.

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by Matsu Dell's own driver for the i1 is thus far, Windows only, and that gives me pause... I'm not sure Dell will ever get around to it, will have to wait for a driver for the retail i1pro, so no hardware calibration on mac, for now.

Ah, I knew it only worked with the i1, but I didn’t realise it was Windows-only at the moment. Obviously you’ve done your research. I think we should be asking you the questions.

I wouldn’t spend $1000 on a Dell. You can get NECs and EIZOs in that range, which might trade off a few on-paper specs but win out on overall quality and certainly hardware calibration support.

[Matsu]

It sounds like the GB-LED does something different than what most calibration tools normally understand from a white backlight source, so they think the display is in spec when it isn't. i1 or Dell has written the right controls for the Dell displays, but as of yet, no one else. I'm guessing that's why it only works with the i1. However, what's been written either for or by Dell, or in co-operation with them, is windows only right now.

Disclaimer. I don't understand beans about display calibration technology. All I know is you get the display to match a standard as closely as possible and then you match it to an output profile (printer or whatever) and if you've done it all correctly what you see on screen you will see in your print. Does this work in hardware or software and what's the inter-relation? Honestly don't know, and that too makes me consider the plug and play simplicity of a decent out of box standard gamut calibration. But I'm a curious tinkering sort of guy, and might just obsess about what I'm not seeing, and read about it until I find myself making "upgrades" down the line...

[Matsu]

One more thing. Do folks here ever feel some displays are just too big, even if cost is not a consideration at all. I think for office-y stuff most people are actually more comfortable with something around 22-24" because they tend to lean in and scrutinize what they're doing and their desks are sometimes on the small side. My desk is also a little on the small side, but it's all I could fit in my apartment and leave room for other stuff. It's 48" wide by 24" deep. Just borderline deep enough. Last time I looked at a 30" display, it seemed a lot bigger to me than 27" displays, it's just 3", but it's a lot more surface area, and you sit further back as a result. The extra height is really nice for photo work, but the overall size, the immersion it creates can be both an advantage and a drawback depending on your workspace. Thoughts?

[GSpotter]

I currently have a Dell 2709W (27", 1920x1200pixel) which by now shows sporadic display problems, so I'll probably have to replace it in the near future. As some interesting monitors appeared recently, I hope it will hold on a bit longer until I can decide which new monitor to buy.

There's a very good german monitor test site (prad.de), which I use (together with tftcentral.co.uk etc.) to check out on interesting monitors.
They currently look for readers as testers of a Samsung S27B971D monitor. I applied, so with a bit of luck, I'll own this monitor in the near future (the testers can keep their monitors, but are required to write a real test).

If I don't get chosen as tester, my personal favorite is currently the Dell 2713H. I'm waiting with the purchase as long as my old monitor works, as I wait for a successor of the NEC PA271W with the same panel as the Dell and LED backlight (if such a thing would appear at all and soon enough).

BTW: I just bought a i1Display Pro. Before buying, I asked the x-rite customer support about hardware calibration support for the Dell 2713H. The answer I got translates literally to: "With i1Display Pro and the included i1Profiler Software, a manual Hardware calibration with the Dell U2713H is possible without further ado, also for Mac. With the ADC functionality (automatic monitor control) is also a automatic hardware calibration possible. But I advise you to use the manual calibration as the results are normally more compelling."

[Matsu]

I got to check out the German site. Thanks for the tip.

The first info I found about the Dell 3014 calibration was on Anandtech. They mentioned the issue in their review and then use a different calibration tool to show how they can be fooled. It might be an issue with spetrometers vs colorimeters but too much of that sailed over my head. Have a read of it if you get a chance. Tftcentral also commented that the dell calibration tools were windows only at the moment.

I suppose if you had a windows boot partition on your machine you could run the software in windows, create the profile and then load it into the OSX.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Matsu Dell's displays are really very tempting. There are five models that I'm weighing. U2412 - 24" 16:10, 1920x1200, sRGB, W-LED $300 U2413 - 24" 16:10, 1920x1200, aRGB, GB-LED* $500 U2713HM - 27" 16:9, 2560x1440, sRGB, W-LED $600-700 U2713H - 27" 16:9, 2560x1440, aRGB, GB-LED* $1000 U3014 - 30" 16:10, 2560x1600, aRGB, GB-LED* $1400

There have been lots of deals on 27-inchers lately. Dell had the U2711H for $494 after coupon codes and the U2713HM for $550. Ultimately I decided on the Asus PB278Q, which is always $550.

