[Mr. X]

You know, I see so many people who rip AppleWorks constantly. I have been a loyal user for a long time.

I use it for everything: Writing, Database, Schedules, Flyers, Budget, Resumes, Jewel Cases...it continues to be such a huge part of my life. In fact, between AppleWorks, iCal and Address Book, my Mac completely organizes my life. I'd be lost without it.

People say, "Bah, it's so outdated, you're not compatible, you can't do this, this, and that..." Nonsense. It has allowed me to accomplish all of my needs for years and continues to do so.

I am totally unimpressed with Pages. Yawn. Perhaps Apple will one day work to improve and transform it as part of a great new Office Suite. Until then, I'll pass.

So, I'm wondering: Are there any loyal AppleWorks users as hard core as I am?

[Maciej]

I agree, unimpressed with pages, but Keynote is awesome. I think Keynote looks 20x as professional as Power Point. Even my teachers think so, when I give presentations with it they always praise me for how professional it looks. However, I use Word for writing. I'm sorry.

[Frank777]

As one of the most vocal posters on AppleWorks on both forums, I'll have to answer.

All I really wanted, was for Apple to implement the Cocoa text model into AW so that fonts wouldn't look so bad. And maybe spruce up the interface a bit with fancy new icons while they were at it.

That's all.

Instead, I get a brand new Word Processor with yet another file format, and I'll have to use AppleWorks for the next year anyway since there's no spreadsheet till maybe 2006.

Yikes.

[adiliegro]

Why not just break down and get MS Office. It's the best thing Microsoft makes.

[Brad]

I hope you're not serious, adiliegro.

Office may be the best thing Microsoft makes, but what does that really say about it? Better than Internet Explorer, a decrepit application that hasn't seen a real update in over five years? Better than Windows Media Player, an application that is so poorly threaded that a mere touch of the mouse can make it permanently lose a stream? Microsoft would have to try to get Office worse than those two!

Why not buy Office?

It's expensive.
The UI is bloated.
It has no services support.
It's slow and wastes CPU cycles.
It has no drawing tools.
It has no database tools.

Shall I go on?

[p-trick]

and why MS Office, if Open Office is available through X11...

the GUI isn't really great, but it's the best compatibility you'll get and improvements are more probable than in the case of Appleworks.

[n2o2]

You should also try NeoOffice (based on OpenOffice 1.1.3) which doesn't require X11.

[Trumpetman]

I am as hardcore. I had a long thread at that "other" Apple board complaining about how Apple had basically taken something not so great and attempted to make it look great via those templates.

So I went and recreated several of the templates in Appleworks just to show people it was no big deal and that Apple had basically created nothing more than say a Printshop type word processor.

Here are the templates I recreated.

Financial newsletter

Flyer

Flyer 2

brochure

Recreating them helped me learn how to use Pages better, but Pages is still seriously lacking some tools. I don't know if it will ever really be frame based, thought the potential is there.

Yes, I wish Apple had really just updated Appleworks as well. It is a great program and can still do more than Pages.

Nick

[BenRoethig]

Originally Posted by Sh0eWax I agree, unimpressed with pages, but Keynote is awesome..

Pages isn't a bad program. From what I saw of it at my local (local is in three hours away) Apple store, its a very good program. However, one thing it isn't is an Appleworks replacement. The average consumer needs something similar to MS Works, not some word processor/ pagemaker hybrid that's clearly aimed at the creative professional.

[DMBand0026]

I haven't used pages or keynote 2.0 yet, but I will probably continue to use AppleWorks. Granted, it is outdated and really lacks in quite a bit of OS X functionality, but it's still a wonderful app. I have office, but I don't use it. I don't like it and it doesn't like me.

Like I said, AppleWorks isn't perfect, but it's the best out there right now for me.

