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Question about US Election campaign
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Jason
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
 
2016-02-19, 11:43

I'm not American but lately I've found myself curiously drawn to US politics.
Can anyone tell me why the Democratic race is just basically two people (Clinton & Sanders) and yet the Republic nominations have a whole host of people trying to win votes?

Is this part of the voting system or something?

Regards
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2016-02-19, 11:52

A couple of reasons...

1) Each party is more or less open to anyone who wishes to throw their hat in the ring, but pretenders tend to fall to the wayside quickly and early in most years, leaving only a couple of serious contenders by this point. The GOP hasn't culled out the secondary tier as quickly as most years, although there is definitely precedent for this. The biggest change that I see is the more public battles between the entire crowd.

2) The GOP hasn't reduced the ranks because there's a genuine fracturing of the party that's been brewing for years. Small government factions, fiscal conservatives, evangelical Christians, fundamentalist Christians, big business wonks, free market uber alles fans, libertarians... they all fell under the GOP umbrella, and the internal pressures between them have hit a boiling point.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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709
Damned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-02-19, 12:27

The Clinton/Sanders thing on the Dem side is also very weird and splintered, even if less of a mess than the Repubs (for now). We have a self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist going against a Conservative Democrat, and the lines couldn't be more stark. Sanders is getting the youth and progressive vote, Clinton is getting the older, mostly white vote. Which is an oddity, given that you'd expect it to be the other way around, what with the First Female against some Old Jew. Apparently personalities make a difference in politics.

Even though Sanders tied Clinton in the Iowa caucus and trounced her in New Hampshire, her delegate count is far more than his owing to 'superdelegates', which are basically delegates (who ostensibly are tasked for voting who the people in their respective State voted for) that have no State affiliation and can vote for whoever they want to be the (D) candidate. Usually long-time politicians that enjoy a bit of palm-greasing. It's a bit fucked, as a lot of our processes are deciding on a candidate for the primary.

I kind've wish Biden was in the mix as he'd be most electable (imo), but he's made it clear this isn't for him.

So it goes.
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2016-02-19, 13:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
The Clinton/Sanders thing on the Dem side is also very weird and splintered, even if less of a mess than the Repubs (for now). We have a self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist going against a Conservative Democrat, and the lines couldn't be more stark. Sanders is getting the youth and progressive vote, Clinton is getting the older, mostly white vote. Which is an oddity, given that you'd expect it to be the other way around, what with the First Female against some Old Jew. Apparently personalities make a difference in politics.
I'd argue it's not personalities, it's proposals. The Millennials know they're fucked over by the current system, and are looking to change it, rather fundamentally. The older generations don't give a rat's ass for the most part, they've gotten their share, and most honestly don't understand how utterly different things are today for someone looking at college or entering the job market.

The fact that an old fart is the only one backing them is sad. I hope Sanders' legacy is a new generation of citizens who feel actually empowered to change government so it goes back to 'for the People'.

Quote:
Even though Sanders tied Clinton in the Iowa caucus and trounced her in New Hampshire, her delegate count is far more than his owing to 'superdelegates', which are basically delegates (who ostensibly are tasked for voting who the people in their respective State voted for) that have no State affiliation and can vote for whoever they want to be the (D) candidate. Usually long-time politicians that enjoy a bit of palm-greasing. It's a bit fucked, as a lot of our processes are deciding on a candidate for the primary.
I've been less irritated by the superdelegates, after doing some research and seeing that the superdelegates have never, as a block, voted against the popular vote as it eventually ended up. They can change their minds at any time, and always fall in line with the public favorite in the end. So far.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
  quote
709
Damned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-02-19, 13:54

True, but were talking about an Independent running as a Democrat, so I guess we'll get to see what the DNC delegates have in mind if Clinton gets on a losing streak. I don't doubt that if Sanders gains more momentum and it looks like Clinton is about to go down that the supers will switch. Worse case scenario is that Sanders wins more State delegates (*Jason: the public vote) but not enough where the superdelegates (the DNC vote) can give the General to Clinton. What a beautiful shit-storm that will be.

