[HOM]

Ug, Looters vs. Borrowers

[InactionMan]

Originally Posted by HOM Ug, Looters vs. Borrowers

That is sickening. Someone needs to get their ass fired over those. Honestly, in this situation people should be getting supplies to survive. (Note, flat screen tv's are not necessary for survival, if you're taking those you are indeed a looter)

I just heard on the news that rescue workers are going door to door and marking any buildings with dead people with a huge red 'X'. There isn't the time or resources to remove the bodies yet. And there have been reports of bodies floating on the flood waters. This is sick.

[Kickaha]

This is regular life, prior to 1800AD or so.

[LudwigVan]

More photos can be found here at the WWLTV.com site. Some are aerial shots from today showing how much the flooding alone has devastated the area. Slide #5, for instance, shows nothing but water, roofs, and oil slicks.

Regarding the looters/borrowers captions, some of the posters there pointed out that 2 different news agencies captioned the photos: AP penned the ones for two African American guys ("looters"), and AFP(?) for the two white people ("finders"). Whether Yahoo, who--though not responsible for the captioning--pulled these photos together for their own news site, is accountable for bias or racism is up for debate.

[Moogs]

Good solution for looters = National Guardsmen with rifles and Zodiac rafts. You loot, you die. This is the picture perfect scenario (and there aren't many) for Martial Law. Seriously.

As for the Super Dome, I would be very worried about communicable disease arising there, and possibly riots. Quite honestly, if I had that choice knowing I decided to leave too late, I'd gather what survival supplies I could (wood, bricks to light a fire on, med kit, couple pots, rice, etc) take it into the attic, wait for the storm to pass, knock a hole in the roof and wait.

At least there you can poop off your roof and boil water, etc. Not that the boiling would clean out the chemicals or *ahem* petroleum, should the water floating in your area have those qualities. I'd be anywhere but the Super Dome, because you *know* the power will be gone for at least a day or two after and more likely at least a week. That would be enough to keep me away by itself.

[Moogs]

"These are not individuals looting," Colonel Ebbert said. "These are large groups of armed individuals." Officials at the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security confirmed that officials in Plaquemines and Jefferson Parishes had tried to call for martial law, which is not authorized by the State Constitution.

Bet that law won't stay on the books for long once this is done. Martial law is a scary thing but it's a lot less scary than having your neighbors stick a shotgun up your nostril as they ransack your store.

[FFL]

There's not 35,000 guardsmen headed in there for no reason...

looters should be shot on sight.

[NosferaDrew]

Originally Posted by Moogs Good solution for looters = National Guardsmen with rifles and Zodiac rafts. You loot, you die.

I'm totally down with that.

Pussies taking advantage of a horrible situation need not exist.
This is the time to come together.

Northridge earthquake in '94 taught me that good people come together.
Assholes take advantage.

[psmith2.0]

I can't believe how bad this is. I had dinner with my Dad, stepmom and their friends this evening and we had the TV on and we were stunned at how bad - both from a disaster standpoint AND the looting/thug standpoint.

That place is deteriorating so badly. I'd be terrified to be there. No only worried about the rising waters and all, but what if I've got some fresh water and supplies stored? I've got to worry that a mob of people won't come across me and do whatever they "deem necessary" to take it from me?

This truly is hell.

And I think that little "pulling together, friendly community" at the Superdome is going to hell REALLY quick. Can you imagine what that must be like? No flushing toilets, no showers, no A/C...do the math.



It seems to get worse everytime I turn on the news.

Had those two levees held, this would've merely been a bad - but manageable - situation. A little bit of flooding in isolated areas, some structural damage from the hurricane winds.

But now? You don't ever get your house back the way it was when it's going to be sitting submerged for weeks.

It's truly heartbreaking, on that level. On the other, it's truly maddening.

As for the looting, I'm so torn on that. My first instinct, definitely, is to go with the "shot on sight" thing. Then I think "well, if I was down there, and this has all gone this badly and I haven't had water for 24 hours...".

Do I risk dying of thirst or getting a bullet?

But the footage I kept seeing that angered me were folks just nonchalantly strolling through an abandoned store, mugging for the camera, filling up carts with stuff that WASN'T "survival" oriented. It was like "I'm gettin' my Christmas shopping done early!"



