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Koodari
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2004-09-05, 10:42

The problem: move something from current directory to the parent directory in Finder.

On Windows the fastest/easiest way was obvious, I would go ctrl-X (cut) to mark the stuff I want to move, go to parent folder, ctrl-v (paste). If I wanted to drag and drop, that was possible as well, because the directory tree structure was visible on the left, and I could always d & d to the parent.

In OS X Finder there is no "cut". You are supposed to use drag and drop to move. As far as I know, there is no way to accomplish this task by simple drag and drop except by changing into column view, and keystroke to go to parent directory does not work when you are dragging. It's possible to add the dropdown menu into Finder toolbar that lets you go up the directory tree while in normal view, but that is not usable while you drag and drop. You could drag and drop through the whole directory structure via Finder sidebar, but you basically have to remember the path and the process takes time. You can open a new Finder window, but it will open in your home folder, not in the place you are working in, so just like in the Sidebar technique, you have to navigate to the parent folder and you have to remember the path.

I'm thinking, maybe the forward, back, and parent buttons in Finder should be drag and drop reactive. Maybe "New Finder Window" could be configured to open in the current folder. Maybe keyboard navigation shortcuts, and mouse scroll wheel, should work while dragging and dropping.

How do you accomplish this task? What is the fastest way to do it?

Last edited by Koodari : 2004-09-05 at 10:56.
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EmC
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Columbus, Georgia
 
2004-09-05, 11:08

You can open a new finder window with the contents of that folder by command clicking the folder.

Say you have folder called 'Word' in your 'Documents' folder and you want to move all the documents in 'Word' directly into 'Documents.' Goto the 'Documents' folder in the finder and command-click the 'Word' folder. Now both the 'Documents' folder and the 'Word' folder are open.

Is that what you are talking about?

Edit: Just double checked, command-click folders in the side bar. You will need to command-double-click for folders not in the side bar.

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johnq
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-09-05, 12:44

While I understand/appreciate what you want to be able to do, and I agree 100%, surely you aren't suggesting that using Column View is "difficult" or somesuch are you? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding you).

Click file in right column, drag it left "up" to its parent directory, drop. Painfully simple.

That's not to say Apple shouldn't allow for other methods in the other views...but for now, if you need to move something up the tree, just use Column View.

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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Koodari
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2004-09-05, 13:05

I have absolutely no problem with moving the files. I have always drag and dropped through the Sidebar, using the spring loading feature.

However, since the ways to accomplish the task seemed less than direct and obvious, I knew people are bound to do it with diffent ways. I thought up a few, but I was certain I did not think of all of them - EmC came up with a different and very interesting one, for instance. In addition to that, I am interested in what way(s) people have actually come to use.

The column view way is probably the fastest. I just don't like it, and I didn't think of it before writing the initial post in this thread.
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Koodari
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2004-09-05, 13:21

Now that I think about it, the same UI element you see on this forum below the main banner+menu might work well for the Finder.

Check out this screenshot from the Enlightenment WM file manager:
http://www.lynucs.org/index.php?scre...12a&p=scre en

If the path was displayed like that, and the directory "buttons" gave you spring loaded "go to" feature plus normal drag and drop capability, I think that could work well for Finder's normal mode. I think that for the file manager to work well, you have to be able to move up, down and sideways in the folder hierarchy, and do that all with just the mouse. It's all fine and good that there are multiple modes to pick from, but I find all tasks should be relatively easy in every mode. Currently it's not like that. My mom would find it very difficult to move things if the Finder opened in normal mode, she would not think about changing viewing mode.
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johnq
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2004-09-05, 13:25

It is psychologically more comfortable for some people at some times to navigate from top down rather than bottom up, particularly during a drag 'n' drop operation.

I can "get" why you'd prefer (although it's not your ideal way) to go from the sidebar "down" through the tree to your destination as opposed to going back up the tree in reverse.

However in the case of merely dragging up to the parent folder, Column View perhaps will always be the fastest (short of having an actual Cut command).

