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iWork '05 = goodbye MS Office 2004?


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iWork '05 = goodbye MS Office 2004?
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matt
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2004-12-31, 16:36

so i was curious on what you monkies thought of the rumor of iWork '05 coming out? Do you think Microsoft will discontinue making MS Office for the Mac because of Apple's built-in (with new machines) office app?

As they did because of Apple's built-in web browser - Safari. [MS no longer develops code/updates for IE for Mac]
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Dave Hagan
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2004-12-31, 16:57

No, I hope not. Apple needs to be a little strong, and Microsoft much much weaker before Apple can threaten the Office empire.
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matt
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2004-12-31, 17:01

hey i agree with you. But Big Bill might see this app, and be like

"F@#$ Apple, if they want MS Office on their Macs they will have to buy Virtual PC from me, and MS Office for Windows."

Wouldn't suprise me.
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IonYz
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2004-12-31, 17:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt
As they did because of Apple's built-in web browser - Safari. [MS no longer develops code/updates for IE for Mac]
Well there is a big difference between a free web browser they use to muscle in on an industry (as is their tactic) and Office, one of the two pillars of their empire. Microsoft is only truly two things, their office suite and their operating system.

Mac IE was running its own render engine (Talisman) which differed from Windows IE (Tangent). Talisman can do some things that trip up Tangent, and vice versa. But Tangent is required because it is so ingrained in the Windows platform. Yet Microsoft has also ceased major development for Windows IE. The abandon both products offering only security updates and other trinkets to their Windows counterpart. Any major development will come in Longhorn.

Long as money is seeping into MS's pockets I can't see them taking away one of their major products from the Mac. Cause see, if they did they might as well leave the platform all together. The rest of their Mac products are dismal compared with their PC counterparts.

Mac OS X is unique in that it offers industry-standard products like Dreamweaver, Photoshop and Office while being a UNIX at heart. I've heard many people using that as a major plus. If Microsoft pulls Office its because they have been planning to for a while, just waiting for a public excuse to leave. Would that rock the boat with Macromedia and Adobe?

Well Adobe has felt the burn, see Final Cut Pro/Express and Primere. What saves both sides is that Primere isn't an industry-standard.

I doubt iWork will be feature comparible to Office, highly doubt it. Is iMovie comparible to Final Cut Express? These Products can live in harmony long as both companies understand them. What MS would lose sales on is all those people that don't need all those features, but they retain others that simple purchase it to "be compatible with others".

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IonYz
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2004-12-31, 17:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt
hey i agree with you. But Big Bill might see this app, and be like

"F@#$ Apple, if they want MS Office on their Macs they will have to buy Virtual PC from me, and MS Office for Windows."

Wouldn't suprise me.
Haha
- Office is over-priced as it is.
- VPC runs like a dog with one leg.

If it comes to that, us Mac heads have only two rebuttals:
- Explaining to others you probably don't need Office.
- Just to buy a PC (see "Response to Gamers")

Your betting how many casual people use Office, and don't need to. Marketshare is already lower then low, it would take more then Office leaving.

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DrGruv
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2004-12-31, 17:39

i have office 98 for when people send me those types... but all my stuff is in appleworks

people will probably have both...
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jyo
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2004-12-31, 17:46

I have been using AppleWorks for years. I honestly told myself that it could do the job that I needed.

Boy was I wrong. I frequently run into problems doing things that I can do at work with MS Office.

When iLife hit the streets, I really hoped that Apple would turn its eye to AppleWorks.
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psmith2.0
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2004-12-31, 17:54

Wow, what a pretty awesome week for juicy rumors (all it took was thegelding starting a thread about it )

I'm excited about this MWSF more than any other, I believe. Actually seems to be a reasonable mix of practical, "use everyday" stuff.

I love new hardware, but it's truly about the stuff you USE on your Mac - the OS, the software, etc. - that I really appreciate. This iWork thing...can't wait to see what it is. Sounds like Keynote is a part of of it. I'd love to see it somehow be around $99 (bundled free on new stuff, of course).

Shaping up to be a great MWSF, IF most of these rumors and reports actually pan out.
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Jay
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2004-12-31, 18:49

I don't think it will be the down fall of Office yet. If Apple ever gets to 25% - 30% market share maybe it might evolve into an Office killer, but not yet. I'm thinking it's just AppleWorks brought back from the dead and modernized, hopefully from the ground up. Right now TextEdit is all I really need, but I do have OpenOffice in case I need something with a bit more power.
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SonOfSylvanus
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2004-12-31, 19:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0
Wow, what a pretty awesome week for juicy rumors (all it took was thegelding starting a thread about it )

I'm excited about this MWSF more than any other, I believe. Actually seems to be a reasonable mix of practical, "use everyday" stuff.