There needs to be some massive airdrops of supplies. But then, you realize what that'll result in, right? Only the strongest, best armed will get stuff, hoarding it and effectively giving a huge "F.O." to those around them.

This truly is hell on earth, in every way. Can't go anywhere, can't get anything, fearing for your life and safety from nature AND now from your fellow citizens, etc.



After seeing the footage I saw tonight, I can't imagine that city ever being the way it was. It'll take decades.

[Franz Josef]

Originally Posted by HOM Ug, Looters vs. Borrowers

Here are the Yahoo pics from Dvorak's blog (ugh)
http://dvorak.org/blog/images/katrina/

[autodata]

Originally Posted by Franz Josef Here are the Yahoo pics from Dvorak's blog (ugh) http://dvorak.org/blog/images/katrina/

All of the images with "looters" in the caption are from AP and the image with "finding" is from AFP. Therefore, taking it as racism is quite a stretch unless you show that one of the organizations has different labels for blacks and whites.

Personally, I attribute the unsubstantiated overreaction to the guilt some people must feel because they noticed that almost all of the looters are black residents of the deeply impoverished and violent black new orleans neighborhoods (which, from what I've seen, also appear to be the hardest hit)

[psmith2.0]

Here's where I start to have a bit of a problem.

That first guy...is beer a necessary "survival" staple (murbot need not answer)? At a time like this, when you most need to keep your wits about you and think clearly about things...is getting drunk going to help you? I would want to be clear and sober so I don't do something stupid or dangerous. Besides that simple, logical notion doesn't alcohol dehydrate you? It's not something you'd really want/need for true thirst and health. I mean, if you're going to do this, then get stuff that's actually going to HELP you and keep you alive.



Secondly, everyone is in the same boat (no pun). But there are hundreds and thousands of people not doing this.

The Red Cross, starting today, will be preparing and delivering over half a million meals. And I'm sure other agencies and companies will too. Does everyone just run out and do this?

Which leads me to this:

The folks I saw last night on ALL the networks...they weren't in a grocery store getting jugs of water and bags of potato chips so THEY COULD LIVE. They were filling up carts with CDs, electronics, toys, stereo systems, etc.



1. THAT'S not "survival" gear
2. Even if the intent is to "trade or sell it for survival essentials" (as some here are bound to say), tell me WTF a TV or that kind of stuff is going to be good for to anyone? There's no power, and everything's under water.

You can't equate a pack of video games and high-end electronics with "jugs of water and pretzels for my children".

This is way beyond - well, actually it's not - what the worst-case predictinons were. And for people that did prepare and lost it all, I truly feel for them. You've got kids sitting on a roof and they've not eaten in two days...my heart aches, and I'm hoping helicopters swoop in all day and take every one of them to dry land and a hot meal.

But if you're ransacking a Wal-Mart or electronics store in this time of danger and despair, you're a a-hole. And if you consider two cases of beer "survival essentials" (again, no comments from murbot ), then you're probably beyond helping to begin with.

This would be the time for major corporations to do whatever it takes to begin - NOW - flying crate after crate of bottled water down there. And companies like Frito-Lay and Hormel should be setting aside huge allotments of their products. People are going to start dying by the dozens, I'm afraid. There's NOTHING there anymore.



There should be C-130's landing at the airport, stocked with crates of Aquafina or Arrowhead or whatever. If that doesn't start happening soon, the death toll is going to skyrocket in a matter of days.

I hear the New Orleans airport is open for emergency landings (no commercial flight, of course). Planes should be coming in there non-stop, and the stuff should be distributed in the most organized, efficient way possible...in a way that doesn't result in a riot or stampede.

[Franz Josef]

Originally Posted by autodata Therefore, taking it as racism is quite a stretch unless you show that one of the organizations has different labels for blacks and whites.

Hasn't Yahoo simply run them together from different sources? Even if Yahoo only have a moderator role it does look like Yahoo has been (unintentionally no doubt) racist either by act or omission.

[autodata]

Originally Posted by Franz Josef Hasn't Yahoo simply run them together from different sources? Even if Yahoo only have a moderator role it does look like Yahoo has been (unintentionally no doubt) racist either by act or omission.