Pros:
+$550, consistently the cheapest WQHD 27" from a major brand.
+Best matte anti-glare coating I've seen. Minimal sparkles/graininess, zero reflection.
+Very good adjustable RTC.
+WQHD support on HDMI 1.4
+Comes with every type of cable (except mini-DP to DP)

Cons:
-$550 is still significantly more expensive than Korean brands on eBay.
-PWM backlight dimming if you are sensitive to that.
-Really derpy OSD navigation scheme.
-Asus bright/dark pixel policy not as good as Dell's
-Minimal extras, no USB hub.

This is the first monitor I've bought where Windows Cleartype looks better than their standard AA.

[Matsu]

How fast is the PWM backlighting? I am pretty sensitive to that stuff. Looking at my plasma set right now, which is 480hz, but probably a worthless comparison not only because of the different use case - brightness is much higher, constant, and I'm at a far greater distance - but also because its a completely different technology, used for image stability versus brightness control. I bring it up only because I was always sensitive to CRT flicker, especially off axis, and moved to LCD displays as soon as I could only because CRT's hurt my eyes and head. Here's what I remember from those bad old days. 60hz was always bothersome, somewhere between 72-85hz, things were OK when staring directly at the screen - the important part afterall - but if you looked away, you could still see the flicker in your peripheral vision.

If I understand correctly the PWM might be problematic only when very dim, if at all, some good ones are very fast and don't seem to bother reviewers, but I've almost nowhere to try before buying. Most of the shops around here are either budget or high end, they skip the whole middle ground, so even though you can order mid range displays they either have only cheap TN gaming displays, or the sexy EIZO and NEC stuff.

I'm still working like the stone ages here, but at least for black and white it's not too hard to get the print to come out right by compressing the range a bit...

BTW, those are fantastic dell prices, but the Canadian site isn't as good a deal right now.

[Eugene]

PRAD.de says it's 240Hz. I definitely noticed refresh on CRTs at 60Hz~75Hz also. 120cd/m2 is 27/100 on the monitor's brightness scale...I have it set to 55/100 and haven't really experienced any strain.

As for Canadian shops, you don't have NCIX nearby? I'm pretty sure they sell most of these midrange Dell, Asus, Samsung, HP, etc. IPS panels.

[PB PM]

There is at least one NCIX in Ontario, so ordering from them shouldn't a problem. Best part is that they will price match, as long as it is from another reputable dealer (in Canada).

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by PB PM There is at least one NCIX in Ontario, so ordering from them shouldn't a problem. Best part is that they will price match, as long as it is from another reputable dealer (in Canada).

Yeah, NCIX has expanded a lot with several stores in the greater Toronto area. They are much more professional than, say, Canada Computers...

[Matsu]

How did I not know about NCIX? Wow, I haven't actually shopped for a computer in so long, just peripherals, that I didn't even know this place existed. The Tiger Directs and Canada Computers of the world only ever keep the low end displays in store, they sell some mid range and high end stuff, but it's all special order, and I don't really trust them enough, I'd rather deal direct with the manufacturer (Apple, Dell) unless I find a good shop. I'll have to check these guys out, there's a few in the GTA.

[PB PM]

NCIX just opened stores in Ontario last year. It's a Vancouver based company, so thats why you might not know about them. Those of us in Vancouver have had them since the late 1980's.

They are the only computer dealer, other than Apple, that I deal with now. Newegg sometimes has good prices too, but I'd rather deal with a Canadian company with physical stores.

[Eugene]

And Linus is a cool dude, even though he's not even on their payroll anymore. He's been the face of NCIX for around half a decade and I'm sure most of the decision-making on what to (and not to) carry is thanks to him.

[PB PM]

+1 for Linus! Best unboxing videos ever! I think he still does some stuff for NCIX, but I unsubscribed from their channel so I don't know how often.