So it goes.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2016-02-19, 13:58

I seem to say this about every 3-4 years, but it has never been more true: in a country of 300M+ people, how in the sweet holy hell does it always come down to a handful of mental patients, professional fuckwits, snake oil vendors and ego cases none of us would trust to look over our house and feed our pet while we went on vacation?

Truly unbelievable.

There is nobody, on either side, I'd feel good about voting for. Been this way for 20+ years. I'm done with the "holding my nose and hoping for the best" nonsense. That's all I've ever done, it seems.

It's all such a sad, ridiculous circus. It always has been, I suppose. But you'll never convince me that the 24/7 cable news outlets and the Internet (social media, etc.) haven't made it all 20x more idiotic, point-missing and zoo-like the past decade or two.

NOTE: Kickaha and 709 answer your questions specifically. I'm just providing "big picture", general personal commentary on those things.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2016-02-19, 15:12

The reason for the small field on the Dem side is that it's supposed to be Clintons turn. She's paid her dues and has been running forever. Plus she's bought up most of the endorsements and has most of the big money. That makes for a small field.

I do love seeing the establishment freak out when things don't go as planned though.
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curiousuburb
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Join Date: May 2004
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2016-03-01, 03:22

NY Times Reporting on The Desperate Plans to Stop Trump from Inside the Republican Party ... included within is a link to a handy interactive graphic with sliders for you to calculate your own options and % for each remaining candidates based on results before or after Super Tuesday and other deadlines

It ain't Nate Silver level accurate, but fun to play with nonetheless

All those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand.
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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-01, 10:43

Barring a Marco Rubio miracle tonight, Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, which means he's going to get absolutely creamed by Clinton.

I hate Hillary but I will still hold my nose and vote for her before I ever vote for Trump. If it came down to Trump vs. Sanders (which it won't, but) I would happily vote for Sanders in that situation. At least he has some integrity.

Romney's been getting increasingly feisty the last few days, I wonder if he's considering jumping in.
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Luca
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2016-03-01, 14:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousuburb View Post
NY Times Reporting on The Desperate Plans to Stop Trump from Inside the Republican Party ... included within is a link to a handy interactive graphic with sliders for you to calculate your own options and % for each remaining candidates based on results before or after Super Tuesday and other deadlines

It ain't Nate Silver level accurate, but fun to play with nonetheless
In typical GOP fashion, they waited until the 11th hour, and now it's too late to do anything. The time to stop him was six months ago when his campaign was still thought of as an elaborate joke by many. Now he's the strong favorite to win.

Part of me absolutely hates him, since, you know, he's a racist, narcissistic, chauvinistic, compulsively-lying, pandering asshole. But another part of me loves that the GOP establishment is getting their ass handed to them by popular revolt, even if I'm not part of it. This would be like if Sanders was pulverizing Clinton despite the Democrats' best laid plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
Barring a Marco Rubio miracle tonight, Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, which means he's going to get absolutely creamed by Clinton.

I hate Hillary but I will still hold my nose and vote for her before I ever vote for Trump. If it came down to Trump vs. Sanders (which it won't, but) I would happily vote for Sanders in that situation. At least he has some integrity.

Romney's been getting increasingly feisty the last few days, I wonder if he's considering jumping in.
Interestingly enough, I checked out the betting odds on the Republican nominee and several sites have Mitt Romney available to be bet on, with only slightly lower odds than John Kasich (who himself is only slightly behind Ted Cruz). It's really down to Trump vs. Rubio at this point, with Cruz unable to make headway with the only demographic he ought to be winning (evangelicals).
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murbot
Big Idiot
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2016-03-01, 15:04

Not sure this should go in here, but here you go:

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Donald Trump

OH MY GOD what a great way to spend 20 minutes.

If you haven't seen it yet, grab a coffee and sit back.
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kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2016-03-01, 15:24

I'll take my popcorn and watch all you silly people argue over which corporate-owned jackass pretends the best to represent you.
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kieran
Tweeting @kierankelly
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York City
 
2016-03-01, 17:10

It's sad, but I just stay the hell out of it.

