[Windswept]

Crime is certainly a problem everywhere. God knows, we have our share here in the US. But since I live here, I generally know how to avoid acting in a manner likely to put myself at risk of becoming a crime victim.

For one thing, I'm extremely alert and wary, and find this general awareness quite effective in avoiding problems altogether. However, I'm not sure how skilled I would be at staying safe in another country.

So, I would like to ask our British members, or people who have spent time in England and Scotland in the last few years, just what one should do to stay safe as a visitor over there.

For a three-week stay involving a fair amount of traveling, would it be better to rent a car, or get a BritRail pass and stick to train travel?

That is, would it be safer to travel by train than to have a rental car that might get stolen? Just how bad is the car theft problem in England and Scotland?

I think having a rental car would be the most convenient mode of traveling, but if car theft is a common problem, that would be something I just wouldn't want to have to worry about.

I did some googling, and the articles I read inspired me to ask the questions I'm asking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1599023.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1091984.stm

I know Hassan has had trouble hanging on to his bicycles, *and* has been mugged. So I was also wondering if assault and mugging of tourists seems to be a common problem, especially small female ones who would make an easy victim.

I know these may seem like ridiculous, and maybe even insulting, questions. But after googling a few topics along these lines, I started feeling a bit less confident about traveling on my own over there.

I would really, really hate to have a rental car stolen. What a nightmare that would be. And the insurance for theft coverage seems outrageously expensive for rental vehicles.

So, rental car or train, or a combination of the two? I hope someone can give me some advice. Thanks in advance.

[Stone Of Love]

I think you are wise to ask. I was very close to being assualted last year on a tube ride by 5 youths. kept my mouth shut, and let them run theirs. Not sure if that helped or if they were just all talk. But they took off after a couple of stops.

As for driving, can't say I have tried to drive on the wrong side of the road, but I'm sure that would also present a challenge.

Have a great trip. I'm sure it will go fine.

[turbulentfurball]

I'd stick with the train if I were you, but mainly to avoid driving on the 'wrong' side of the road. I wouldn't rent a car that drove on the right if I went to continental Europe or the States because I know I'd muck something up somewhere.

I really do think that you don't have much to worry about with regard to crime. I'd just do as much as possible to avoid being seen as an obvious tourist; i.e. keep your camera out of sight unless you're using it.

Also, those articles are 5 and 6 years old respectively. I had a look for some recent(ish) government crime statistics, and I've found this, which may be of some help.

Finally, if you do visit Scotland, I'd advise you not to say how much you loved England to any of the locals, or wear a shirt with an English flag on it, or anything similar; a drunken idiot may slur something offensive at you. (I'm being deadly serious)

[mattf]

I think it depends a lot on where you're going. However, I wouldn't worry unduly about car theft in the UK (unless you're thinking of spending 3 weeks in Birkenhead or Moss Side (an area of Manchester)). Personally, I'd be more prone to worrying about the car being broken into to gain items inside the vehicle. Though, again, this depends a lot on where you're going. The important part is to remember not to leave valuables lying around in the car.

As for train travel, I wouldn't recommend it. It may have its benefits, in that you don't have to worry about your car and you get to meet people, but it also has its cons, most of them stemming from the atrocious railway system we still have over here. I still find the majority of trains to be late, over-crowded, slow and expensive (although, obviously, if you're buying a rail pass you know what the cost is up-front). Also, while main-line trains may have improved in terms of cleanliness and facilities, smaller rural trains haven't. Also you are limited in terms of destinations.

Do you have a rough idea of your itinerary? If not, anything you'd particularly like to do / see? Are you most likely to be staying in cities or travelling through the country? Are you planning on spending any length of time in London? (I wouldn't bother with hiring a car for the duration of your stay in that place). All of these questions could heavily influence your decision.

I'm going to disagree with turbulentfurball on one thing. I don't think driving on the correct side ( ) of the road will be a problem for you. The biggest problem for most Americans is manual transmission, but I think you've said before that you've driven manual in the past?

However, I will agree with Bryan on the Scotland thing. As an Englishman who's spent half of his life living (on and off) in Scotland, do watch what you say about England / The English when you're in Scotland. Most Scots are wonderfully generous (despite all the rumours ) and most are jovial in their attacks on we sassenachs, but there are some idiots out there who really do still hold a genuine grudge over Culloden. If in doubt, call the English "those Southern wankers" and all should be good

I think the most important thing to say in respect to your question is get good travel insurance and don't worry about it when you're over here - just enjoy the visit. Most of us are lovely. Really.