[holbox]

Originally Posted by Mr. X You know, I see so many people who rip AppleWorks constantly. I have been a loyal user for a long time. I use it for everything: Writing, Database, Schedules, Flyers, Budget, Resumes, Jewel Cases...it continues to be such a huge part of my life. In fact, between AppleWorks, iCal and Address Book, my Mac completely organizes my life. I'd be lost without it. People say, "Bah, it's so outdated, you're not compatible, you can't do this, this, and that..." Nonsense. It has allowed me to accomplish all of my needs for years and continues to do so. I am totally unimpressed with Pages. Yawn. Perhaps Apple will one day work to improve and transform it as part of a great new Office Suite. Until then, I'll pass. So, I'm wondering: Are there any loyal AppleWorks users as hard core as I am?

I agree 110%. Maybe I'm just simple, but Works has everything I need in a word processor. I rushed out and got pages and after fooling with it a while, I doubt I'll ever use it.
Give me a good simple system, a spell check, a chance to look up a word I may want to use, a way to change fonts & sizes of same and an easy way to file it after I'm done and I'm happy. The rest of the stuff is glitter I don't need or want.

[Alcibiades]

I'm not a fan or Word either (I use openoffice for my PC right now) but I also dislike Appleworks a lot, given my experience with it on my girlfriends ibook, and my brothers iMac. However, Mellel looks great to me, and I've been looking at it a lot, and have decided to lay down the extra cash for it when I finally get my mac in August, simply because being a Philosophy major and a Psychology minor entails writing a lot of lengthy papers, and I need a Word processor I'm comfortable with.

http://www.redlers.com/mellel.html

It looks like a nice, stable writing program which is frequently updated by its makers, who take in a lot of feedback from their users. Couple that, with the MacAlly Icekey I'm getting, and I'm actually looking forward to writing papers next year

[Carlos Net]

I for one have never liked AppleWorks. I don't really know why, it just gives me horrible vibes of tackiness, clumsiness and I generally feel uncomfortable using it. Also, using a single program and file format for word-processing, spreadsheets, vector drawing, bitmapping, presentations and databases just feels very, very wrong. I can say wholeheartedly that if I had to choose between AppleWorks and a basic MS Paint-style bitmap editor being available for Mac, I'd go for the latter. Then again, I've always thought Apple should ship one of those as standard. It's the one basic tool I've always thought OS X has been lacking. Not everyone can afford Photoshop, and even if you do have it, if you just want to do some basic simple bitmap editing, you're not necessarily going to want to open up Photoshop to edit an image. Basic, quick'n'dirty image editing is much better executed on Windows than OS X, much as it pains me to say it, and considering what MS Paint is, that is a problem...

But I digress. Pages, I find to be a very nice app, but it's not a word-processor. It's a page-layout app, and a pretty damn nice one at that. That said, I'd still use it over AppleWorks for word-processing. But Microsoft Word wins every time there for me. It's the one thing Microsoft got right, and although it is still Microsoft, and I'm sure I'd prefer an Apple-manufactured word-processor, it's fully-featured and it works. Nothing Apple has made is fully-featured in terms of word-processing in the way Microsoft Word is. If Apple were to make a fully-featured word-processor to the level of Word, then I'm sure I'd use it as often as I possibly could, although compatibility errors would be likely to drag me down. What can you do, really?

And I agree with those who say that iWork is a start, and that's all. Keynote is a brilliant, full-featured app, but Pages could use improvements (the ability to move and delete pages for one - it is a page-layout program after all). And only two programs? That's not a suite. iWork needs, and will, I'm sure, in the future gain, a spreadsheet (Cells), and hopefully a database program (Someone needs to show people that Access isn't a consumer database program, or any type of database program other than a piece of junk for that matter). iWork should and will include these. And possibly - possibly - some sort of graphical program, that is a bitmap and/or vector editor. With those two as well it would fulfil all of AppleWorks' functionality, but I don't know how or if if those two would fit into the suite. They feel more like the sort of utilities that should be included with the OS (well, the bitmap editor at least) than ones that should be in a productivity suite. But it depends.

[ezkcdude]

Well, just to chip in my two cents, as a recent switcher. How can one go about doing LaTex (the best processing system IMO) on a Mac? Is it included as a development utility? Are there any graphical front ends available? I use WinEdt/MikTex on a PC.

