[Windswept]

I was wondering if anyone actually saw the video clip of this event?

I haven't seen it; but I think the very fact that it's *out* there on the net is a good thing.

For once, this unspeakable outrage called "honor killing" is being viewed by the international community, instead of being carried out 'away' from the world's view.

Maybe the wrath of the world will focus at last a strong, hostile light on this ignorant, primitive, barbaric practice.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...3142288&page=1

Excerpt:

Video clips of the killing posted on the Internet are shaky, grainy and sickeningly barbaric. Shot by cell phone, the camera weaves in and out through a throng of angry, screaming men, bringing the viewer right up close to a brutal and ancient form of retribution: death by stoning. On the ground, in the center of the crowd, lies a lone young woman. Covered in dirt and bleeding heavily from cuts to her face and head, she writhes in pain. Men break free from the mob and rush forward to throw stones or strike out with their feet, kicking savagely. Above the din of roaring voices, are men laughing in the background. The woman's pitiful groans of agony can be clearly heard as she awaits her death. Her name was Doa and she was only 17 years old. She grew up in northern Iraq near Mosul, in the village of Bahzani, and was a member of a religious minority called the Yazidi. Friends say the only thing she did to invite such an outpouring of anger was run off to marry a young Sunni man she had fallen in love with, and convert to Islam. It was this conversion to Islam that sealed Doa's death warrant. Her relatives were so filled with rage they kidnapped her, dragged her back to the village and had her stoned to death to pay for what they viewed as crimes against their religion. Scores of men from Doa's own family and neighborhood gathered in the village square to carry out the honor killing in the full light of day. Hundreds more stood at the back and watched with curiosity. Villagers have justified the killing as little more than an internal matter. "This was simply a tribal and moral incident," Neef Shangari, a village lawyer, told ABC News. "It has nothing to do with religion." An everyday occurrence. [snip... large part of article] To pressure groups trying to stop honor killings, shifting the focus of Doa's death to Sunni retaliation means that most of those responsible for her death may never face justice, which only adds insult to the sight of her lifeless, bloodstained body surrounded by a crowd of joyful men satisfied with their grim work.

I feel sick to my stomach at the thought that this sort of barbarity goes on in many places of our 21st century world.

Oh, and all in the name of...what else... *religion*!!!

*seethe*

[cosus]

21st century is just another century. These people have had their ways for likely thousands of years. While I disapprove of the conduct, you have to think of it from their perspective. I mean to some the death penalty and the right to bear arms are barbaric. In the future jail time and the though of poor is barbaric. To them, it is just what they are brought up with.

[Mugge]

Well, that's hardly an excuse! Not that I think that was your intention cosus.

Words fail me... At least the kind that won't offend someones sensitivities. And yes, this probably happens all the time.

[Windowsrookie]

This is the guy who posted the video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Q32oGCMBSO4

YouTube removved the video, but you can find it here.

[digitalprimate]

Honour killings is one thing were I draw the line at being tolerant and understanding. I refuse to have it debated.

It. Simply. Can. NOT. Be. Allowed.

[Windswept]

The only clip I've seen so far seemed to be a blurry trip past a bunch of shoulders.

If *that's* all they've got, I can't imagine that it would spark the kind of outrage in the international community that might serve to get something done about this legally.

But, at present, I'm on a public computer, and clips that haven't been 'taken down' by youtube, have been filtered out of this machine.

Ah, well.




On a side note, I remember reading about an honor killing incident in the States some years ago - in Michigan, I think it was - where authorities had installed a hidden surveillance camera inside a Muslim guy's house because he was under investigation for some kind of criminal conspiracy, or something.

Iirc, he became outraged at his daughter for bringing shame on his house by *talking to a boy*, and he proceeded to beat her to death, right there in full view of the camera.

The feds got the whole thing on tape.

[alcimedes]

Wait until you start reading about girls who are "honor" killed because they were raped.

Yeah, that's fair.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by alcimedes Wait until you start reading about girls who are "honor" killed because they were raped. Yeah, that's fair.

OH! Well there was that one incident where a male teen fell in love with a young widowed village woman.

For his punishment, his young sister was sentenced to be gang-raped by the village men.

And they carried out the sentence.

I wish I had a link for this, because I know I don't have the facts straight. I think it occurred in the mtns. of Pakistan.

[julesstoop]

I'm crying.
Why does the human race insist on punishing the innocent?

[digitalprimate]

As far as I'm concerned, if people start to do honour killings, they're not ready AND not wanting to play a part in the society. The perpetrator should be prosecuted and the close family deported, as they're often supportive of the executor.