[Dorian Gray]

Hi Windswept,

With the exception of the really awful but extremely rare crimes like rape, I think women get away with less aggro than men in the UK. Any hassle is usually drink-related and aimed at young men by other young men. Having said that, I've lived in London (worst place in the UK for crime) for a handful of years on and off, and I've never had a single thing stolen, never been attacked and never been physically threatened. And I've made way too many unwise walks through rough areas at three in the morning, last train rides to Barking, etc. I had more problems in Belfast (including unprovoked assault requiring hospital treatment, but I still love Belfast!) and Brazil (quite a few physical fights, a lot of theft, and too many pretty girls to choose from!). So my general impression is that crime isn't something that really prevents many people enjoying their lives in the UK. In all honesty, the chances of witnessing violent crime while in the UK on holiday must be vanishingly small.

Having driven a car on the "wrong" side of the road in Finland, I must say I found it difficult. Physically driving a car from the other seat and changing gears with the wrong hand isn't as difficult as it might sound, but remembering what to do at every junction and roundabout, while trying to make sense of strange signs and road markings, and driving an unfamiliar car, can be quite trying. And Finland has wide open roads with very little traffic and good drivers. The UK has narrow, badly-surfaced roads with poor street-lighting, a truly shocking amount of traffic per mile of road, and is filled with drivers who got their licence in a lucky dip. Statistically, UK drivers are 4x safer than French drivers, but French drivers are honestly impossibly bad and their cars are ancient rust-buckets! In the UK the government has realised they can extract more money from drivers by charging massive amounts of money for an annual road-worthiness test which is the strictest in the world, so the cars are good. But the drivers are stupid.

Personally, I would not want to drive in London. Unless you're an extremely confident and experienced city driver, and you want to view driving as a challenge, I would recommend you take the train. Rail in the UK is improving slowly after decades of underfunding, but it's fairly usable by now. You'll probably experience the odd delay, and trains are certainly overcrowded at rush hour, but as a tourist these problems may not matter so much. The price, while outrageously expensive (most expensive in the world?), will be much less than renting a car and feeding it fuel at ~£1/litre and paying the £8/day Congestion Charge. Everything is outrageously expensive in the UK, and especially London. Unlike, say, Switzerland, this is not because we earn obscene amounts of money, but because the government taxes everything to death and companies price-gouge us because we're a nation of complainers who never actually get around to doing anything to fix the problem. Just be warned that your dollars won't go far.

Hmm… What a glowing recommendation! To be honest, there's no easy thing to pinpoint that's very attractive about the UK compared to other places in the world. The people are generally cold (less so outside big cities, and not at all in places like Northern Ireland), the weather isn't great, public services are pretty poor, food is crap or extremely expensive, vast swathes of the country are about as culturally sophisticated as a low-fat yoghurt, etc. Brits work the longest hours in Europe (though I think they're still trailing the US in that respect so it may look normal to an American), yet get paid poorly unless they're well educated and well-connected, in which case they get paid far too much, making it look like the country is wealthy (while in reality there are 3x more people below the poverty line than in France). Before Labour came to power there wasn't even a minimum wage, and today it's still a joke: less than £5 in some cases, I believe.

Good points: second-best pubs in the world (after Ireland), fascinating history, London is statistically the world's most multicultural city so all the benefits that brings, some interesting modern architecture and beautiful cathedrals across the country, truly amazing art scene in London, thriving fashion scene, lots of music innovation. London is a fun place for many reasons, but the overall quality of life that most people "enjoy" is way worse than almost anywhere else in Europe and poles apart from places like Spain or Italy.

Hope you don't become as bitter as this guy who talks about London from an American perspective. (Great read, by the way.)

[mattf]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray The UK has narrow, badly-surfaced roads with poor street-lighting, a truly shocking amount of traffic per mile of road, and is filled with drivers who got their licence in a lucky dip. Everything is outrageously expensive in the UK, and especially London. To be honest, there's no easy thing to pinpoint that's very attractive about the UK compared to other places in the world. The people are generally cold the weather isn't great public services are pretty poor food is crap or extremely expensive vast swathes of the country are about as culturally sophisticated as a low-fat yoghurt

Jeepers, Dorian, do you work for the Tourist Information Service, per chance?

[Dorian Gray]

The thing is, I actually like London, maybe because I enjoy the things London can offer such as art and music. There's an energy about the place that's a bit addictive. But some things really annoy me about England, or London at least. People are just so much less friendly than in other parts of the world. Bus drivers and supermarket check-out workers rarely make eye contact and hardly ever chat. Nobody chats. I'm not one of those annoying people that insists on non-stop conversation with everyone within earshot, but it's definitely nice to be able to crack a one-off joke about some trivial event just witnessed and get a response. In London, good luck trying to talk to anyone you don't personally know!