There's no incentive in it for people who don't fall specifically into either of the two predominant parties. Yes, there are other candidates, but they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of making an impact.

Last edited by kieran : 2016-03-01 at 17:50.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2016-03-01, 17:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I'll take my popcorn and watch all you silly people argue over which corporate-owned jackass pretends the best to represent you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran View Post
It's sad, but I just stay the hell out of it.

There's no incentive in it for people whodunit fall specifically into either of the two predominant parties. Yes, there are other candidates, but they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of making an impact.
Nailed it. To the wall. These boys get it (and it's nice to know I'm not completely alone in my thoughts/frustration).
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curiousuburb
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
 
2016-03-01, 19:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
Barring a Marco Rubio miracle tonight, Trump is going to be the GOP nominee, which means he's going to get absolutely creamed by Clinton.

I hate Hillary but I will still hold my nose and vote for her before I ever vote for Trump. If it came down to Trump vs. Sanders (which it won't, but) I would happily vote for Sanders in that situation. At least he has some integrity.

Romney's been getting increasingly feisty the last few days, I wonder if he's considering jumping in.
I thought I had read that ex-NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg was considering running as an Independent (and announced he would be happily spending his own Billion$ to self fund) "if Trump veered right and Sanders pulled Clinton too far left".

Might be getting late to get on the ballot in some states though...

That said... given how the last few Billionaire 3rd party Independent runs have gone (Perot, etc.)... and the net effect attributed to them (if they don't win, they're just splitting votes away and playing spoiler... but most likely from whom this time)?


All those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-01, 19:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousuburb View Post
I thought I had read that ex-NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg was considering running as an Independent (and announced he would be happily spending his own Billion$ to self fund) "if Trump veered right and Sanders pulled Clinton too far left".

Might be getting late to get on the ballot in some states though...

That said... given how the last few Billionaire 3rd party Independent runs have gone (Perot, etc.)... and the net effect attributed to them (if they don't win, they're just splitting votes away and playing spoiler... but most likely from whom this time)?

Rumors going around are that Bloomberg has ruled out a run.

I think Romney would be getting in knowing he would lose (again). I think he just wants to deprive Trump of a general election victory.

What really interests/concerns me is the number of Trump voters who are saying in exit polls that they were previously Obama voters. That's an... interesting mindset.
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turbulentfurball
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2016-03-01, 19:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post

What really interests/concerns me is the number of Trump voters who are saying in exit polls that they were previously Obama voters. That's an... interesting mindset.
Obama ran as the 'change' candidate in 2008, and Trump is putting himself forward as a change candidate now. A different kind of change, certainly!

But yeah, that's where the similarity ends, I'd say.
  quote
Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-01, 22:56

Just returned from my caucus. I was the only person who showed up from my precinct, so by unanimous vote I'm the precinct delegate to the county convention in three weeks.
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Capella
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2016-03-02, 06:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
Just returned from my caucus. I was the only person who showed up from my precinct, so by unanimous vote I'm the precinct delegate to the county convention in three weeks.
UNLIMITED POWER!

*/Palpatine*

Have fun with it.
  quote
Dr. Bobsky
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: A town that Germany forgot.
 
2016-03-02, 09:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Nailed it. To the wall. These boys get it (and it's nice to know I'm not completely alone in my thoughts/frustration).
I'm sorry, but elections have consequences, and Drumpf getting anywhere near the presidency is completely appalling. This is beyond normally warranted apathy, the choice here is rather plain to see.
  quote
Chinney
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2016-03-02, 19:15

My view is that the rise of Trump reflects an internal contradiction within the Republican Party. Despite having had considerable support among parts of lower-income working voters for the past 40-50 years, the GOP has offered them little other than tax cuts for the wealthy, exporting their jobs overseas, and putting their lives at risk in foreign wars fought for questionable purposes. Trump makes noises that he will change that. While his candidacy might make the Republican establishment fearful, the establishment is no longer in control. That Trump combines his promise for change with hints of xenophobia, racism, and totalitarianism does not seem to have hurt him. I am not sure that Trump actually is personally a fascist, but I think that it is more likely that he is a salesman that is using an overlay of facism as a campaign ploy. I also doubt that he actually is in a position to deliver much, if anything, for the people who support him. I think that he would largely be an ineffectual boob as President.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2016-03-02, 19:54