I love new hardware, but it's truly about the stuff you USE on your Mac - the OS, the software, etc. - that I really appreciate. This iWork thing...can't wait to see what it is. Sounds like Keynote is a part of of it. I'd love to see it somehow be around $99 (bundled free on new stuff, of course).

Shaping up to be a great MWSF, IF most of these rumors and reports actually pan out.
Jeezus



It's like every rumour that ever existed is meant to come true this MWSF!

I'm almost giddy with excitement (I said almost ).

Nick must have some, like, top-level-dude source at Apple who just feeds him this stuff... if said dude ever got found out, TS would fold.

Here's to seeing what 11/01/05 brings!

bouncy bouncy
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BuonRotto
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2004-12-31, 21:19

Yeah, Nick de Plume's repute (he's been good in the past) is on the line at this point, or perhaps it's fair to say, assuming he does have sources he trusts, that his sources are on the line. Who knows, maybe this will smoke out his sources.

Anyway, if you want to be optimistic about this one, look at it this way. First, MS depends on two main sources of revenue to feed all their other projects: Windows and Office in the enterprise market. If Office for Mac is that important to MS (and I've heard it is, and that's why they've gotten their panties in a bunch when it hasn't sold well on OS X and were willing to offer the so-called education versions at retail), then Apple could call them out on this, call their bluff about pulling Office and force MS to continue their progress on Office for Mac and compatibility with the Windows' Office. It would be a risk, for sure, but is MS going to take their bat and ball and go home at the first sign of competition?

I'm sure Apple will not have some important Office features in this version anyway. Of course, they will probably also make some fairly important improvements to how their suite works: graphics, some UI differences, some sharing and networking stuff, etc. Obviously, it will probably only have rudimentary Office translation ability too. In all, it won't be an Office killer, but they've probably waited this long to make a really good first pass.
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matt
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2004-12-31, 22:11

although i started this argument, i would like to add:

MS always develops Office products for Mac first. As you old timers can confirm, Word was originally designed for the only GUI OS - MacOS. They have continued to lead with the Mac even today. Hence Office 2004 Mac, which is ahead of its counterpart Office 2003 Windows.
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Dave K.
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2004-12-31, 22:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt
hey i agree with you. But Big Bill might see this app, and be like

"F@#$ Apple, if they want MS Office on their Macs they will have to buy Virtual PC from me, and MS Office for Windows."

Wouldn't suprise me.
Can you blame Apple though? Microsoft Office 2003 on the PC is a significantly better product than Office 2004 for the Mac. Everyone knows this, including Apple.

Microsoft has been developing crap applications for the Mac platform for far too long and Apple needs to put a stop to it.

If Microsoft really cared about Mac Office, where is the Access port already? What about Visio/FrontPage/Publisher/Project/etc.? Where is simpler apps such as Money?
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matt
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2004-12-31, 22:26

those are some good points Dave. Out of all MS apps I love MS Money. I really wish Apple would develop a financial program. I hate Quicken 2004!! It is so un-intuative.
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BuonRotto
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2004-12-31, 23:37

"financial program" and "intuitive" rarely if ever belong in the same sentence.

iWork would be a success if it simply gave MS a kick in the butt. Even if it eventually fell into the purgatory that is Appleworks now, it would have to at least do this.
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drewprops
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2005-01-01, 01:41

I went in to the Apple Store this week, to play with Keynote on the off chance I could show some new tricks to one of my steady clients who normally rely on PowerPoint. I was intrigued at some of the features, but ultimately disappointed.

One of the store employees came over and ran through some of the NEW Office stuff with me and I have to say that I was impressed. I just read tonight that the Mac version of PowerPoint may in fact be in parity with the XP version.

Apple's business software just isn't as fully featured as the M$ stuff...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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yeyeogun
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2005-01-01, 02:15

The purpose of this chart is to clarify the truth, rumors, and speculation. Hopefully someone will help in this organization.
Consumer Pro-Consumer Professional

Music editing: GarageBand Logic Express Logic Pro
Video editing: iMovie Final Cut Express Final Cut Pro HD
Photo editing: iPhoto Image Express Image Pro
DVD creation: iDVD DVD Studio Express DVD Studio Pro
Video graphics: Motion (v.2) Express Motion Pro
Video compositing: Shake Express Shake Pro

