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What's SO bad about ADC?


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What's SO bad about ADC?
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SonOfSylvanus
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Join Date: May 2004
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2004-06-09, 12:34

Seriously.



I really appreciate the effort Apple makes to cut down the number of leads about the place -- it's a legitimate goal IMO. And, dammit, the G5 looks so cool with just wireless peripherals and one ADC lead to the monitor.

Is it Apple's fault that no other companies bought into ADC (i.e. did they not license the technology?), or is it just the case that Apple made a choice to implement new technology (with a number of benefits), but other companies were happy to stay with DVI?

I just see ADC as a less-popular successor to other market-changing/adoption-accelerating moves by Apple, such as scrapping floppy drives, introducing wireless networking, going with SATA etc...

Where is the love? Am I wrong about this?

</Approrpriate clothing>

bouncy bouncy
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alcimedes
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2004-06-09, 13:19

ADC was quite possibly the stupidest thing apple has done in a long time.

as for why, let's look at the plusses and minuses of ADC.

Plus

Less cables/clutter

Minuses

Video cards need ADC connectors. (Used by Apple only. Higher price, less choice)

Laptops can't use your monitors w/o an adaptor.

You can only sell to Mac users. (5% of the market)

You need an adaptor for dual Apple displays.

To me, the minuses outweigh the plusses by a landslide.
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EDS66
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Arlington, VA
 
2004-06-09, 13:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
ADC was quite possibly the stupidest thing apple has done in a long time.

as for why, let's look at the plusses and minuses of ADC.

Plus

Less cables/clutter

Minuses

Video cards need ADC connectors. (Used by Apple only. Higher price, less choice)

Laptops can't use your monitors w/o an adaptor.

You can only sell to Mac users. (5% of the market)

You need an adaptor for dual Apple displays.

To me, the minuses outweigh the plusses by a landslide.
What he said.
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FFL
Fishhead Family Reunited
 
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2004-06-09, 13:43

Don't forget the fact that the tower power supplies draw more juice with ADC since they are powering the display as well as the computer. Definitely another minus.
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Wickers
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2004-06-09, 13:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFL
Don't forget the fact that the tower power supplies draw more juice with ADC since they are powering the display as well as the computer. Definitely another minus.
How so?

The same power will be used, if it is or if is not comming from the computer's PSU.
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Luca
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2004-06-09, 13:54

More minuses:

Power supplies must use unique connectors with extra pins to supply power to the ADC port. These power supplies cannot be cheaply replaced if they die. If Apple doesn't ship the machine with a high-quality, long-lasting power supply, you're screwed.

If the ADC cable fails, you're totally reamed. I have heard a report of some guy whose cable frayed near the display. He couldn't replace it since it's built in, and Apple's repair quote was greater than the price of a new display. With a typical DVI flat panel, you can simply replace the cable. Sure, DVI cables are kind of expensive, but $50 is way better than $500.

Some people contend that interference from the computer's power supply can make its way through the ADC cable and affect image quality. I have not seen this myself so I have no idea if it's true or not. Maybe it's only true of the ADC CRT display that was out a few years ago.

ADC displays can't be turned off. Instead, pressing the power button sets the computer to sleep. If you can't turn off the display, then the life of it is shortened. I guess the only way to turn off the display is to set it to sleep the display after 10 or 15 minutes of inactivity.

One nice thing is that ADC displays provide USB ports. This can fall under the "reduce clutter" category because it's definitely better than having a separate USB hub, but I did want to mention it.
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FFL
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2004-06-09, 13:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by \/\/ickes
How so?

The same power will be used, if it is or if is not comming from the computer's PSU.
Yes, but the extra power demands on the computer's PSU, mean more heat coming from that PSU. So, you have more heat to dissipate than if the PSU was only powering the computer, like it should be.
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Luca
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2004-06-09, 13:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by \/\/ickes
How so?

The same power will be used, if it is or if is not comming from the computer's PSU.
What he's saying is that it puts more of a strain on the power supply, not your home's electrical wiring. Obviously you'll need to draw the power for a monitor whether you connect it to the computer's power supply or not, but you don't necessarily have to devote 130 watts of your power supply to a display.
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FFL
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2004-06-09, 14:02

Yea, What Luca Said.

A more expensive power supply, that works harder and hotter than it has to (thus reducing its service life or MTBF), and also generates more heat for the interior of a machine that already requires 9 fans & liquid cooling.