[intlplby]

I am probably the only one, but I use InDesign for everything that I need to type up...... I either use textedit or the InDesign storyboard editor for the basic text and then i whip up the layout and design in InDesign. Does everything I need beautifully..... the only MS app I really use is Excel.......

[torifile]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude Well, just to chip in my two cents, as a recent switcher. How can one go about doing LaTex (the best processing system IMO) on a Mac? Is it included as a development utility? Are there any graphical front ends available? I use WinEdt/MikTex on a PC.

A search for "latex os x" on google reveals a bunch of ways to do it. The first one, TexShop looks to be pretty easy.

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by torifile A search for "latex os x" on google reveals a bunch of ways to do it.

Yeah, I think by now we all get it that Google is useful. But, Google doesn't tell me which ones are good or bad, or which ones people have experience with, unless it finds threads on message boards like this one to begin with .

[Mr. X]

Nice replies.

Apple seems so concerned with trying to win over non-AppleWorks users, trying to get them into some kind of office/word processing software. My question is this: What about the die hard AppleWorks users? Don't they care about us? Do they forget that there ARE people out there who happen to love the program and still want updates?

Steve started the introduction to Pages by saying, "AppleWorks is long in the tooth." If this means Pages is the beginning of a full AppleWorks office suite replacement, then I'm going to be very disappointed.

It's certainly nice to see that I'm not the only dedicated Works user on here.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Carlos Net I for one have never liked AppleWorks. I don't really know why, it just gives me horrible vibes of tackiness, clumsiness and I generally feel uncomfortable using it. Also, using a single program and file format for word-processing, spreadsheets, vector drawing, bitmapping, presentations and databases just feels very, very wrong. I can say wholeheartedly that if I had to choose between AppleWorks and a basic MS Paint-style bitmap editor being available for Mac, I'd go for the latter. Then again, I've always thought Apple should ship one of those as standard. It's the one basic tool I've always thought OS X has been lacking. Not everyone can afford Photoshop, and even if you do have it, if you just want to do some basic simple bitmap editing, you're not necessarily going to want to open up Photoshop to edit an image. Basic, quick'n'dirty image editing is much better executed on Windows than OS X, much as it pains me to say it, and considering what MS Paint is, that is a problem...

Apple does include GraphicConverter on their Pro line. Not sure if the iMac/iBook/Mini come with it though.

[p-trick]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude Well, just to chip in my two cents, as a recent switcher. How can one go about doing LaTex (the best processing system IMO) on a Mac? Is it included as a development utility? Are there any graphical front ends available? I use WinEdt/MikTex on a PC.

Here's http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/ a good overview of LaTeX on Mac

I've been using TeXShop for more than a year on a dailly basis and it's perfect.

[Brad]

TeXShop is awesome. I use it daily too without a hitch. I love it!

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Alcibiades http://www.redlers.com/mellel.html It looks like a nice, stable writing program which is frequently updated by its makers, who take in a lot of feedback from their users.

Mellel is a useful app, but it's pretty ugly. The whole metal motif is pointless and not easy on the eyes. I actually hacked at it once to remove the metal.

I'm a much bigger fan of Nisus Writer Express.

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by p-trick Here's http://www.esm.psu.edu/mac-tex/ a good overview of LaTeX on Mac I've been using TeXShop for more than a year on a dailly basis and it's perfect.

Thanks, now that is useful information .

[Alcibiades]

Really? I love the way it looks, and I've heard from many users and reviews that its superior to Nisus in its functionality, I've looked at Nisus, and it currently just lacks some functions I need, page number, bullets etc. Could you tell me why Nisus is a better program? (other than that it looks better?)

[Mr. X]

Well...I've been using Pages quite a bit this weekend. I was typing notes and writing papers, and I was really starting to get disgusted by how horrible the fonts look in AppleWorks on my iBook.

The more I'm using Pages, the more I'm starting to warm up to it. Yes, I would have preferred an AppleWorks update, but Pages is starting to look like a decent word processor, after all. I think it may become my choice for writing. I will still continue to use AppleWorks for my spreadsheets and jewel case template, though.