But yes, it'd be great to start a drag in List or Icon view, press command-up or left and have the Finder window switch to the parent folder and so on, up as many levels as you want. (As well as the various other ways to do this that would be nice to have, such as dragging into nav menus/nav popup menus/nav contextual menus...but those have always been too 3rd party gimmicky for Apple's liking it seems)

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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johnq
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2004-09-05, 13:34

How I typically will manage drags to various folders (assuming I have several open in their own windows, which I do during many workflows), I simply drag the item I'm moving (or copying or aliasing), drag it to the top left corner* of the screen, Exposé is triggered, reducing my 3 or so Finder windows, I hover over the destination, the windows expand again with my chosen folder to the fore, and I drop.

It takes many words to describe what is an utterly simple, graceful, fluid, intuitive action. (I like to call it post-intuitive..see it once, remember it for life.)

Another thing I do is drag my destination folder/s to the sidebar. Drag into them as much as I need to, and then drag the Sidebar alias off (poof) when done.

And sometimes I make a bunch of aliases for destinations and put them on the Desktop or in a folder. Makes dragging to them much easier, and the actual folders stay where they belong.

Many solutions, all of which I use, none are "the" way.

*(Or whatever corner you have "All Applications" set for in Exposé.)

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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Koodari
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2004-09-05, 13:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnq
It is psychologically more comfortable for some people at some times to navigate from top down rather than bottom up, particularly during a drag 'n' drop operation.

I can "get" why you'd prefer (although it's not your ideal way) to go from the sidebar "down" through the tree to your destination as opposed to going back up the tree in reverse.

However in the case of merely dragging up to the parent folder, Column View perhaps will always be the fastest (short of having an actual Cut command).
I would love having a way to go straight back up the tree, to the parent folder, while copying or moving things. That is my ideal.

When I said I have always went through the Sidebar and have used nothing else, it's worth remembering I've only been on OS X for a few months now. That is the technique I have intuitively gravitated to, even if it leaves a lot to desire. It doesn't come naturally to me to open multiple windows, and even if I learn to do things like that, there still is no straightforward way to open the parent folder into a new window.

What I'm opposed to in the "column view technique" is that it requires a change of mode, a very nonobvious thing. It's a known fact that moded UIs are a PITA to learn. I'm not against them as such, I even use vim for text editor, but that is not something that should be required of a user who just wants to mess around with files. The problem here is that the basic mode is lacking power.

The "cut" command, of course, would provide a good alternative for drag and drop. I'm not quite sure why Apple did not enable "cut" in Finder, I'm sure there is an explanation for it though. In 10 years of Windows use, I've never observed any problem or ran into a difficult/illogical situation using "cut".

Last edited by Koodari : 2004-09-05 at 13:50.
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johnq
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-09-05, 14:03

I wouldn't be surprised if Cut makes it to Mac OS X eventually.

We (finally) have "Copy" and "Paste" in the Finder, which was like pulling teeth to get them to do.

Previously, we merely had Duplicate, which doesn't copy the files into the clipboard/memory, it merely copies them where they were sitting.

We now need "Move" and "Cut". Apple needs to swallow that last bitter pill and admit that they are useful commands (if nothing else it adds compatibility with Windows).

Shouldn't be much argument against it from purists if they are open minded...The Finder is an application, it's "documents" are Finder windows/folder interior views and it's "data" are items, such as files and folders and aliases. So with that scheme, it is perfectly natural for the Finder to have Cut, Copy, Paste..."Move" being the unique command, (although text editors and image editors have move commands in some form or other).

What the shortcuts should be is another thing...that would require some juggling...

"Move" should:
1. Select item/s.
2. Select "Move Items"
3. Sheet drops down from current Finder window, with standard Open/Save dialog
4. Navigate to destination
5. Click "Okay" button

If on the desktop, it would be an Open/Save dialog box, not a sheet.

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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curiousuburb
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2004-09-05, 14:43

Maybe I'm missing something (like which OS version you're asking about... Jaguar or Panther),
but the Sidebar is all spring loaded in Panther, regardless of which Finder mode you're in.

Just drag the file you want to move up in the hierarchy over the relevant folder/home/drive in the Finder Sidebar (in any view) and wait for the drive/folder to pop open... once you're in the location you want, let go. If you miss the folder you want or get lost, hit the Esc key (without releasing the mouse button) and the move will be cancelled.

