[Quagmire]

I think ai has cooked up some crap about the 2.0 Ghz G4. But, makes sense about the ATI Radeon 9800 coming to powerbooks. Lets speculate about this 2.0 Ghz G4 crap. I will believe it when it is announced. I think G4's are done in powerbooks. But, this french site reports the 12" powerbook G5 prototype gets 55 minutes of battery life with a 1.4 Ghz G5.

http://croquer.free.fr/

[Mac+]

Undertaker - you're quite the news hound!

Good on you - we could do with some speculative threads!

[chipz]

I can't imagine how Apple will stuff a G5 chip in a power book with the present design. The G5 chip puts out a lot of heat and that is not conducive to using a laptop/notebook on your lap. If they install a liquid cooling system, it might help but the size of the laptop growns The G5 is also a power hog as are all the chips Apple uses in their laptops. What Apple and IBM have to come up with is a portable chip much like Intel did with their mobile processors.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by chipz I can't imagine how Apple will stuff a G5 chip in a power book with the present design. The G5 chip puts out a lot of heat and that is not conducive to using a laptop/notebook on your lap. If they install a liquid cooling system, it might help but the size of the laptop growns The G5 is also a power hog as are all the chips Apple uses in their laptops. What Apple and IBM have to come up with is a portable chip much like Intel did with their mobile processors.

IBM has it is called powertune a.k.a mobile G5. It has reported that it will be in the new imac and powerbook G5. If apple can fit the G5 in the 12" powerbook reported in the french site they can do anything. I believe we will feature a new form of battery. Maybe fuel cell batteries.

Here is ais article

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=566

[onlyafterdark]

Wow, 55 minutes. I always thought a G5 would suck the juice out but wholy crap. As for the 2.0, I dont see it happening. I mean how long has motorola been at 1.5? And how long did it take them to get there? I see Apple needing something to fill the space til summer '05 but what that is exactly Im not sure.

[709]

/OT/ Undertaker, what country are you from and/or what is your native language? Just curious.

Carry on. You've been first-posting a lot of juicy nuggets lately.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by 709 /OT/ Undertaker, what country are you from and/or what is your native language? Just curious. Carry on. You've been first-posting a lot of juicy nuggets lately.

The U.S and English. I am trying to learn French.

[Luca]

I don't think the idea of a 2.0 GHz G4 in a PowerBook is crap at all. I don't think the G4 has seen the end of its life - rather, I think it has begun a new life as a low-power, low-heat, mobile processor that has the potential to be every bit as good as the G5.

These days, it seems as though processors have to get hotter and hotter just for a marginal increase in speed. Sure, there used to be 33 MHz processors that generated more heat than a 1 GHz one does today, but if you look at the high end, the fastest processors available today require much more cooling than the ones from five years ago. Graphics cards now have gigantic blower coolers that take up so much room that you lose one of your PCI slots. People resort to water cooling for their systems, which was very uncommon in years past. The G5 seems like it is one of these "new" chips - destined to be hot and require a lot of power.

The future is in lower power chips. The G5 is deeply pipelined and seems to rely a lot more on brute strength rather than high efficiency to get the job done. But that makes it a poor match for portables, which have to squeeze out as much speed as they can from cooler, lower powered components. Motorola is still working on the G4, with the new 7448 revision coming out soon and the new e600 and e700 processors in the works as well. Meanwhile, IBM has developed the G3 a great deal, now with the 750VX. Like the Pentium M, the PPC 750VX has a large amount of fast L2 cache and a super-short pipeline (just four stages), so it's very fast even at just 1.0-1.2 GHz. It supports a fast bus speed and DDR RAM, and it wouldn't be hard for IBM to add AltiVec to it (though AltiVec performance would still lag behind anything Motorola can make).

Basically, I think that just because the G4 is old and the G5 is new, that doesn't necessarily mean that the G4 will go away in favor of the G5 in every case. In reality, the G5 doesn't have a whole lot of advantages over the G4. 64-bit computing isn't even that important (yet), as nothing really takes advantage of it. The G5's floating point performance and memory bus are impressive to say the least, but it's still worse than the G4 in some tasks (like AltiVec), not to mention it requires a lot more power in order to achieve its high speed. Right now, I think the primary advantage of the G5 over the G4 is the fact that it has scaled to a high clock speed and will continue to do so, recent delays notwithstanding. The G4 was stuck at 500 MHz for a long time and then stuck again at 1.25 GHz, so I think everyone's still waiting to see if Moto actually follows through on their plans to improve the G4 and get it scaling up again. If so, and if they can make certain other improvements (ahem, a better memory bus would be nice...), then I don't see what's wrong with keeping the G4 around. Imagine how well a 2.0 GHz G4, with a faster bus speed, full support for DDR RAM, and Motorola's superior AltiVec implementation, would do against a similar 2.0 GHz G5 system.

