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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-06-29, 11:26

Of course. But where are people gonna go?

As above, if they're working on/getting stuff done on ~2018 Macs there's no way in hell those are, as of summer 2021, simply not cutting it.

They'll come, and they'll be awesome. But I assume there are legit reasons they're not here (and it's not just Apple being saucy and dick-ish about anything). There are likely technical and/or manufacturing reasons, and they can't be wished away.

They'll make up for it all. These things will probably sell like crazy and all will be forgotten.

Here's the other thing: at no point has Apple promised/said anything other than "it's a two-year transition" (said at WWDC 2020). They never gave a time-table for specific models (all this anticipation/expectation is strictly rumor site-based or Jon Prosser Tweets), so, technically, they're not on the hook for much.

The way I see it, people can't legitimately squawk/bitch until June 2022.

At that point, yes...by all means, have at it!

I know they won't go that long, but they could. And nobody can really do anything about it beyond pout/fume.

In other words, no one from Apple has said "wait until you see these new MacBook Pros this summer!" or "we're looking at a mid-July release for all the shit people are waiting on".

I'm not being a fanboy/apologist, I'm just saying there must be legit reasons why nobody's using a redesigned, next-generation MX2 (or whatever it'll be called) 16" MacBook Pro just yet. I'm sure Apple would've unveiled them at WWDC and would love to be taking orders as we speak.

I do think they'll be quite impressive when they arrive.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2021-06-29 at 11:41.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-06-29, 11:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Sure, but the sales volume of the 16-inch (and the mid-range 13-inch) has got to be much higher than that of the Mac mini or Pro.
We sell very few of the M1 13" Pro. Almost no one needs that thing vs. an Air. And those who want "Pro" status want bigger screens and higher specs, almost every time. The 13" Pro needs a major update in order to be relevant (14" and Mx something processor). The 16" and the Mini sell about equally (in our shop at least, since that is the only data I have), with the 16" having slowed to a crawl as in-the-know folks are waiting for the 16" Mx something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I know they won't go that long, but they could. And nobody can really do anything about it beyond pout/fume.
Apple made no promises about time-tables, but people have very little understanding of supply chain issues, nor do first-worlders care about such things. "Gimme my 24-pack of TP, my A/C, and a 700hp sedan, or gimme death!" Ain't no way we're gonna wait patiently.

There is a world-wide shortage of all kinds of things, and being behind is simply the way it is right now. Deal with it.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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chucker
 
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2021-06-29, 14:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
We sell very few of the M1 13" Pro. Almost no one needs that thing vs. an Air.
To be clear, I meant the “real” Pro, not that one.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
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2021-06-29, 14:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
To be clear, I meant the “real” Pro, not that one.
You mean the Intel thing? We've sold 1 since the M1 debuted, and that only because the customer needed to drive 2 displays.
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chucker
 
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2021-06-29, 15:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
You mean the Intel thing? We've sold 1 since the M1 debuted, and that only because the customer needed to drive 2 displays.
Yes, I mean any MacBook Pro above the weird base model. That currently means Intel ones only.

That's why I wrote "the 16-inch (and the mid-range 13-inch)" — I'm explicitly excluding the M1 MacBook Pro, which is basically the Air with a fan and a Touch Bar.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-07-06, 09:51

If this article is true - M2 coming in a redesigned MacBook Air in the first half of 2022, while the M1X powers upcoming high-end MacBook Pros - the naming schemes sure will be a confusing mess.

Fast forward 3-4 years: the M2X is way more powerful/capable than the M5 appearing in the new iPhones, etc. Numbers typically mean things. Higher ones is more gooder. Lower ones, even with suffixes applied, will seem “less than” to buyers who don’t follow/understand the big picture stuff. They’ll just see a lower number on a $1,800+ notebook than what’s on a $999 Air…and their skulls will implode, or they’ll accuse Apple of God-knows-what.

“Greedy Tim Cook selling MacBook Pros for $2,000 when the $1,000 Air is faster. And all the iSheep will fall for it! LOL! There such LOOSERS!!!”, etc.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2021-07-06, 10:38

Fortunately, for those people who will still walk into a showroom, there will be people like me to explain it to them—with honesty—and get them the computer they need.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-07-06, 10:52

Awesome. But you're a sliver of real-world sales practices, I'm betting (knowledgeable, informed staff truly interested in their customer's needs, budget, etc.). You know you're in the minority on that sort of thing. There aren't stores and malls full of helpful, honest Ken. We all know this.

You can't be everywhere, buddy.

I think of all the people walking into showrooms staffed by shady diphits, full-tilt know-nothings and/or commission hounds.