I hadn't even considered the repair problem with the built-in ADC cable... yikes!
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alcimedes
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2004-06-10, 00:45

in all honesty, if someone can come up with a plus besides reduced clutter, i'd love to hear it.

it's such a stupid step forward (IMO) for so many steps backwards. to this day i don't understand for a second why apple went with an ADC port. 'tards.
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SonOfSylvanus
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2004-06-10, 03:39

Quote:
Minuses

Video cards need ADC connectors. (Used by Apple only. Higher price, less choice)

Laptops can't use your monitors w/o an adaptor.

You can only sell to Mac users. (5% of the market)

You need an adaptor for dual Apple displays.

To me, the minuses outweigh the plusses by a landslide.
alcimedes, won't almost all of your minuses be put right be a re-engineered DVI-ADC adaptor that is smaller and lighter(!) and MUCH cheaper? That's not out of the question is it?
Quote:
If the ADC cable fails, you're totally reamed. I have heard a report of some guy whose cable frayed near the display. He couldn't replace it since it's built in, and Apple's repair quote was greater than the price of a new display.
Luca, if Apple made it that the ADC cord from the display was a discreet component and not actually built-in, is that another problem solved?
Quote:
ADC displays can't be turned off. Instead, pressing the power button sets the computer to sleep.
No way! I never knew that! Heh.
Quote:
If you can't turn off the display, then the life of it is shortened. I guess the only way to turn off the display is to set it to sleep the display after 10 or 15 minutes of inactivity.
D00d, you just said you CAN turn off the display -- by putting the computer to sleep. That covers most instances, no? People rarely switch off their monitor by pressing its power button anyway. Setting the display to sleep after a period of activity is the norm too. Sure, I see that there is a lack of user-choice in exactly controlling the on/off/sleep status of the display, but hell, restricting choice is what Apple does best and this is not too-major a case of them doing so.

Basically, you're saying that the on/off/sleep status of an external display powered by ADC is as dependent on the on/off/sleep status of the computer as a display on a PowerBook? If that is the case, I disagree that ADC ultimately results in the shortening of the life of the display by it having to be on when you would otherwise choose to switch it off independently.
Quote:
Power supplies must use unique connectors with extra pins to supply power to the ADC port. These power supplies cannot be cheaply replaced if they die. If Apple doesn't ship the machine with a high-quality, long-lasting power supply, you're screwed.
That's not a valid complaint. Apple needs to make sure a lot of critical/complex components inside their computers are high quality to avoid the 'being screwed' thing (liquid cooling, anyone?).
Quote:
Yes, but the extra power demands on the computer's PSU, mean more heat coming from that PSU. So, you have more heat to dissipate than if the PSU was only powering the computer, like it should be.
FFL, this seems to be the only immutable problem with ADC. Cable redesign would change everything. Am I right?

bouncy bouncy
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Barto
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2004-06-10, 04:29

If you took the power out of ADC, it is no longer ADC. It's USB and DVI in the same cable, which can be split at the end for compatibility.

ADC is the devil, it screwed me over with my Mac - I couldn't buy a decent yet cheap graphics card and when my Mac basically died I could no longer use the monitor with a PC. I could have spent an additional $320 on an adapter, but then I could have just bought a new flat panel with the money.

Barto

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
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Luca
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2004-06-10, 08:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfSylvanus
alcimedes, won't almost all of your minuses be put right be a re-engineered DVI-ADC adaptor that is smaller and lighter(!) and MUCH cheaper? That's not out of the question is it?

Luca, if Apple made it that the ADC cord from the display was a discreet component and not actually built-in, is that another problem solved?
Many of those problems would be solved by such advances. Given today's technology I am sure a DVI-ADC adapter could be made much smaller and cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfSylvanus
No way! I never knew that! Heh.

D00d, you just said you CAN turn off the display -- by putting the computer to sleep. That covers most instances, no? People rarely switch off their monitor by pressing its power button anyway. Setting the display to sleep after a period of activity is the norm too. Sure, I see that there is a lack of user-choice in exactly controlling the on/off/sleep status of the display, but hell, restricting choice is what Apple does best and this is not too-major a case of them doing so.