As for remembering the path being too complicated...
just make a folder shortcut for frequently accessed items and add it to the sidebar...
or use the pre-built alias folder "Favorites" of last used locations (which remembers volumes too).
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Koodari
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2004-09-05, 15:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousuburb
Maybe I'm missing something (like which OS version you're asking about... Jaguar or Panther),
but the Sidebar is all spring loaded in Panther, regardless of which Finder mode you're in.

Just drag the file you want to move up in the hierarchy over the relevant folder/home/drive in the Finder Sidebar (in any view) and wait for the drive/folder to pop open... once you're in the location you want, let go. If you miss the folder you want or get lost, hit the Esc key (without releasing the mouse button) and the move will be cancelled.
In my second post in this thread I say this is exactly what I currently do. It's tedious, to the point of breaking the line of thought and the workflow. In Windows you either use the clipboard metaphor to cut-paste (when done from the keyboard, extremely fast and reflexive, about one second overall) or do a "clean" one-step drag and drop - the latter of which is also possible in OS X column view but not the other two. My main gripe is that it should at least be possible in the other Finder views. This could be accomplished with a spring-loaded "parent folder" button, for instance.
Quote:
As for remembering the path being too complicated...
just make a folder shortcut for frequently accessed items and add it to the sidebar...
or use the pre-built alias folder "Favorites" of last used locations (which remembers volumes too).
There is no reason for a simple straightforward action like this ("this goes there") to be complicated enough to the point of setting up folder shortcuts. I select ("this"), drag ("goes"), and drop ("there"). One step of spring loading does not need to engage your mind a lot. Setting up shortcuts certainly will.

There is another thing that I think is tied to this, and would be worth solving at the same time. Finder's normal view offers too little clues as to in which directory you are at the moment. If you are in "(Folder) Temp", is it ~foo/Temp/, ~spouse/Weather/Temp/ or what? I again refer to the Enlightenment screenshot.
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chucker
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2004-09-05, 15:58

If you want a file browser that shows you the path, get Path Finder. The average user won't need such advanced functionality.

For the rare case where you need to know the path of the current folder, click on the "path" toolbar item (duh!), or cmd-click on the proxy icon / window title.
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noleli2
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Chicago
 
2004-09-05, 22:47

I'll agree that there needs to be a better way to handle dragging to a parent directory. If I'm in a folder, and I realize I need to go move a file up a directory, I go up a level (command-clicking the titlebar, command-up arrow, or the toolbar dropdown, whatever's there at the time) and command double-click the original folder to have it open in a new window. This behavior bothers me too, because, at least in list view, if you have a file or folder selected, and you cmd-double-click another folder to open it in a new window, you end up accidentally opening both the folder you intended and the previous selection because of the command-click vs. command-double-click dual usage.

Regarding behavior while in a drag, it would be nice if cmd-up arrow worked, and it also really bothers me that you can't press a letter to jump to a folder alphabetically. This would be especially nice when moving stuff around in a large music library. Getting a window to scroll at a decent speed while dragging is a huge pain, IMO.
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LudwigVan
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Location: Minnesota
 
2004-09-06, 00:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnq
We now need "Move" and "Cut". Apple needs to swallow that last bitter pill and admit that they are useful commands (if nothing else it adds compatibility with Windows).
Wouldn't "Move" and "Cut" be synonymous? Why would both be available in the OS?
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johnq
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-09-06, 00:58

No. "Cut" immediately removes (well, would, if it existed) the items from the Finder, places them in memory/"clipboard". The user then goes to any folders and servers they want to in a Finder window and pastes the items to the new location. The user can also paste as many times as they want, either to multiple locations (making copies) or in the same location (making copies that are renamed to be unique). But the files are basically floating in limbo, invisible to the user.

"Move" leaves (would leave) the files where they are, but lets the user navigate to the destination in a sheet or dialog box, then when satisfied with the location, they click the Okay button (or Move or whatever it should be called), only then are the files removed from A and placed in B. Move doesn't involve the "clipboard" and the files are visible the entire time, disappearing in A and appearing in B.

(I say "clipboard" in quotes because it isn't the same as the clipboard where text/image/sound/etc data is stored. It seems to be a secondary clipboard for Finder items.)

Could we "get by" without either or both? Sure. But the Mac is about options, not "getting by". I'm all for empowering the user so long as the solutions are quick and easy to use.