Those still exist too, and so many people still wind up in those crosshairs. They shouldn't, but they do. IMO, in 2021, going into a situation blind and ignorant, is pretty tough to excuse; show a little initiative and concern about where your hard-earned money is going, and do your front-end research before you buy anything (car, computer, golf club, air fryer, strap-on, etc.). There's this thing called "the Internet" that makes doing so pretty easy and convenient.

It's a two-sided thing: blithely ignorant consumers and lousy retailers/sales staff circling like sharks. *chomp*
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chucker
 
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2021-07-06, 11:25

I don't quite buy that they're bothering to do a high-end M1 variant this late.

But if they are, the naming scheme makes sense to me. The M2 is the new generation; the M1X is an offshoot of the old generation.

(People also seem really confused about Intel's "i" naming. "I have an i7; it should be fast". Yes, within that specific generation and power budget. A 2015 28W i7 is faster than a 2015 28W i5. But it may be slower than a 2020 28W i7, or than a 2015 95W i7. It's an "all else being equal, i9 and i7 are the premium, i5 and i3 are the mid range, Pentium and Celeron are low-cost" thing.)

Makes sense to me, but I think Intel is sort of in its own way by adding some aspects that really aren't needed. Why is Xeon a separate line? Why do the Pentium and Celeron brands still exist? Why are there so many variants within? I bet if a Steve Jobs type were at the helm, they'd vastly strip down the product lineup and make it, frankly, better.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-07-06, 11:29

Hopefully by next spring, nearing the end of that promised two-year transition, we'll finally have a clear picture of how they're going to go about this. All the Macs will likely be on Apple Silicon by then, and maybe even some of them on a newer, second-generation version (at which point we'll know how they plan to name/position things, and what types of Macs - and iPads - get what).
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-07-06, 12:22

I still think it will be "Mx" in consumer things, and "MxX" in pro things. Jumping straight to M2 in the Air only makes sense if the next MB Pro gets M2X, etc. (although I still think M1X may be in the next Pro and the next Air upgrade is just a bit further down the road.)

What I cannot see—and what will make the least sense, will be each new thing getting a new number. So, 2020 Air is M1, 2021 MB Pro is M2, 2021 Air is M3, 2022 MB Pro is M4, 2022 Mac Pro is M5, etc. That would be dumb. The naming structure has to reflect the chip generation and it's 2-3 variants (consumer, pro, really pro).

At some point, they'll all be on the same page and it will make sense to us.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)

Last edited by kscherer : 2021-07-06 at 13:05.
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chucker
 
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2021-07-06, 12:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I still think it will be "Mx" in consumer things, and "MxX" in pro things.
Yup
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-07-06, 15:30

I'm calling it what it should be called.

Mister X


...
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
Yesterday, 18:40

Is there a good reason to buy an MBP over an Air? I mean, M1 8x8, 512GB storage, 16GB RAM. What would be the real benefit for other $250 for the Pro over the Air?

Of course, I go to verify the price in the store and it is down right now. I'm pretty sure I recall it being a $250 price difference though.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
Yesterday, 18:45

Here is what the Pro offers:

Better battery life (20 hours vs. 18)
TouchBar
Brighter screen (500 nits vs. 400 nits—whatever a nit is)
A fan

The fan is the only bit that seems important, as it can keep the processor cooler for longer, which is only important for power-hungry workflows. The other three things are negligible.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
Yesterday, 19:02

Yeah, the absence of a fan is the only thing that might keep me from getting an Air. I don't do a lot of heavy lifting, but when I do - Affinity Designer and Sketchup - it might be for a good chunk of the day. I wouldn't want to cook anything, but I also don't know how much cooler/efficient the M1 works vs. the Intel stuff, so maybe those activities aren't as taxing/demanding as 3D or video work.

Those other three things wouldn't cross my mind. Two hours of battery isn't going to make or break anything...it's not like I'm going to be up for 20 hours straight, working unplugged. The TouchBar and brightness, I couldn't care less.

