[HOM]

Ok, this is not your typical Apple is doomed thread, but a little question and observation.

Apple's unit shipments have been slowing for a while now. The peak IIRC was the end of 2000. Now this was a combination of multiple factors, the dot com boom, Apple shipping really competitive hardware, the entire color craze. Since then, excepting blips for overhauled hardware, unit shipments are down, to the point where they are almost 1/2 of what they were in 2000.

We all know that Apple is making strides in new markets that they couldn't break into before, but are traditional Apple customers leaving? And If so is it because of OSX?

Here's my reasoning and yes, I'm going to start with an anecdote. I've been doing some freelance Mac consulting for this small documentary production firm. They've been happy running OS9 for years when they upgraded their Performa 6300s to iMacs. This isn't for the video editing, but basic computing. I recently moved one of the terminals to OSX because it solved a ton of issues that they were having with OS9. But as with any OS transition there have been a ton of new issue that cropped up. I've dealt with the new problems, but they are just not happy with OSX. Their iMacs ran OS 9 just fine, but OSX is sluggish. So what does this all mean? When they upgrade their systems sometime next year, they're going with Windows PCs. The argument is nothing new. If they have to buy new computers and new software to take full advantage of OSX, they might as well move to PCs. I've done my job and warned them that their technical issues are going to skyrocket when they move to Windows, but it's not having any impact.

Could this be a large problem for Apple? Is the transition to OSX alienating traditional Mac customers?

[iBrowse]

I know what you mean, and I'm hoping it's just this; the iPod is Apple's newest 'thing' that they're on right now, and in that they are pushing some huge numbers. The advertisement for OS X has been basically nonexistent, I have been seeing OS X more and more, but the word is not out at the level it should be. Sure, they have a lot of resources on their site about OS X and switching over, but the only people that really, truely get psyched up about this and talk about how great it is, are the people, like us here, that got ahold of OS X as soon as we could because it was Apple's newest, greatest thing. I don't think that OS X is killing Apple, I think that Apple isn't giving OS X the chance to live that it deserves.

[stoo]

Have Apple ever advertised Mac OS X itself? I've seen adverts for switching, G5, iPod, iMac, but not Mac OS X.

[Chinney]

I think that switching to OS X from 9 is especially an issue for businesses. I think that a lot of the movement to OS X was among personal users, but my impression is that businesses have been much slower. Apple has only a small percentage of the business market…but it has some, and moving to a whole new OS is a big deal for them. You are talking about business investments, in both personnel time and money. It is an especially big deal if the new OS has significantly higher system requirements to work speedily, and has some hiccups getting off the ground. This has even been an issue for Microsoft in moving to XP - and they have a captive market.

Overall, the movement to X has been pretty smooth for Apple and its users, but not so completely smooth that it has not caused some businesses to reconsider. Of course, if they understood the real costs of maintaining a Windows system, they might reconsider again, but Windows is so much the default, that these costs are assimilated into their thinking without consideration, rather than being given the close scrutiny that they deserve.

[Barto]

Yes OS X is difficult to transition to. But the "solution" of not having OS X would be worse than the problem, simply delaying Apple's death rather than OS X bringing a long-term future to the platform.

[Luca]

Do you think it's possible that OS X's performance might actually SLOW DOWN business for Apple since users don't have to upgrade often? I mean, obviously if you have a Mac designed to run OS 9 (like a CRT iMac or something), you'll want to upgrade. But once everyone has a 700 MHz+ G4, their performance will just keep getting better and better with each OS X update, removing the need to upgrade.

I say this because I remember that System 7 through OS 9 brought worse performance with most updates. They added new features, but at the same time they required faster and faster hardware to run well. Meanwhile, OS X was very slow in 10.0, a bit faster in 10.1, quite a bit faster in 10.2, and so on.