Presentation: AppleWorks Keynote (Listed as an Application)
Word Processing: AppleWorks Pages (known as Document)
Spreadsheet: AppleWorks
Database: AppleWorks FileMaker Developer (Listed as an Application) FileMaker Pro (Not listed under Apple Applications)
FileMaker Server (Listed as an Application) FileMaker Server Advanced (Not listed under Apple Applications)
FileMaker Mobile (Not listed under Apple Applications)
Drawing: AppleWorks
Painting: AppleWorks



Music Organization: iTunes
Video Organization:
Photo Organization: iPhoto
Text Organization:

Add on FileMaker:
Work Requests
Tasks
Recruiter
Meetings
Donations
Add on Sound Packs:
Jam Pack 1 Instruments, Loops, and Effects
Jam Pack 2 Remix Tools
Jam Pack 3 Rhythm Section
Jam Pack 4 Symphony Orchestra code-named Hermann
Add on Keynote Packs: ???

Blue is in the wrong category Orange is the corrected category Red is has never been produced

This List does not include those applications being upgraded at MacWorld such as iLife '05 code-named Sphere, iDVD 5 code-named Maui, iMovie 5 code-named Storm, iPhoto 5 code-named Spellbound, and iTunes 4.7.1 update. Also the rumored hardware products such as the FireWire breakout box code-named Asteroid, the "headless" iMac code-named Q88, the iPhone, and the iPod Flash.

Question 1:
Is the iWork application code-named Sugar the replacement of AppleWorks or a new suite that is like the Pro or Pro Consumer Additions to Apple's line-up?

Question 2:
If the software code-named Sugar includes Keynote 2 as well as a new application Pages then what is Crossbow and Slingshot the two Keynote-related products in development?

Question 3:
Why is iPhoto being considered a Photo Editing Application isn't it a Photo Organization Application? To classify it as a PE Application is one step closer to a Graphics Application a.k.a. Photoshop.
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yoda_four
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2005-01-01, 06:13

What was the point of that? The colours don't even show up. It's one of the worst lineup lists I have ever seen. Very confusing and poorly organized/incomplete.

1. iWork, to my understanding as of now, is simply going to be a replacement for AppleWorks. Apple needed to replace that old suite anyways, and now they can truly boast that all new Macs are ready right out of the box (especially boasted if the xMac rumour is true). The whole iWork suite, whatever it ends up including, are going to be advertised towards consumers; NOT professionals. It is only the suite's first iteration, and if pros need more, Office:mac 2004 is avaiable at any time.

2. I'm sure TS is working right now to figure out exactly what Crossbow and/or Slingshot are. Considering they got on top of the 'Sugar' rumour quite quickly, I would assume we'll be reading another news item in the next few days.

(I hope C/S end up being the Spreadsheet and Data Manager, parts of iWork. Why? 1) A suite compromised of 2 apps is rather sad and incomplete. 2) I'd much rather have new apps then Keynote theme packs, as good as they may be -------- Another thing: "Pages" is THE most lame name for an app, Apple app nontheless. Document would've been much better, even though is has those recognition probs. But, I'm sure if this pans out, they'll come up with something better.)

BTW, I know that first list was made by me in another thread and it was simply a wish list for a complete Consumer/Prosumer/Professional lineup from Apple. Why can't iPhoto be considered both an editing and organization tool, especially since in true fact it is? In no way was it being called Photoshop. If you'd actually read the list properly, iPhoto's editing functions are for consumers, a program similar to Adobe's Photoshop Elements (for which Apple's version I named Image Express) for the Prosumers, and a Photoshop CS like app (Image Pro).
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Deestar
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2005-01-01, 07:40

CONFIRMED?

US Trademark for iWork from Apple, filed in August 2004.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...ate=e5id7n.5.1

The serial number is: 78462838. The search session expires overtime

Last edited by Deestar : 2005-01-01 at 08:28.
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staph
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2005-01-01, 07:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deestar
CONFIRMED?

US Trademark for iWork from Apple, filed in August 2004.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...ate=e5id7n.5.1
It appears they haven't registered Pages, however (unless I don't understand their crappy search system…)

BTW: what's with posting the same information in two threads at once?
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Deestar
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2005-01-01, 08:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by staph
It appears they haven't registered Pages, however (unless I don't understand their crappy search system…)

BTW: what's with posting the same information in two threads at once?
Because it is relevant to both threads?
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cloud 9
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2005-01-01, 09:41

it was a deal between apple and microsoft to bring office to mac...bill made a profit from it...from all macusers buying it... in return apple gained better reputation als 'compatible' and maybe, compatibility between iwork and office?

so nobody is going to be pissed off if apple released it's own decent 'office' aka iwork'05...that's my opinion
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yeyeogun
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2005-01-01, 09:44