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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curiousuburb
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2004-09-06, 01:14

That sounds like the differences between "man mv" and "man cp" from terminal.
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Koodari
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2004-09-06, 11:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker
If you want a file browser that shows you the path, get Path Finder. The average user won't need such advanced functionality.

For the rare case where you need to know the path of the current folder, click on the "path" toolbar item (duh!), or cmd-click on the proxy icon / window title.
I took a look at their site, and Path Finder looks great. It indeed shows the path, and their "drop stack" feature is a mouse-operated cut-paste, period. Other than that, it might suffer from feature overload, but it's hard to say without trying it out.

http://www.cocoatech.com/images/demo/dropStack.mov

I contend that it is indeed the *average* user that most needs the so-called "advanced functionality" of effortlessly going back in directory hierarchy, and seeing where he is instead of having to remember it. I do know and I do remember, but I'd like even that bit of my brain to be free to do something else. It's a question of common sense. Finder is lacking basic functionality, while you can do things like dragging files on the toolbar. I don't know what the heck they were thinking.

I know and use the toolbar icon and I know it's possible to cmd-click on the title. If I recall correctly, even the toolbar icon was not there before I customized the toolbar. The existance and function of the cmd-click is not visible in any way. Neither works when you are trying to move or copy something.
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LudwigVan
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2004-09-06, 20:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnq
(Definition of "Cut" and "Move" snipped)
Thanks for spelling that out for me, John. Much appreciated.

Last edited by LudwigVan : 2004-09-06 at 20:12. Reason: Copious misspellings (or is it mispellings?)
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johnq
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2004-09-06, 22:40

No problem. Yeah they are seemingly redundant until you get down to a shameful, geek-level of nitpicking, which is needed if seriously talking UI/GUI stuff.

--

Yeah PathFinder is indispensable. The Mac Finder needn't ever become that but there are a few things I'd like to see Apple steal, um, I mean...

I'm pro level to the extreme and use every 3rd party thing there is out there, but I still find the regular Finder to be adequate, once I stop expecting it to be Mac OS 9 or Windows XP.

I don't use PathFinder exclusively (nor would I use DragThing as replacement for the Dock, etc.). Something in my nature needs to have the stock Apple system ready and waiting next to the 3rd party stuff. Feels wrong to kill, say, Dock or Finder.

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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Koodari
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2004-09-07, 12:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnq
I'm pro level to the extreme and use every 3rd party thing there is out there, but I still find the regular Finder to be adequate, once I stop expecting it to be Mac OS 9 or Windows XP.
Can you sum up what was better in OS 9 Finder? I've never used OS 9 long enough to go beyond basic point and click.
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DMBand0026
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2004-09-07, 12:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnq
I'm pro level to the extreme and use every 3rd party thing there is out there, but I still find the regular Finder to be adequate, once I stop expecting it to be Mac OS 9 or Windows XP.
Ha! You're a pro user and you think the Finder is "adequate"? That's interesting. Because the Finder is so far from adequate. I'd settle for that, but right now it's pretty terrible.

Come waste your time with me
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johnq
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2004-09-07, 14:25

I can find, copy, delete, move, alias, rename, get info, change icon of, label and view my files. That's adequate. Anything beyond that there are a wealth of 3rd party alternatives.

Funny, when Apple rips-off a 3rd party innovation, everyone cries and whines and defends the poor 3rd party developer, yet when Apple -isn't- adding certain key features, everyone whines and groans that they need to "resort" to using "crummy 3rd party add-ons". It's quite sad...

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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johnq
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-09-07, 14:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koodari
Can you sum up what was better in OS 9 Finder? I've never used OS 9 long enough to go beyond basic point and click.
My quote was referring to the current Mac OS X Finder as being adequate. (Mind you, I'm not sure why some are reading "adequate" as some kind of shining praise...it's not ) I mentioned Mac OS 9 (and XP) only because I originally kept expecting certain features that Mac OS 9 and XP have that Mac OS X does not. Once I got used to what Mac OS X has and does not have featurewise, it was easier to use. ...Like I stopped double clicking the title bar expecting it to windowshade for example. Or stopped expecting dragging a file to a Dock icon to spring open the already running application, as it would in XP's taskbar.

Not apologizing at all for Apple that certain things are missing, just saying that knowing what to expect made it less frustrating to use.

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." - Albert Einstein
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