[sCreeD]

Our graphics department (three people) have had major issues with the move to OS X. But Quark is to blame for most of them. The other was a psychological leap they had to take. We lock down our users out of admin rights. They were used to being in total charge of their system but they weren't qualified to troubleshoot problems. System problems have gone away and the more they move away from Classic apps (from QuarkXpress 4 to 6 and soon to Indesign, which I advised them to migrate to 18 months ago) their issues are decreasing.

Shorter me: The more clean a break with OS 9, the better the experience.

If they believe moving to Windows PC will improve system performance for the price, they're probably correct. However, the honeymoon will be short once the first virus makes the rounds or a peripheral should "just work" but constantly bring a system to a merciless halt.

So no, OS X isn't hurting Apple. $499 Dell's versus the intangibles of the Mac experience is hurting Apple.

Stoo, yes, OS X has never been given a fraction of the spotlight that it should. I keep saying, A thirty second spot of OS X full screen, showing Mail, showing a CD burn, iChat, etc. would switch thousands.

Screed

[alcimedes]

i'd say that Apple might be losing some long-time customers by moving to OSX, but this is offset by the mindshare and acceptence among the geek crowd.

for the first time in ages Apple has geek cred, which is worth a lot, IMO. i go to IT meeting for our campus and for the FIRST time ever, i see more than 25% of the computers are Apples. that never would have happened even 3 years ago.

so yeah, they might be losing some folks here and there, but they're gaining a lot of traction among gatekeepers in the IT industry, which should hopefully begin to pay off in the next few years.

[psmith2.0]

I agree with the post above that a quick, clean and all-out transition is best. Kinda like breaking up with a girlfriend.

Don't drag it out and go about it half-ass. If you're keeping OS 9 around for a little late-night booty call, you're selling yourself short because there is this total fox waiting just down the road.



How's THAT for silly-ass analogies?

The peple having most trouble with OS X are the "never update, never learn the system or keyboard commands, etc." types (lke my co-worker).



He'd still be using System 7 or OS 8 if his Quicksilver didn't come with OS 9 on it.

Getting him to X is pretty much a wash, I'm afraid. You have a lot of half-ass Apple "snobs", who like to sit in MUGs and say stuff like "OS X ain't the Mac", just because they're still using an 8-year old computer and restarting it 43 times a day and CONSTANTLY "investigating" extension conflicts and whatnot. Like there's some sort of nobility and honor in doing it "old school". Please.

I wouldn't mind losing some of those types, to be quite honest.



Yeah, it certainly wouldn't hurt Apple to tout OS X a bit more than to just us already-faithful. But I know I'm pissing in the wind on this point, unfortunately. But I think it's key, and I think it would HELP.

[windowsblowsass]

Originally Posted by alcimedes i'd say that Apple might be losing some long-time customers by moving to OSX, but this is offset by the mindshare and acceptence among the geek crowd. for the first time in ages Apple has geek cred, which is worth a lot, IMO. i go to IT meeting for our campus and for the FIRST time ever, i see more than 25% of the computers are Apples. that never would have happened even 3 years ago. so yeah, they might be losing some folks here and there, but they're gaining a lot of traction among gatekeepers in the IT industry, which should hopefully begin to pay off in the next few years.

i agree with osx expanding into it for instance those cdw commercial now show a g5 and an apple boox rolling by

[bassplayinMacFiend]

pscates2.0,

At least it wasn't another car analogy. I'll take a hot chick analogy any day.


Mmmmmmm, b:wow::wow:bs.

[Quagmire]

I agree to some extent. People who want to update to X maybe hesitent for many reasons.

1. OS 9 has some apps that people still want to use.

2. OS X is totally redesigned so some people could be affraid of the change of the look.

3. They have heard alot of problems transtioning to OS X. When my parents updated their Giga Ethernet G4 to Jaquar they had problems using mail, getting use to the dock, and with the new account system.

and probably many more. I don't agree about hurting apple since apple's stock is the highest since 2000.