Not if the image posting that put it up there was largely automated, as a large part of yahoo news is.

I'm also not saying that you can't find more captions from AFP that substantiate the claim, but the fact is that the reaction to the images cited is a knee-jerk one and probably the result of guilt by those who are having the reaction.

[turtle]

Even if Yahoo only have a moderator role it does look like Yahoo has been (unintentionally no doubt) racist either by act or omission.

I have to say no because when someone is dealing with this level of catastrophe they are more likely to be stuck on the photos and not the captions. Was your first thought a racist Yahoo when you saw the pics or was that simply because it was pointed to you as being racist? Most people notice the things they are looking for. Please don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying anyone on this board is racist. However, people tend to key in on the things they dwell on. I can't say it wasn't intended to be racial, but I wasn't looking for something to be racial either. I think it would be wrong to try to pin Yahoo (or any other organization) since it would be the employee to make the problem. It looks to me more like people are being hypersensitive about something that has no real relevance to the MAJOR issue at hand. Let�s not forget the stress everyone is feeling from this flooding and destruction. It doesn�t need to be racial, let it go.

[Franz Josef]

Originally Posted by turtle2472 It looks to me more like people are being hypersensitive about something that has no real relevance to the MAJOR issue at hand.

Media is about balance and Yahoo simply didn't look balanced in those captions - inappropriate and incorrect inferences could easily have been drawn. Stereotypes are easily reinforced and this looked like one example - much depends on perspective. Re major issues, clearing Katrina's aftermath is the most pressing need, but let's be clear, racism is a huge problem for those on the wrong side of any racial divide.

[psmith2.0]

I propose a new naming scheme that'll iron all this out, so everyone can quit worrying about it:

Shitheads vs. Survivors

If you're taking radios, jewelry, TVs, video games, CDs, Playstations, etc. you're a shithead...regardless of color. That city, and those eastern neighborhoods, are heavily black, so there are just going to be a lot of shitheads with black skin. That's just so.

If you're getting water, chips and vienna sausages to feed yourself, your 84-year-old mother and your children who haven't eaten in two days, you're a survivor. Doesn't make it right, but you're trying to live and I personally can't fault you. That city - and those eastern neighborhoods, are heavily black, so there are just going to be a lot survivors with black skin. That's just so.

See how that works?



It's as simple as can be, and doesn't really need much examination beyond that. Good people are suffering and trying to hang on to hope, and bad people - as usual - are acting like idiots and making things tougher than they need to be.

Meanwhile, the water is still rising...

[LudwigVan]

Briefly, regarding the bias/racism in captions, I looked through the 550+ photos on the Yahoo news site (as of about 19:00 GMT) and found only these that refer to the New Orleans lootings. I list them here so people can come to there own conclusions on this matter:

"Looters" (African Americans - AFP (AFP photo))

"Looters" (African Americans - AP (AP photo))

"Finding" (White - AFP/Getty Images (AFP/Getty Images photo))

"Looters" (Puerto Rican? - AP (AP photo))

"Loot" (African American - AP (AP photo))

"Looter" (African American - AP (AP photo))

"Looters" (African Americans - AP (AP photo))

"Looting" (African American - AP (AP photo))

"Looting" (African American - Canadian Press (AP photo))

"Looting" (African American - AP (AP photo))

[billybobsky]

Ludwig, while you are right about that one peculiar "finding" picture, the vast majority of the poor urban residents in NO are black, and these are the people who couldn't afford to leave the city, so it isn't a surprise that the looters are by and large mostly black. After Hugo in costal SC, the looters were mostly white...

[SKMDC]

Originally Posted by LudwigVan Briefly, regarding the bias/racism in captions, I looked through the 550+ photos on the Yahoo news site (as of about 19:00 GMT) and found only these that refer to the New Orleans lootings. I list them here so people can come to there own conclusions on this matter:

New Orleans is a predominately Afro/Carribbean-American community. Many people in the inner-city are poor and undereducated. Poor people didn't have the means to get out of the city. You can let people draw their own conclusions 'til the cows come home, but your example is biased.
If 80% of the citizens left in New Orleans were white, poor and uneducated 80% of your pictures would reflect that.