I'd rather have an ineffectual boob as President than Clinton who is a blood thirsty war monger and tool of the Oligarchs. Just my two cents.
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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
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2016-03-02, 22:13

Get ready for this to run nonstop for the next eight months:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JGJVJTwLYo
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tomoe
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2016-03-03, 02:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
I'd rather have an ineffectual boob as President than Clinton who is a blood thirsty war monger and tool of the Oligarchs. Just my two cents.
Who is the 'ineffectual boob' you'd rather have and why do you support them?
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2016-03-03, 10:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
My view is that the rise of Trump reflects an internal contradiction within the Republican Party. Despite having had considerable support among parts of lower-income working voters for the past 40-50 years, the GOP has offered them little other than tax cuts for the wealthy, exporting their jobs overseas, and putting their lives at risk in foreign wars fought for questionable purposes. Trump makes noises that he will change that. While his candidacy might make the Republican establishment fearful, the establishment is no longer in control. That Trump combines his promise for change with hints of xenophobia, racism, and totalitarianism does not seem to have hurt him. I am not sure that Trump actually is personally a fascist, but I think that it is more likely that he is a salesman that is using an overlay of facism as a campaign ploy. I also doubt that he actually is in a position to deliver much, if anything, for the people who support him. I think that he would largely be an ineffectual boob as President.
On the contrary, being racist is helping him with his supporters, who are also racists. He says controversial stuff and takes the heat for them. The most common reason I've heard for people supporting Trump is that he "speaks his mind" or "tells it like it is." That he's "not politically correct." That is code for "he says racist shit that I agree with but am too embarrassed to say myself."

As for the second bolded sentence, yes, I also think he crafts his statements and positions to attract the most attention and support. Every politician does this to some extent, some more than others. Bernie Sanders seems to do it less. Hillary Clinton does it more IMO (one reason I'm not a huge fan of hers). I think Trump is the least principled candidate in the race and his acts as president would be wildly unpredictable. One of many reasons why I'm scared of him possibly becoming president.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoe View Post
Who is the 'ineffectual boob' you'd rather have and why do you support them?
Chinney referred to Trump as that in his post.
  quote
kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2016-03-03, 11:19

I long for the day when both voting bases will stumble from their brainwashed stupors and realize that there is no such thing as "Republicans" or "Democrats" amongst their elected officials. There are only "Republicrats" whose primary motive is to use an ancient military tactic called Divide and Conquer, in which a large power (the American people) are systematically divided into smaller (Republicans and Democrats) and smaller (Trump/Cruz/Rubio supporters and Clinton/Sanders supporters) and smaller (Protestant/Catholic/Mormon and Black/Mexican/White) powers until the balance of power has been shifted from the people to the government (in this case, the Executive and Judicial branches) such that the people no longer have control over those who rule over them and are, instead, relegated to surf status.

The word "racist" is a weapon hurled by the left flank of the Divide and Conquer strategy.

Since November 2016, I have tried to live my life without politics or football, and it has been the most peaceful time of my life.

Last edited by kscherer : 2016-03-03 at 12:26.
  quote
Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2016-03-03, 11:31

Alright! Surf status! Catch some waves!

Racist is code for 'mouth breathing dumbfuck without the required four functioning braincells to see what the world actually looks like beyond their little enclave'.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
  quote
kscherer
Ain't got none
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2016-03-03, 12:25

If anyone wants to have a civil discussion of the "ideas" of either candidate, I am game to do so. If we are going to call each other (or the candidates) names, then I'll go back to my popcorn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Alright! Surf status! Catch some waves!