[Moogs]

A) The hardware Apple is shipping now is a lot more competitive (and a relatively higher quality) than what they were shipping "then".

B) OS X is a superior operating system, even though the Finder is not yet as "Snappy Ž" as the old one in certain respects.

C) The transition to OS X is not a difficult one. Nearly every major application that was available for OS 9 is now available for OS X and many important new apps that were never available for 9.

C1) The transition itself is not difficult or impractical in a technical sense; it's people's resisitance to change that causes difficulty. People will often say "I don't like ___ about OS X... this used to be here and now it's there... and this used to work like this and now it works like that." Most complaints you hear will be of a very arbitrary nature, rather than of functional shortcomings.

That's not a slam on the OS; that's people not wanting to sit down and take the time to understand the changes and learn how to use something new. Happens all the time in the business world with all sorts of processes.

Not saying OS X or its apps are without flaw (they have plenty by our collectively high standards), but IMO, all of the problems like this that I witnessed as a consultant and trainer boils down to people feeling uneasy about change. This feeling isn't a reason to fear, drastically change or rethink OS X.

When employees complain about the new assembly line for making widgets, even though it is more efficient and results in higher quality parts, the solution is not to go back to the old way or change the assembly line. It's to force the employees to understand the new line, why the changes were made, and to not fear it just because it looks and sounds new to them.

Same with OS X. If you're talking about a product that could harm a company's growth potential in huge ways, it's OS 9 you should be looking at. OS X has tremendous potential and is already a very stable and productive system IMO.

[psmith2.0]

I agree 100%, M. And it's true.

After two-plus solid years in X, OS 9 looks - and, frankly, acts - about like some half-ass, weirdo alien OS.

IT'S the problem. IT'S the OS probably giving people headaches in a Mac-based environment. I can't think of anything X doesn't mop the floor with 9 over, except MAYBE the Snappiness aspect. But it's hardly enough.

Networking, setting up, access other drives, installing updates and software, troubleshooting, general productivity (ExposŽ alone is worth the price of admission) and about half a bazillion other factors.

And at this point, I'd imagine 99% of the software used in 9 is available for X. And those that aren't, I can't help but think that there's probably a good reason...AND that a better alternative most likely exists, written from the ground-up in X.

PageMaker is NOT a reason to be clinging to OS 9...

[Xaqtly]

Apple needs to improve font management in OS X. That's something that was better in OS 9. Fontbook doesn't cut it for pro usage, and Suitcase just kind of sucks.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah, well that's why you need to be using FontAgent Pro.

It's pretty much ATM Deluxe for OS X...only better.

Go download the demo and see what you think. I think it's wonderful.

[Moogs]

Not only that, but I don't recall anything particularly robust about OS 9' font management capabilities. All you had was a directory in the System Folder and then ability to open a little preview window to see what it looks like. All the management tools were third party tools (and ATM was never particularly bullet-proof as it often caused conflicts with various apps each time a new rev came out).

Font Book is a 1.0 product right now, and it does have some weaknesses (just as Mail had at 1.0 for example). Yet it still does more to truly manage font usage within the OS than anything OS 9 did with fonts....

[Mac+]

I went from 7.x to 10.1 - admittedly I didn't use my old Classic II for about three years, though. Accordingly, I had little real vested interest in the "cruft" of older Mac OS's. I just started afresh with OS X, Office v.x (edu) and then slowly bought new software as I needed it. I have never looked back! headbang with pride

I would agree with those that say the break needs to done cleanly. One way that this can be accomplished in an organisation is to notify everybody of the change before it is about to occur - explain why, what the advantages will be and how the business will manage the change. Also explain what software will be available and what the alternatives are for the laggard relics which have not carbonised or cocoa'd themselves yet. It's really about management of change I think.