Just for the sake of $$$ and all, I sometimes do think about the Air, knowing it'll be miles above what I'm on now (13" Retina MacBook Pro with 8GB RAM). My gut tells me that I'd be just fine with one. I do like its design/shape (that slim taper, etc) over the MacBook Pro, for sure. But, in all reality, it would spend 95% of its life on this desk, just like this current MacBook Pro is doing. I could have a 3" thick laptop and it probably wouldn't really matter.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Yesterday, 19:04

The M1 chips still get toasty when doing heavy lifting. If you are going to be doing anything CPU/GPU intensive for long periods of time the fan will be beneficial, and likely extend the life of the machine too.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
Yesterday, 19:06

Yeah, I'm just on that cusp of "not as much as I used to, but still more than many" (when it comes to design/graphics-related chores). I spend the bulk of my time drawing floorpans and cutaway/"how stuff works" drawings these days, but it will warm up this current MacBook Pro, so I'm probably better off with a fan. I wish they'd just put one in the damn Air.
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Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
Yesterday, 19:08

I wonder what version of Apple Silicon will implement Thunderbolt 5.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
Yesterday, 20:07

I'm looking to get this for my son as a machine he'll user for YEARS to come. So this makes me think the fan might just be worth it. Then again, I have no idea how far he will actually push a machine. It will be for school work really. I know he'll want to game with it too, but we have a "gaming" computer he can do that one.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PB PM
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Yesterday, 20:35

The M1 isn't a gaming chip, the GPU just isn't there, unless it is 2D sprites.
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kieran
Tweeting @kierankelly
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York City
 
Yesterday, 20:42

I went for the MBP over the Air for both my wife and I and the battery life and fan were both factors for that. (Plus, I just like the shape of the MBP better than the shape of the Air)

We don't do anything too crazy with out computers. Some Lightroom exports and processing are the heaviest things we do on the notebooks, so we don't particularly need the fan, but it's nice to have.

I know the battery life is a smidge better on the MBP as well and there are some days that I'm out and not necessarily near a plug, so it's nice to just not have to worry about it at all.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
Today, 08:35

So I have a new idea...

Buy my wife the new M1 based system and give my son the 2019 MBP TouchBar, i5, 8GB, 512GB. Seems that would be better suited for gaming he might do on it.

What do y'all think about that idea? While he doesn't get all the iOS apps on his system it seems like it would give him a solid system for years to come.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PB PM
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Today, 09:17

Not knowing what GPU that MBP has cannot say. IGP or dedicated? If it’s an Intel IGP, forget it, it’s worse.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
Today, 09:43

I'll check on that. I don't recall the 13" having the dedicated as an option... but I'll check.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
Today, 11:13

10 years ago two hours of battery life would have been a big deal. I mean, 5 hours vs. 7 is huge! But, 18 vs. 20? Not so much.

I've been looking at MacBooks Pro and MacBooks Air for years. They sit on the display table and there they are, doing their thing. Customers look them over, the boss looks them over, the techs look them over. None of us—whereby "none" I mean "zero" as the word is defined—can tell the difference in screen brightness, even when the two are sitting right next to each other. It's pointless—unless you're a professional photographer sitting in a dark room with trained eyes.

The TouchBar has just never been … anything. It seams like it should be, but it's not. It just doesn't work unless the whole keyboard is that. Otherwise, it's … dumb. I hate to watch myself type that—especially since I totally get what Apple was thinking and wish it would have evolved further, but it didn't. At the same time, I think the function keys are tired and old and only used by a smidgen of the population. Most people (I would suspect the number approaches 95% or higher) never touch those keys other than to adjust the volume or brightness. "F1" etc. has little use outside of creative software, which most folks never touch. So, again, the Function row's existence is there to satisfy the minority, even though the TouchBar is a better use of the space for the majority of people.

And that brings us back to the fan. It's the only difference in there that any buyer should consider, and it's the only one I discuss in any detail with a prospective customer. And it's an easy sale toward the Air. The vast, vast majority (99%) of our customers have no need for the fan. They're emailing, Word-ing, listening to music, browsing (social media ), and checking out the 587 blurry pictures they took in the last 30 minutes. In other words, their workflow could be accomplished on a decent used machine for a few hundred bucks. The M1 Air is absolute overkill for what they're doing. But, hey, if they want to unload an extra $300 (we stock the 8-core/7-core; no need to waste $50 bucks on that GPU either) I'll be happy take their wasted money. Whatever.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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chucker
 
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Today, 11:50

Really, the only thing is: do you tax your machine a lot, with sustained workloads? Do you compile, render, etc.? If so, a Pro will kick in the fan to avoid throttling. The Air won't; after a few minutes, it will start throttling slightly.

For most users, it doesn't matter, and the Air will provide a better user experience: no fan, virtually no moving parts. An iPad-like don't worry about it device. But for Pros, the Pro is in fact slightly more fitting.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Today, 11:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
But for Pros, the Pro is in fact slightly more fitting.
Exactly.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
Today, 12:53

So my wife's 2019 MBP is integrated graphics only. Still... I might get her the Air and give her Pro to my son.

I agree on the lack of a need for the fan or anything else at this point. The reality is just not needed for most users in my home. I could benefit from it for what Ido now, but that won't work without M1 running x64 Win10 VMs. So I could get away with the M1 Air.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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