You kill someone because of honour? You're done. Take your bags and leave. You received citizenship? You'll be stripped. Now Go.

[Bryson]

Deported to where, exactly? I see your reasoning, but the methodology is flawed.

[digitalprimate]

Originally Posted by Bryson Deported to where, exactly? I see your reasoning, but the methodology is flawed.

Country of origin. If the children were born here, country of the parent's origin, or grand-parent's. And if need be, instead of deportation, citizenship revoked.
And this is for the family supportive of the crime, remember, not the actual executor. It's part of what makes honour killing so unacceptable.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by julesstoop I'm crying. Why does the human race insist on punishing the innocent?

I'm sorry these stories have affected you so greatly, julesstoop.

Please don't let them get you depressed. Rather, let your sorrow turn into a righteous anger; and maybe if enough of us get angry, something positive will come from these horrible events.

I personally think that only when the *men* of the world get angry about these kinds of things, will something truly significant occur to eradicate such barbarity.

[murbot]

If ever there was a group of people who deserved to be ripped in half by a suicide bomber, it's these fucking assholes.

[digitalprimate]

Naaah that would only suit them - more honour you see.

[ast3r3x]

I'm with cosus, it's horrible and if those people ever plan on entering the US I'll support lifetime imprisonment, but we don't really get to have a say in what their culture is. It's a sovereign nation.

Because the west went through the enlightenment doesn't mean that are values are necessarily right or our relative pacifism and negative outlook on murder is correct. We believe killing is wrong, and in logic and reason, while a large portion of the world doesn't. Sounds silly, but that's the way it is, they don't want to have a reason, they want their traditions, and maybe killing isn't even bad for them, it's a rush, and symbol of power.

Do you really think we should go around the world policing it to our rules? Is allowing stoning of one person any worse than starting a war with another country? When China becomes a hegemony, would you want them to enforce their beliefs on us? (nothing against china, just that they see the most likely candidate to be the next super power)

I think it's wrong, but I also don't think there is much we can do. If we were going to pick our battles to, I'd go with working harder to abolish the caste system in india.

[Dorian Gray]

ast3r3x (and cosus), the idea that we should acquiesce in the face of such repulsive conduct as stoning, or even defend it out of a misguided understanding of cultural tolerance (does the girl being stoned witness much tolerance?), is pretty much discredited nowadays. I wrote a little essay on this a long time ago (before Bernard Williams passed away ) which you can download and read if you're motivated enough to get through my then-turgid writing style. (Alright, so it's still turgid...) Not a single original thought in it, but that's probably a good thing as you'll know it's basically a brief overview of Williams and Nussbaum's arguments.

By the way, in finding the Wikipedia link about Williams I noticed that Nussbaum said Williams was "as close to being a feminist as a powerful man of his generation could be." I just love the pithy little statements these intellectuals come up with!

[Chinney]

Some of these honour killings are happening in western countries. The worldwide estimate, from all countries, is about 5,000 per year, but reliable numbers are very hard to find:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0707/p06s02-woeu.html

This particular killing was caught on camera, but if that number is correct, there are about 13 more of these done every day in the world.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by digitalprimate Country of origin. If the children were born here, country of the parent's origin, or grand-parent's. And if need be, instead of deportation, citizenship revoked.

That's not really a real solution; stateless people are much more problematic than simply incarcerating them. Furthermore, it would run contrary to the belief that people are endowed with unalienable rights (which is why you can never have your US citizenship revoked involuntary). While not all countries recognize the rights, UN Universal declaration of rights does recognize this as well.

I'm okay with putting those in gulags; at least they can do something useful.

That aside, I readed up on Wiki and was intrigued to learn that even though honor killing occurs mainly in Muslim countries, it is not condoned within Islam system. Apparently, this was a holdover from pre-Islamic days.

[digitalprimate]

Originally Posted by Banana ...even though honor killing occurs mainly in Muslim countries, it is not condoned within Islam system. Apparently, this was a holdover from pre-Islamic days.

Doesn't surprise me one bit. Islam is actually a relegion of love and understanding.

Oh and the other thing - change the law to make it revokable involuntarily in case of honour killings. If they don't want to play to the rules of society ("you shall not kill"), then they don't have be part of it at all. I would move heaven an earth to give a clear signal that honor killings will not an can not be tolerated.