Having said this, I'd also like to add that from my experience at Uni, OS X has amassed a "geek" factor and this is something for which Apple should be proud/grateful. When fellow classmates and lecturers see that I can run Unix and do software coding on my machine (admittedly using Project Builder, since I have not updated to Panther yet), they are pleasantly surprised! The smooth GUI is also a drawcard, but not as much as the UNIX underpinnings.

As for the advertisements for OS X. I have to say that where I live (downunder) I have begun to notice billboards with a browser window or preview pane sporting the familiar traffic light circles on the top left corner... and TV ads with iMacs in offices... as well as examples of OS X desktops when promoting some ISPs. These examples may not have been "placed" by Apple, but the creatives in advertising seem to be subtly infusing the Mac world upon society... even if it is only geeks like myself, and my long suffering wife, who are aware of the phenomenon.

[Xaqtly]

Originally Posted by Moogs Not only that, but I don't recall anything particularly robust about OS 9' font management capabilities.

No, but Suitcase in OS 9 was much better than it is in X, and that seems to be the trend with all the OS X font utilities I've tried so far. Clearly Apple could make a better product if they really went for it, but Fontbook is really half-assing it, and it's useless for professionals.

[stoo]

You have a lot of half-ass Apple "snobs", who like to sit in MUGs and say stuff like "OS X ain't the Mac", just because they're still using an 8-year old computer and restarting it 43 times a day and CONSTANTLY "investigating" extension conflicts and whatnot. Like there's some sort of nobility and honor in doing it "old school". Please.

I suspect that the HardCore Old Skool aren't the typical Mac OS 8/9 user. I'd guess that Mac OS 8/9 users are like my parents, whose 8 year old 6400 still works the way it always has, is acceptably stable, fast enough for usual home office task, still does what they want it to, and therefore doesn't need replaced. If it isn't broken, don't fix it (and in this Mac's case, if it is, Stoo will usually fix it ).

Oddly enough for a maxed 6400 G3 running 8.6, it's rather stable and actually a rather nice machine for its age.

[psmith2.0]

Nope, in my experience, Stoo, it's just as I say it is. Mostly older people, poo-pooing the entire notion of OS X. I don't care what anyone uses - that's not even the point - but these people (some, still using 8.6) totally rag on X. But, when asked "what don't you like about it?" or "did you have a hard time getting it installed and set-up? Maybe I can help..." I find out they've never even TOUCHED it.



Their credibility flies out the window INSTANTLY.

They've just seen screenshots, read stuff, looked at it on Apple's site and briefly tinkered with it at a CompUSA.

There's "hardcore". Then there's "hardcore bonehead".

I don't mean to imply that one's choice of OS is any sort of indication of coolness or whatever. What I DO mean is that, in my experience, most of the people STILL using OS 9 (or earlier) seem to spend a lot of time putzing with their Macs, all while dinging an OS they've a) never given an honest shot to and b) that would deliver them from SCSI/Extension conflict hell they seem to be trapped in using their current set-up.

I've been to MUGs where someone will chirp up something like "I just don't think OS X is a viable, serious operating system...I mean, LOOK at it".



That's just stupid, and I've encountered it on several occasions. And, in my experience, it's been a certain type of person/user (usually skews a bit older, with a distinct "ultra-serious", fuddy-duddy air about them...the kind that sits in a MUG meeting, arms folded, eyebrows arched and with a perpetual smirk pasted on their face, just waiting for an opportunity to ding anything post-1996).



Trust me.

Use what you want, people...just don't bend my ear with your latest tales of SCSI, Extension, freezing, etc. woes. I've moved on, and while OS X isn't 100% perfect and glitch-free, it's a damn sight more stable and easier to get around in than anything prior. And if someone's not even given it an honest shot and truly formed a valid opinion based on ACTUALLY USING IT, then I just don't have much to say to them in this area.

My sympathy well is tapped, and my attention span is down to below 5%.

[stoo]

Well, you'v scared me off Mac User Groups for life.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah...me too. Weren't as much fun as I'd hoped.