[Mr. X]

Okay, it's official: I LOVE PAGES! There is not a thing that I used to do in AW's word processing that I can't do in Pages. And, the more I'm learning it, the more I'm LIKING how everything is arranged. I hated it all at first, but I've been married to Works forever (starting with using ClarisWorks on old Macs in my High School writing center), so it took awhile to really open my mind and realize that it's a whole new program that has to be learned.

People are saying it's not really a word processing app, and I think that assumption is dead wrong. When you start learning it, you see it's all there....and it's actually in a more logical place than I initially thought...remember, we're all new to it!

Once drawing, paint, spreadsheet and database is brought into iWork (assuming it will), I will be done with AW.

I'm glad I finally took the time to start learning and working in Pages. I should have known Apple wouldn't let me down! I'm sure many will still disagree, but make sure you REALLY learn and work in it before forming your final opinion. I was VERY wrong.

Now, excuse me, I need to get back to Pages and finish up my homework...

[BlueRabbit]

Yeah...Pages is just organized differently than Appleworks or Word, and it takes a bit of getting used to. However, after you get used to it, it's actually a lot faster and more efficient. In fact, it would be pretty easy to add in drawing & spreadsheet stuff, since it can already draw shapes/make tables. It shouldn't be too hard to expand on that.

[Mr. X]

Originally Posted by BlueRabbit Yeah...Pages is just organized differently than Appleworks or Word, and it takes a bit of getting used to. However, after you get used to it, it's actually a lot faster and more efficient. In fact, it would be pretty easy to add in drawing & spreadsheet stuff, since it can already draw shapes/make tables. It shouldn't be too hard to expand on that.

No doubt. I used Pages constantly all weekend, and I can't believe how much I underestimated it as a word processor. It's outstanding.

My only gripe, so far, is that there is no thesaurus. I'm sure they'll eventually add one, though, in future updates...

[Trumpetman]

Originally Posted by Mr. X Well...I've been using Pages quite a bit this weekend. I was typing notes and writing papers, and I was really starting to get disgusted by how horrible the fonts look in AppleWorks on my iBook. The more I'm using Pages, the more I'm starting to warm up to it. Yes, I would have preferred an AppleWorks update, but Pages is starting to look like a decent word processor, after all. I think it may become my choice for writing. I will still continue to use AppleWorks for my spreadsheets and jewel case template, though.

BTW, I'm glad you are enjoying Pages, however if you want to get rid of the terrible way Appleworks happens to display fonts, you can install something like Silk which will actually enable quartz font rendering for carbon apps.

(off-topic, I thought someone released a freeware version of something similar to silk, but I can't find it and don't remember it)

Anyway, the point is that if you enable quartz font rendering in carbon apps, of which Appleworks happens to be one, it looks quite nice and modern. Why Apple hasn't done it is still a mystery to me. Here's a pic of what the rendering looks like using the brochure from Pages I recreated in Appleworks.



Here's a link to a full screenshot if you would like to see that.

Appleworks with Quartz

I enjoyed learning Pages and it really does have incredibly power text frames/elements. However it really has no draw frames, obviously no database or spreadsheet frames too. Even what you think are draw frames in Pages are in reality very powerful text frames. You can click in them and using the inspector actually control how many columns they have and so forth. Pretty cool. The downside is that since Pages really only has one frame type, it has no good means of managing the different types of frames/tools you should be using. This is why it can be difficult to have the program recognize whether you are selecting say, the textbox, or the text in the textbox, the table cell or the whole table. This part of Pages is a terrible mess. Since there is no guarantee Apple is going to add more frame types, there is pretty much no guarantee they will fix these foundational problems with Pages. The same issues actually exist in Keynote as well, but you don't notice them there because there is pretty much always open space between the various elements. This is not true for wordprocessing and especially documents that mix text, drawings, pictures, tables, and spreadsheets which is what Appleworks is still so awesome at.

Nick

[Hobbes]

Originally Posted by Mr. X No doubt. I used Pages constantly all weekend, and I can't believe how much I underestimated it as a word processor. It's outstanding. My only gripe, so far, is that there is no thesaurus. I'm sure they'll eventually add one, though, in future updates...

'til then, try this.