[LudwigVan]

Originally Posted by SKMDC New Orleans is a predominately Afro/Carribbean-American community. Many people in the inner-city are poor and undereducated. Poor people didn't have the means to get out of the city. You can let people draw their own conclusions 'til the cows come home, but your example is biased. If 80% of the citizens left in New Orleans were white, poor and uneducated 80% of you pictures would reflect that.

I was confining my thoughts to the issue regarding the captions, not making any kind of judgment about those in the photos. I obviously didn't make myself clear in that regard. I can see how my list would be skewed when seen in the context you describe, and that obviously wasn't my intent. I thought my mention of the 550+ photos would put the limited number I found in some perspective. Many of the "non-looting" photos depicted resident African Americans, quite a number of them of residents just trying to survive judging from the photos I scanned.

[Franz Josef]

Originally Posted by billybobsky so it isn't a surprise that the looters are by and large mostly black. After Hugo in costal SC, the looters were mostly white...

Originally Posted by SKMDC If 80% of the citizens left in New Orleans were white, poor and uneducated 80% of your pictures would reflect that.

What LV is lightly alluding too is that the only pictures he could find relating to possible looting badged white "looters" as finders rather than looters and black "looters" as just that. The point is one of media reporting, not whether looting occurred and who carried it out.

[autodata]

Originally Posted by Franz Josef What LV is lightly alluding too is that the only pictures he could find relating to possible looting badged white "looters" as finders rather than looters and black "looters" as just that.

Picture, not pictures.

The problem here is that I agree with the overall point, but the stupidity of thinking this one caption represents anything just makes it all look like a big joke.

[Franz Josef]

Maybe, and I don't want to labor the point but reporting is about balance and the Yahoo pictures allow an inappropriate inference to be drawn. I would struggle to imagine say the BBC doing likewise.

Edit:

Originally Posted by torifile Still no word from elvia... I hope he's ok...

Yeah, I hope he is.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by autodata Picture, not pictures. The problem here is that I agree with the overall point, but the stupidity of thinking this one caption represents anything just makes it all look like a big joke.

Fine, then compare the 2 from AFP. One is of black "looters" and the other white "finders."

Regardless of this issue, the situation is absolutely terrible and I think we can all safely say that we'd probably do the same (find, not loot) if we were in that situation.

Still no word from elvia... I hope he's ok...

[autodata]

I guess I fail to see how one caption that fails to label the people "looters" is evidence of systematic racism in the US media.

[geneman]

My take on the looters, F... 'em.

Focus ALL resources on saving the people that are in need. The stuff that is stolen, is likely to be useless to the a-holes that steal it anyway, why waste manpower to stop them?

Energy and money are much better spent on the victims of this tragic situation.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Originally Posted by torifile Fine, then compare the 2 from AFP. One is of black "looters" and the other white "finders." Regardless of this issue, the situation is absolutely terrible and I think we can all safely say that we'd probably do the same (find, not loot) if we were in that situation. Still no word from elvia... I hope he's ok...

I really don't care. There are hundreds of people on tv looting stores and running out with tvs, stereos, boxes of nike shoes, etc....and they are all black.

Racist of me to observe that?

Maybe the photos were actually taken in a context that would support their captions.

[billybobsky]

Originally Posted by The Return of the 'nut I really don't care. There are hundreds of people on tv looting stores and running out with tvs, stereos, boxes of nike shoes, etc....and they are all black. Racist of me to observe that? Maybe the photos were actually taken in a context that would support their captions.

And all of the photos of people getting into the Superdome show that they were mostly black as well...

Funny that.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Originally Posted by billybobsky Ludwig, while you are right about that one peculiar "finding" picture, the vast majority of the poor urban residents in NO are black, and these are the people who couldn't afford to leave the city, so it isn't a surprise that the looters are by and large mostly black. After Hugo in costal SC, the looters were mostly white...

why couldn't they get out of the city?

Most of the accounts have actually suggested that they just thought they'd sit it through.


I really don't understand the statement that they are too poor to leave the city with advanced notice. Although I don't blame them as much as I blame the local government for not evacuating them earlier and providing bus evacuations