Racist is code for 'mouth breathing dumbfuck without the required four functioning braincells to see what the world actually looks like beyond their little enclave'.
If people actually called him a 'mouth breathing dumbfuck without the required four functioning braincells to see what the world actually looks like beyond their little enclave', and then provided some facts to support that claim, I would have no problem with that. Calling him a "racist" with no ground to stand on is nothing more than a very cheap fear tactic, as I stated. Instead, they resort to using labels (contrary to the Democratic ideology), which presents them as hypocrites. If one is to subscribe to an idea, then one must set a proper example.

Trump has not (to my knowledge) claimed his race is superior to all others, nor have any of his followers (excepting the KKK, who I suspect "endorse Trump" more to stir up trouble than to grant him their support). While I disagree with that other long thing you said, Kick, it is much closer to the truth than "racist", which is why the word is so damaging to the American people as a whole. Attack his ideas with reason and you will have my respect. Call him names and you lose credibility.

For what it's worth, the Democrats also have a racist skeleton in the closet, considering they are backed by the Black Panthers and the Jackson/Sharpton crowd.

So, let's just chuck the "racist" garbage and focus on America's actual, you know, issues. Like war, which leads to debt, which leads to high taxes, which leads to high unemployment, which leads to elevated poverty, which leads to claims of racism. Let's also discuss the increasing interference of government in private business and it's negative effects on the cost of goods, employment, and competition. We could also discuss the government's outright refusal to protect individual liberties as mandated by the Bill of Rights, or any other such thing.

I have no intention of being drawn into worrying over social issues (which do not fall within the powers of the federal government). These are best left to the people and the states to decide.



As for my support of either candidate, neither has it. Both have made it abundantly clear they will illegally use "Executive Action" to further their respective administrations. Since the role of the President does not include making law, the promises made by all candidates (including those who are currently losing) are irrelevant and little more than white lies. The Executive Privilege exists to give the President authority to execute the laws of the United States, not to make or amend them. To promise to "make laws regarding …" is outside the authority of POTUS. Clinton and Trump have both vowed to use Executive Privilege to either create law or amend existing law, which would be illegal. Regarding this, it is clear to me that neither candidate has it in mind to uphold and defend the Constitution and, thus, neither has my support.

This reason, alone, is enough to disqualify both—and should. However, the American people (both parties) have no intent on securing their freedoms. Instead, both sides are working overtime to reduce those freedoms, and the candidates are playing to the fears of their constituency.

A good, strong candidate would be working to unite both parties rather than serving to continue their division. The name-calling we can see in both party's debates should make it clear to Americans that the candidates at large are more interested in grand-standing than leading. This is a power play, and nothing more.

Since November 2016, I have tried to live my life without politics or football, and it has been the most peaceful time of my life.
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
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2016-03-03, 20:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
Just returned from my caucus. I was the only person who showed up from my precinct, so by unanimous vote I'm the precinct delegate to the county convention in three weeks.
Cool! I hope you go to the county convention and tell us about what happened there.
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2016-03-03, 21:11

Well, things are certainly getting exciting in the Republican universe! I can picture Romney and other GOP party leaders convening in back rooms to discuss how to take down Trump. Perhaps as a group, they came up with Romney's speech against Trump today.

It seems possible that at the very least they will try to bring about a brokered convention by combining all the electoral college votes massed by candidates "other than Trump" to try to come up with a party nominee "other than Trump."

Romney says he doesn't intend to run, but he would be so much better a candidate than Trump, in terms of the sheer decency and decorum that people generally hope to find in the occupant of the Oval Office.

As has been obvious for some time, Trump acts like a low-class person, perhaps because he *is* one. He didn't have to act that way, but I guess that's the kind of behavior he was raised around, and so that's how he conducts himself. He should have gone to finishing school, to learn some manners and how to act like a person with class.

I guess such schools, if they still exist, are, or were once, found in Europe, maybe Switzerland; and are/were intended for young girls as they headed into their teen years, to be taught how to conduct themselves like young women with class. Too bad such a school was not available to Trump as a young teen.

I can't imagine how the Republican convention will be. If they do try to keep Trump from being the party's nominee, God only knows what Trump will do and say in response. I even heard commentators saying GOP leaders might try to lock Trump out of the convention! Holy moly!
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