The point is that Steve Jobs said a while ago that he likes to have options. Apple would certainly love to make G5 PowerBooks with no heat or power issues, but it's not going to happen anytime soon (if ever). But they have a lot of options; specifically, IBM AND Motorola, not just one or the other. If one doesn't follow through, they can go to the other. I do hope IBM can come up with a better version of AltiVec though, because the G5's AltiVec performance is pretty weak. My 1.33 GHz PowerMac G4 beats the tar out of a dual 2.0 G5 in that particular area.

[Quagmire]

I have to apologize. I forgot to mention that the 2.0 Ghz G4 is not from moto or freescale. According to the french site above it is IBM. After reading your post Luca it does make more sense to keep the G4 in the powerbooks right now. But, I still say the G5 will find its way in there in the future. If either IBM or moto/freescale can make a 64 bit G4 in the near future we may never see a G5 in the powerbooks or ibooks. Same thing goes with dual core G4's which moto has announced developing it.

[hmurchison]

I'm sold. I'll take the dual core 2Ghz G4 please

[Luca]

In that case (if that's the case), it won't be a "true" G4 that we're used to. IBM has never made 745x-series G4s, so this rumored 2 GHz IBM G4 would probably be a 750-series CPU with AltiVec added. I did mention the 750VX, which IBM has been working on. I don't remember all the details but I do believe that some form of the 750 should make it to 2 GHz. IBM would have to use their slower AltiVec implementation, but if it were to hit 2 GHz, who cares? It would be better than the current 1.5 GHz high-end anyway, even with slower AltiVec.

[Robo]

Well, Luca, I read that the 2 GHz G4 was described as the "PowerPC G4 extended."

I'm not a processor wiz, so I have no clue what that means. Care to speculate?

[staph]

Originally Posted by Roboman Well, Luca, I read that the 2 GHz G4 was described as the "PowerPC G4 extended." I'm not a processor wiz, so I have no clue what that means. Care to speculate?

Which is funny, because I thought we already had G4e's in the 745X series (they added some pipeline stages, and fixed some issues with the Altivec).

It occurs to me that that "e" could have meant "Book-E compliant", however. I dunno. I'm off to find some caffeine…

[staph]

Originally Posted by Luca …lots of good stuff…

I totally agree. I think there's little argument that clock-for-clock, and discounting the FSB débâcle, the G4 is very competitive with the G5.

Keeping the G4 as the low-power high-performance chip isn't even without precedent amongst modern chips: the Pentium M is much much closer to the Pentium 3 core than to the Pentium 4, or, God help us, the Prescott.

[Barto]

To be fair the P6 core was resurrected because Prescott is impractically hot - there was/is no fundamental problems with the P6 core itself. The G4 not only had a terrible front side bus (fixable), but scaled terribly. From 1999 to 2004 (5 years), it has gone from 500MHz to 1500MHz. In the same time, the K7 Athlon went from 600MHz to 2.2GHz - without needing a massive revision like the G4 did.

Freescale can only prove that past problems have been fixed with faster G4s, right now there is only potential.

- Barto

[Henriok]

Originally Posted by staph It occurs to me that that "e" could have meant "Book-E compliant", however. I dunno. I'm off to find some caffeine…

No, the "e" probably stands for "enhanced", "evolved", "extended" or something like that. We've previously seen it in 601ev, 603e, 604e, 750CXe.. There's no procesosr officially named 745xe, but it was popular to call what became 7450 the G4e since it was an enhanced design with better AltiVec.

Anyways.. I'd take a 2 GHz G4 type processorn i a Powerbook anyday compared to a 1.4 GHz G5. The G4 would probably draw less power, be cooler and faster. The problem is that there are no 2 GHz G4s but there are plenty of 1.4 GHz G5s.

[Luca]

I think the reason they say "G4 Extended" is because they really have no better idea than us about what's going on. Maybe they looked at some roadmaps or spec sheets from IBM or Motorola, but "G4 Extended" is a nice, vague name that could end up being "true" whether the PowerBook's next chip is a true Moto G4, an IBM 750-series with AltiVec, or a Moto/Freescale e600. As long as it's not a G5, AppleInsider will be "right," because if it's a 32-bit processor with AltiVec, you can bet your ass Apple will be calling it a G4.

Originally Posted by Luca In that case (if that's the case), it won't be a "true" G4 that we're used to. IBM has never made 745x-series G4s, so this rumored 2 GHz IBM G4 would probably be a 750-series CPU with AltiVec added. I did mention the 750VX, which IBM has been working on. I don't remember all the details but I do believe that some form of the 750 should make it to 2 GHz. IBM would have to use their slower AltiVec implementation, but if it were to hit 2 GHz, who cares? It would be better than the current 1.5 GHz high-end anyway, even with slower AltiVec.

They don't have to use the slower Altivec, they can use the same three pipelined current one. The 970 designers used the dual pipeline design due to design constraints and time to market.