A couple of examples. I was in Canary Wharf (a well-to-do business centre in London) the other day meeting someone, and not knowing my way around the place I asked a suited gentleman where I could get the Docklands Light Railway. With perceptible irritation he pointed across the water and named a station, so I naturally asked how I could get there. He told me, briefly with great impatience, but the whole endeavour left me with a bad taste for at least five minutes. Why the hell is it such a big deal to tell someone directions? In Belfast the stranger would walk you to the station or offer you a lift. I'm not kidding either.

At Christmas a friend of mine who lives in London went to Belfast. He went into a card shop, selected a Christmas card which was in a rack marked "on sale", and went up to the counter to pay. As he was opening his wallet he remarked, more for confirmation than as a question, "the cards are on sale?" The girl at the counter replied in a deadpan voice, "all of them except that one". Oh no! A shopkeeper made eye contact with a customer, and then joked with him!!! I'm fairly confident such a thing has never happened in the history of London shopping.

[AWR]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray The UK has ... badly-surfaced roads ... and is filled with drivers who got their licence in a lucky dip. Sounds like the U.S.; I don't think she'll notice. Hope you don't become as bitter as this guy who talks about London from an American perspective. (Great read, by the way.)

I only read the first one - pretty amusing. The slight majority of my friends here in Confoederatio Helvetica are Brits of various persuasions, and they pretty much sum it up - the good, the bad and the ugly - as you have. Certainly, it the rare bird who has returned willingly. But I think living in a place and travelling there are two different things. There are a lot of great places to go off the beaten track in the UK and they are wonderful. Also, London and Manchester are big, hip cities, with great cultural attractions.

Aside: It looks like Dorian's exams are over. Trust they went well.

Edit: This blurb from DG's link gave me a chuckle:

"Expressing any degree of politeness to a Londoner can be hazardous. As I was walking up the escalator on my way out of a tube station one evening, I happened to brush against a man who was standing quite far over to the left (Stand to the Right the signs say). I said, “Excuse me mate, sorry about that.” and received the cheery reply, “Fuck-you! I’ll fucking kill you outside!” Charming."

[Dorian Gray]

I have my last exam tomorrow. So much for avoiding this place to revise!

The same American-in-London who made that blog also made the following site which gives an insight into his troubles. Seems like his American girlfriend got a place in Oxford University and he decided to tag along with her. When they got to England she dropped him for someone else and he still hasn't got over it years later. He has some decent photos and angst-ridden poems (fairly good actually) here.

What's the betting he loved England before she dumped him? The best way to appreciate a new culture is to fall in love with a local! Maybe that's my problem: I've never fallen in love with a fair English lass.

[kretara]

Sorry Carol. I don't have much advice for England, I have not been there.
I've been to Holland (one of the best places on earth), Germany, France, Greece, Turkey, Malta and Italy and have never felt threatned (apart from the airport in Instanbul-its like a war zone there) or had any issues (apart from drunk Frenchies yelling at me because I was American).

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray The thing is, I actually like London, maybe because I enjoy the things London can offer such as art and music. There's an energy about the place that's a bit addictive. But some things really annoy me about England, or London at least. People are just so much less friendly than in other parts of the world. Bus drivers and supermarket check-out workers rarely make eye contact and hardly ever chat. Nobody chats. I'm not one of those annoying people that insists on non-stop conversation with everyone within earshot, but it's definitely nice to be able to crack a one-off joke about some trivial event just witnessed and get a response. In London, good luck trying to talk to anyone you don't personally know! A couple of examples. I was in Canary Wharf (a well-to-do business centre in London) the other day meeting someone, and not knowing my way around the place I asked a suited gentleman where I could get the Docklands Light Railway. With perceptible irritation he pointed across the water and named a station, so I naturally asked how I could get there. He told me, briefly with great impatience, but the whole endeavour left me with a bad taste for at least five minutes. Why the hell is it such a big deal to tell someone directions? In Belfast the stranger would walk you to the station or offer you a lift. I'm not kidding either.

Life is much the same over here. I had way too many experiences like this in Boston and New York.
I lived in an apartment in the West Roxbury section of Boston for 2 years (8 years total in Boston), the street was a short street of 5 2-family houses. Not a single neighbor would talk to each other, hell, they barely would make eye contact. I made the mistake of saying 'Hi' to one of my neighbors (50ish woman) as she was coming home from her daily walk. She looked at me like I was going to rape her and practically ran back to her house. She got her husband out of the house and I could see them talking to each other and staring at me. If looks could kill I would be dead.