[Eugene]

He does, he's just not actually a paid employee since he has his own business now.

[GSpotter]

Acer has some new, interesting monitors, based obviously on the same AH-IPS, wide gamut LED panels as e.g. the recent Dell 2x13H series:

The PA249Q gets good reviews from prad.de readers, and the Acers PA279Q was recently introduced...

Also NEC is updating their monitors as well. The PA242W was just announced, so I assume a PA272W is not too far off...

[Matsu]

Things are getting interesting. I went to look up the new models and found reference to a bunch of new dell models on tftcentral. Looks like 31.5" 16:9 4K is set to be the new high end luxury panel, and my guess is also some sort of 34" 21:9 ultra widescreen variant. I'm guessing approximately $3,000 for these new 4K sets (based on a Sharp IGZO panel) by the time they're in the marketplace. Sharp's own model was announced at £4,000 and an Asus version at $3,499. I didn't catch whether they are to include sRGB or aRGB capable backlighting. The panel is a native 10bit design according to Sharp, so there should be enough precision for about 1billion colours.

I wonder when Apple's 4K Cinema Retina Display will debut?

[psmith2.0]

78". Anything less and Apple is circling the drain.

[Matsu]

And at least 8k, let's leapfrog this 4k stuff.

I'm actually surprised by how quickly 1080p successors have come into the pipe. I thought broadcast 1080p would become standard for about 50 years. taking into account storage, transmission and purchase/sale requirements. And, it may still be the case. It's one thing to produce a format for distribution on physical media, it's another to make a compatible infrastructure for mass broadcast. It's a subject for another thread, but "broadcasting" itself may be obsolete by the midway point of this century, everything instead moving ovr to IP based "distribution" protocols rather than what is conventionally understood by transmission.

No matter. As a practical concern, until now, I was pretty comfortable delivering files at 6MP. Small enough to take less space, big enough for a small print, and to look great on screen, and still let folks zoom in for a bit more detail without pixelation. The best screens are only 2-3MP, so easy. 4k bumps those screens to 8MP, so will probably have to start thinking about delivering 12MP output.

[PB PM]

Considering how long it takes modern computer to encode 4k, let alone the horsepower required to record it, I think 4k is a long way off from being a standard format, at least for video/film. I suspect 1080p will be the standard for another 2-4 years, at least in terms of delivery.

[Matsu]

There are a number of 4k sets in the pipe under $5,000. Maybe the manufacturers need something to sell a after the failure of 3-D in the living room.

[Matsu]

And here it is:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/23/d...-32/#continued

Seems like a clean, Mac Pro-friendly, design. A little utilitarian, but handsome. No mention of price yet. I'm not guessing, but $3,500 might be right.

The other model rumored at the same time is U3415w. This might be an ultrawide (21:9) 4K-ish display. Same style as u2913w, just higher resolution, wide, not tall, 3840x1600 or so, sRGB, cheaper... Potentially a good option for someone who might otherwise use dual 22-24" displays? As displays get larger, ultrawides make a good alternative to dual displays. The 2913, was "only 1080 pixels high, not really a great replacement for dual 22-24" models, unless desk space and cable clutter were major concerns.

Here's a visual comparison:

http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x9-vs-29-inch-21x9

But with 1600 pixel height of a 4K class display, and a 34" diagonal, you have both the height and width to replace the functionality of two smaller screens. Also, it's easier to keep this screen at eye level. Positioning taller aspect ratios on a desk is a little more challenging.

EDIT:

Here's a much better comparison, I didn't realize the site had a comparison widget.

http://www.displaywars.com/27-inch-16x9-vs-34-inch-21x9

It makes the point more succinctly. A 34" 21:9 is exactly the same height as a 27" 16:9. Still not as much overall real estate as dual 27s, but a great boost for constrained spaces. In the end single 34" (3840x1600 = 6.14MP) would give up very little pixel count against dual 27"s (2560x1440x2 = 7.37MP). Might be overall mode convenient for menu heavy application as well. Move all the menus to one side and your working document to the other, without any nasty borders in between? Depending on my desk and cost comparison, I would be very tempted by the single ultrawide.