Basically, you're saying that the on/off/sleep status of an external display powered by ADC is as dependent on the on/off/sleep status of the computer as a display on a PowerBook? If that is the case, I disagree that ADC ultimately results in the shortening of the life of the display by it having to be on when you would otherwise choose to switch it off independently.
Well, I kind of understand you. Yes, most people will want their display on while using it and off when sleeping the computer, and nothing else. I guess I'm not one of those people. I'll periodically leave my desk during the day, get some food, and so on. I don't want to sleep my computer (in fact I leave it on 24/7) because I run RC5 crunching constantly. So I just put my mouse on its charger and switch off my monitor, and all is well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfSylvanus
That's not a valid complaint. Apple needs to make sure a lot of critical/complex components inside their computers are high quality to avoid the 'being screwed' thing (liquid cooling, anyone?).
Why not? Apple doesn't use proprietary components for other things like hard drives, optical drives, RAM, and so on. I believe the power supply is the only relatively inexpensive component of a PowerMac that can't be replaced, because of ADC. Pre-ADC PowerMacs can have their power supplies replaced.

Anyway I think it is silly for Apple to continue clinging to an old proprietary connector they introduced years ago. Unfortunately they've become entrenched in it, so they have to keep providing ADC on the PowerMacs for a while (so owners of 23" Cinema displays don't get pissed). But perhaps the next display revision will include a DVI cable and an ADC to DVI extractor, so the display can be used on either ADC or DVI ports.
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alcimedes
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2004-06-10, 08:43

Quote:
alcimedes, won't almost all of your minuses be put right be a re-engineered DVI-ADC adaptor that is smaller and lighter(!) and MUCH cheaper? That's not out of the question is it?
sure you could, but then the only benefit to ADC (less clutter) goes right out the window, in which case, what's the point of ADC?

seriously, aside from less clutter, i don't think there's a single advantage to ADC. although less clutter is a worthy goal, how much engineering time, and my money has been wasted on this stupid ass ADC bullcrap?

once you talk about using a converter to make ADC work, you've killed off the less clutter advantage and you're just paying more to get less. it's stupid every which way i've ever been able to see it.
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ThunderPoit
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2004-06-11, 02:01

people rarely just turn the monitor off on their computer? dude, i ALWAYS do that when i get up and walk away, i never turn my computer off/put it to sleep, same goes for half the people i know.
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SonOfSylvanus
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2004-06-11, 06:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderPoit
people rarely just turn the monitor off on their computer? dude, i ALWAYS do that when i get up and walk away, i never turn my computer off/put it to sleep, same goes for half the people i know.
Well its rare for the people I know... You'd never catch anyone switching off the monitor to one of the thousands of desktops at my University when they have finished with it.

Anyway, I just slide my mouse to the top corner of the screen and allow the screensaver to come on when I walk away from my computer.

bouncy bouncy
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Luca
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2004-06-11, 08:27

Screen savers are useless, IMO, except as a security measure. They don't extend the life of your display, CRT or LCD. CRTs used to suffer from burn-in, which is why a screen saver used to be good for them. Now, however, they don't suffer from burn in, and leaving them on with a screen saver still forces the electron gun to fire constantly. On LCDs, the part that wears down is the backlight, so the best thing is to make sure you turn off the backlight whenever it's not in use. On iBooks and PowerBooks, you can do this by just setting the display brightness to zero. On Apple LCDs, though, you have to set the display to sleep, because setting the brightness to zero merely dims it down a lot.
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staph
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2004-06-11, 10:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderPoit
people rarely just turn the monitor off on their computer? dude, i ALWAYS do that when i get up and walk away, i never turn my computer off/put it to sleep, same goes for half the people i know.
why not just set the monitor to turn off after 10 minutes? Will it really make that much difference?
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Cybermonkey
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2004-06-11, 11:14

Just have to point out Luca that i can turn off my formac 17in TFT and it don't put the comp to sleep

I do like ADC as in the clutter scenario, But it is definetly in apple's interest to switch back to DVI, Who knows might just get cheaper graphics cards.
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HOM
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2004-06-11, 11:26

I got a question about ADC. A while ago, maybe when the first ADC monitors were introduced, I read that ADC was just a different version of the DVI standard called DVI+. The DVI+ standard included power and USB into the spec. I've done some Googling, but the only references to DVI+ that I come across are Mac users defending ADC.

Could a member with better Google skills or a better understanding of this shed some light on it for me?


CARTHAGO DELENDA EST

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sCreeD
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2004-06-12, 12:56

Linky

Generally the same layout. DVI has 24 "main" pins versus ADC's 30. What I did not know was that ADC also carried analog signals (the cluster of 4 pins off to the side).

Screed
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Barto
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2004-06-12, 21:47

Yup, ADC is essentially DVI-I + USB + Power.

They needed the analog pins for the 17" Studio CRT of yore.

Barto
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