[Luca]

Really? I thought it was because IBM only has access to (and the rights to use) the original 7400-series AltiVec. They worked with Moto on that chip so they can use it, but Moto worked on the 7450 on their own, so I thought that's why IBM couldn't use the 7450's better AltiVec implementation.

So how will IBM get to use the better AltiVec implementation on a new chip, assuming the new one is from IBM? Another partnership with Motorola? As I've said before, the G4 is very competitive with the G5 clock-for-clock, but this advantage relies on large amounts of cache and AltiVec.

[Barto]

The G5's AltiVec implementation is similar to the 7400's AltiVec, but not a copy. There's nothing stopping IBM using a better implementation - an implementation just has to be code compatible.

Barto

[colonelforbin]

didn't any of you guys read this part of the french article?

2004-07-27 - PowerBook G5 & iBook G4 Le système refroidissement est très avancé et l'autonomie obtenue est de 105 mins. Le 12 ne dépassera pas la résolution de 1024*768. Une nouvelle batterie sur les iBook leur permet d'atteindre 5h d'autonomie et de tourner à 2GHz avec un G4 IBM.

this basically says: "the cooling system is very advanced, and the battery life is about 105 minutes. The 12" does not exceed a resolution of 1024 x 768 (presumably this is referring to the 12" pb). A new battery in the ibook allows it to run for 5 hours with an IBM-fabricated 2.0 ghz G4."

[DMBand0026]

Originally Posted by colonelforbin this basically says: "the cooling system is very advanced, and the battery life is about 105 minutes. The 12" does not exceed a resolution of 1024 x 768 (presumably this is referring to the 12" pb). A new battery in the ibook allows it to run for 5 hours with an IBM-fabricated 2.0 ghz G4."

Some of us don't speak (or read) French. Heck, some of us don't even speak (or read) our native language.

But, should that be true, the PBs will need new battery tech (fuel cells?) and they will no doubt have a G5 clocked higher than 2.0ghz. Or at least some form of a G5. Because I don't see the G4 getting much faster than 2.0ghz, unless IBM built it

[colonelforbin]

Originally Posted by DMBand0026 Some of us don't speak (or read) French. Heck, some of us don't even speak (or read) our native language. But, should that be true, the PBs will need new battery tech (fuel cells?) and they will no doubt have a G5 clocked higher than 2.0ghz. Or at least some form of a G5. Because I don't see the G4 getting much faster than 2.0ghz, unless IBM built it

sorry about that.

enlighten me on the whole fuel cell thing. i thought that was just a joke when i saw reference to it somewhere else, but it seems to actually be serious?

btw, there's a link at the top that says "translate this page" with babelfish, and that'd at least give you the general idea, although babelfish obviously struggles with tech words.

[oldmacfan]

Parley vous francis... lol

[colonelforbin]

Originally Posted by oldmacfan Parley vous francis... lol

you'd better be mis-spelling that on purpose...

[DMBand0026]

Originally Posted by colonelforbin you'd better be mis-spelling that on purpose...

No, his handle "oldmacfan" is deceptive. He's really a 12 year old slightly retarded French kid who hangs around and posts infrequently. We respond to him mainly to humor him, nice kid too.



Same story with undertaker, cept he's 14, not retarded, and American.



I can't imagine the amount of people I've offended with this post. Oh well...

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by DMBand0026 No, his handle "oldmacfan" is deceptive. He's really a 12 year old slightly retarded French kid who hangs around and posts infrequently. We respond to him mainly to humor him, nice kid too. Same story with undertaker, cept he's 14, not retarded, and American. I can't imagine the amount of people I've offended with this post. Oh well...

There is a complaint in there though. Lets get this topic back on track. Give me those 9800's in the 12" powerbook. Imagine the power in it. Talking realistsicly the 15" and 17" powerbook will have it while the 12" gets dumped with the Nvidia 5200. Maybe the 9700 can get shrunk down soon and go in the 12" powerbook G5.

[windowsblowsass]

this is the same site that said there would be dual 975 3 ghz power macs at wwdc w/ dual layer dvd drives i wouldnt believe this

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by windowsblowsass this is the same site that said there would be dual 975 3 ghz power macs at wwdc w/ dual layer dvd drives i wouldnt believe this

1. We never said there will be dual layer DVDs in the new powermacs. We just said we would like them

2. IBM ran into problems with the 970fx which would of brought us to 3.0 Ghz if IBM didn't run into those problems.

3. Most likely the G4 reaching 2.0 Ghz is IBM's version not moto since moto is stuck on 1.5 Ghz and only increased around 170 Mhz(correct me if I am wrong) in one year(1.33-1.5Ghz).

[oldmacfan]

Originally Posted by colonelforbin you'd better be mis-spelling that on purpose...

I could never write French. My french teacher was the head of the German department at my high school. That was 1985 when I took the class. As for being 12, I do act like I am a 12 year old at the core, only thing is I have 3 cores.