[ast3r3x]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray ast3r3x (and cosus), the idea that we should acquiesce in the face of such repulsive conduct as stoning, or even defend it out of a misguided understanding of cultural tolerance (does the girl being stoned witness much tolerance?), is pretty much discredited nowadays. I wrote a little essay on this a long time ago (before Bernard Williams passed away ) which you can download and read if you're motivated enough to get through my then-turgid writing style. (Alright, so it's still turgid...) Not a single original thought in it, but that's probably a good thing as you'll know it's basically a brief overview of Williams and Nussbaum's arguments. By the way, in finding the Wikipedia link about Williams I noticed that Nussbaum said Williams was "as close to being a feminist as a powerful man of his generation could be." I just love the pithy little statements these intellectuals come up with!

Awesome, I'll read your paper tomorrow. I'll also have to see if I can find any Williams books at my library too, I'm always interested in new philosophers, although wiki makes it sound like he leans heavily towards Nietzsche. I am not saying a sovereign nation can do whatever they want, but I think it has to be pretty bad for us to get involved.

My main point is that we can't get involved all the time over things we find objectionable or that doesn't go with our ideals. Is the stoning of a women wrong, objectionable, horrible, and in humane? Absolutely. Is it intervention worthy? I personally do not think so.

[Moogs]

Sorry, you disqualify yourself from the "human being" title when you participate and take joy in something like this. This was not some murderous thief the village caught. This was a defenseless girl who is being stoned for falling in love with someone their parents don't approve of. Murdering someone because they loved someone you don't like... that disqualifies you from the right to life in my book. Round em up and drop the Daisy cutter. The world is better off without this "cultural matter" being passed down to the next generation. Fucking scumbags.

Everyone in that crowd who took part is a fucking barbarian. Literally, figuratively, socially. I don't care what religion they are. Sure our government is barbaric too in their rationalizations and some of their tactics; I admit it. But that doesn't mean we as citizens lose the right to judge these pricks. This is a whole other level of low. This is prehistoric cave-men pounding on each other with sticks and rocks. Welcome to the 21st century already, assholes!

[joveblue]

Windswept, yet another delightful and heart-warming topic of discussion

Digitalprimate: you can't just deport people to the country their parents or grandparents came from if they've never even been to that country. And making them stateless isn't a good solution either. Just stick 'em in the slammer...

[spikeh]

Originally Posted by julesstoop I'm crying. Why does the human race insist on punishing the innocent?

*cough*religion*cough*

Nobody needs any justification to behave in a good way. Religion justifies hatred and judgement. The sooner it's gone, the better.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by spikeh *cough*religion*cough* Nobody needs any justification to behave in a good way. Religion justifies hatred and judgement. The sooner it's gone, the better.

Go away.

[digitalprimate]

Originally Posted by joveblue You can't just deport people to the country their parents or grandparents came from if they've never even been to that country. And making them stateless isn't a good solution either. Just stick 'em in the slammer...

You can't just cheer on your brother/son/nephew/uncle/dad killing your sister/daughter/niece/aunt/mom. If they want to continue to support the uncivilised act of honour killings, then they've lost all rights imo.

(Apart from my blunt reactions, I think a more realistic way to deal with this is to equal honour killings to hate crimes in the judicial system. But for me, that would only be a start. The bystanders would/should receive the same sentence, and not just be treated like passive actors.)

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by spikeh *cough*religion*cough* Nobody needs any justification to behave in a good way. Religion justifies hatred and judgement. The sooner it's gone, the better.

FTW++++ !!!!!

Originally Posted by digitalprimate You can't just cheer on your brother/son/nephew/uncle/dad killing your sister/daughter/niece/aunt/mom. If they want to continue to support the uncivilised act of honour killings, then they've lost all rights imo. (Apart from my blunt reactions, I think a more realistic way to deal with this is to equal honour killings to hate crimes in the judicial system. But for me, that would only be a start. The bystanders would/should receive the same sentence, and not just be treated like passive actors.)

I agree with you, stoning someone to death is cold-blooded, hate-based murder and it should be treated like any other murder. I'm just pointing out that you can't deport someone to somewhere they didn't even come from. That's why we have jails

[AWR]

Speechless and powerless.

[Moogs]

You know I hadn't thought of it that way, but I think jove is right: this is a type of hate crime. Fits all the criteria: victim innocent of wrong-doing, angry mob to diffuse the blame, murder based on a deep seated insecurity and misunderstanding of the other person which leads to the spontaneous hatred and rage.

These people are basically doing the same thing the Klan used to do. Wait for an opportunity to round up the person(s) you fear and hate, gather a mob, build everyone to a frenzy at the place of death and then kill the person, watching all the while.

Vermin.

[Mugge]

They are afraid of girls. Total loosers!

Don't they get that girls are a good thing?