Sorry, for some reason colors did not show up. The charts purpose is to clarify everything we are speaking of. As for iPhoto, I believe it is better classified as an Organizational Software until Apple develops a partner program. 2 years ago I read at Apple Insider that Apple was developing a Pro Graphics program. I don't right now recall the name. The said it complimented iPhoto and filled Apple's Pro Series Gap for use with Final Cut and DVD Studio Pro.
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thequicksilver
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2005-01-01, 10:26

I don't like the idea of taking on Microsoft as regards Office at this juncture. Fact is, Office is pretty much the app everyone considers the gold standard in productivity. That's always the first question I'm asked when I suggest someone get a Mac - but what about Microsoft Office? Saying it exists for the Mac too is often the clincher - not saying 'there's a cool solution from Apple which works with it and should be mostly compatible'. That's not enough.

(That said, I'm totally underwhelmed with Office 2004 on the occasions I've used it. I use Office X on my iBook G4 (previous gen), and have used 2004 on the next gen of iBook that a friend has. Office X is far snappier and Word particularly is awfully slow on his newer iBook.)

It's bad enough trying to persuade someone away from Windows to the Mac even *with* Microsoft Office available. Without, frankly I don't see any mass adoption on the scale that's been predicted by many.
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iRobot
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2005-01-01, 10:38

It seems to me that it matters very little whether or not this lives up to the gold standard of MS Office.

The standard isn't as golden as one might think.

It's useful, its featureset is impressive, but it could quite easily be improved upon.

As long as this new suite saves and opens in all of the requisite Office extensions will full format preservation it'll cover 99% of users.

Sure, many switchers may not realize that at first, but by their next generation purchase they'll almost certainly figure it out.

And as for all those who're already on the mac platform, I'm sure they'll be itching to try it out.


This isn't going to slay Office by any means, but its finally going to sever the umbilical cord between a Mac as the ultimate user-friendly machine, and microsoft Office, the software package that actually makes a mac useable.
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Hobbes
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2005-01-01, 10:53

Finally.

Spot on, iR.

Last edited by Hobbes : 2005-01-01 at 11:52.
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Moogs
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2005-01-01, 11:52

I think if Apple is smart, they'll play a little game whereby they don't attempt to make iWork a replacement for Office 2004, but rather something targeted for the prosumer space.

They should just leave out two or three key features for every app (say Track Changing and Macros for the WP), that are more or less the domain of corporate / small business users. IOW, don't interfere with MS' key marketing points for its office suite, but meanwhile follow the "all most people need amounts to 60% of Office's functionality anyway" rule and make good on it.

If iWork ends up being fast, stable and containing most of the *core* functionality of Office, without many of the bells and whistles, and of course file format compatibility... Apple will do great and MS will keep its core Office user base.

A lot of people will still use Office for Entourage and Excel alone, because I don't think Apple is going to compete in either of those spaces, given the depth of functionality those apps have.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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BenRoethig
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2005-01-01, 13:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs
I think if Apple is smart, they'll play a little game whereby they don't attempt to make iWork a replacement for Office 2004, but rather something targeted for the prosumer space.

They should just leave out two or three key features for every app (say Track Changing and Macros for the WP), that are more or less the domain of corporate / small business users. IOW, don't interfere with MS' key marketing points for its office suite, but meanwhile follow the "all most people need amounts to 60% of Office's functionality anyway" rule and make good on it.

If iWork ends up being fast, stable and containing most of the *core* functionality of Office, without many of the bells and whistles, and of course file format compatibility... Apple will do great and MS will keep its core Office user base.

A lot of people will still use Office for Entourage and Excel alone, because I don't think Apple is going to compete in either of those spaces, given the depth of functionality those apps have.
Personally, as long as iWork '05 is better than MS Works 8, I'm happy. When it comes to office suites, unless Apple is able to make something innovative that writes .doc, .xls, and .ppt files as standard, the Mac version of office will reign supreme. Apple having their own suite with its own file extentions would hurt a lot more than it would help.
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Moogs
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2005-01-01, 13:50

Sorry, I didn't phrase that in the right order. I meant that Apple *should* make the files compatible with office as much as is practical. If they don't it will be pretty useless as a productivity suite. And of course, expect MS to play all sorts of little games with their interim suite updates, whereby each of the file format DTDs change just a little bit to deal with some enhancement or "fix", thus breaking some aspect of Apple's compatibility with the format.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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Kickaha
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2005-01-01, 14:39

Oh, did you forget? MS has a *patent* on parsers for the Office XML DTDs. No, I'm not kidding.

It is infringement to produce a 100% compatible file format reader/writer.

Nice, eh? Data lock-in wasn't enough, they had to make it illegal for anyone else to use it.
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