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray At Christmas a friend of mine who lives in London went to Belfast. He went into a card shop, selected a Christmas card which was in a rack marked "on sale", and went up to the counter to pay. As he was opening his wallet he remarked, more for confirmation than as a question, "the cards are on sale?" The girl at the counter replied in a deadpan voice, "all of them except that one". Oh no! A shopkeeper made eye contact with a customer, and then joked with him!!! I'm fairly confident such a thing has never happened in the history of London shopping.

This sounds like stories my wife has been telling her family about living in Little Rock, Ar. We moved here a few years ago (I'm from there, my wife is from New England) and my wife was stunned by how nice people are here. She has now talked her sister into moving her family from New England to here because of how nice everyone is and how nice it is in general to live here.

[wecallitfall]

England is the same as any other country;

i.e. take care, think, don't be rash, be friendly and you'll be ok



the only people bothered about crime anyway are people who read the Daily Mail - english people will know what i mean

[mattf]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray I'm fairly confident such a thing has never happened in the history of London shopping.

Well that's London, innit?

I worked in London for a few long months. I've never felt so out of touch with humanity as I did when surrounded by all those people. And the worst part is that it's infectious. I found myself being (more than usually) sullen and ignoring people. I was so glad to move away from there and come back to the Borders where it's not only allowed, but often encouraged, to stop in the street and have a chin-wag with somebody you've never met before. True enough, you'll inevitably find yourself talking about rugby or the fact that the nearest supermarket, 30 miles away, is currently operating out of a portacabin, but it's still a pleasant thing.

Windswept, just remember. The negativity you see from all us Brits about our countries is ingrained from birth. But we'll still be glad to take your cash from youwelcome you to our beautiful isle.

EDIT: Forgot the winky. Ahem

[turbulentfurball]

I've got to agree with mattf and Dorian Gray with regard to London. While it is a beautiful and multicultural city, it does at times seem impersonal due to the sheer number of people that live and/or work there. More people live in London than in all of Scotland. There seems to be an air of hesitancy throughout the city; everyone is rushing from one place to another with little or no regard for other people. On my first visit to London I made the grave error of standing on the wrong side of an escalator while ascending from a tube station, only to be shouted at by a man-in-a-suit 'Stand on the fucking right!'. Gee. Thanks for the welcome, buddy!

[Hassan i Sabbah]

I spend my whole time complaining about London, but I do stuff here I couldn't really do anywhere else. But Britain is rubbish. I'm talking about moving to Buenos Aires for a few months, and I'm semi-serious.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by Stone Of Love I think you are wise to ask. I was very close to being assualted last year on a tube ride by 5 youths. kept my mouth shut, and let them run theirs. Not sure if that helped or if they were just all talk. But they took off after a couple of stops.

Yikes! That's just the sort of thing that freaks me out.

I *never* take public transportation where I live (though I'd *like* to); but the one time I 'did' a few years back when my car was in the shop, I observed that the other bus riders were a pretty rough lot.

Were you traveling at night or during the day? Was the car fairly empty at the time?

I guess you lucked out, huh? Geez.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by turbulentfurball I really do think that you don't have much to worry about with regard to crime. I'd just do as much as possible to avoid being seen as an obvious tourist; i.e. keep your camera out of sight unless you're using it.

Okay. Sounds like a plan. Though I have the feeling that I'll look like a wide-eyed American from a mile away.

Also, those articles are 5 and 6 years old respectively. I had a look for some recent(ish) government crime statistics, and I've found this, which may be of some help.

Thanks. I'll check that out.

Finally, if you do visit Scotland, I'd advise you not to say how much you loved England to any of the locals, or wear a shirt with an English flag on it, or anything similar; a drunken idiot may slur something offensive at you. (I'm being deadly serious)

Yikes! Okay, gotcha. And that's just the sort of thing I *would* say. "Oh, I just 'loved' the south coast!" ...in an exuberant voice.

[daibach]

Windswept,

Go for it! I live in London (have done for 20 years) but I travel a lot on business - I'm currently posting this from New York!

In my opinion the UK is as safe as any other "civilized" country and London as safe as any big city (like here in New York). It's all relative.

Looks like you're on the west coast of the USA - how would you feel about visiting Chicago, Miami or New York?

In my 20 years of living in London and 40 years living in the UK I don't know of anyone who has had their car stolen.

Just be street wise and aware of what's going on around you and you'll be fine.

Londoners do have a reputation of being a bit 'cold' and unfriendly, but I guess that's just our way of dealing with the hectic lives we live! Trust me, people will always be happy to help if you have any problems.

You mentioned London and Scotland. Are those your only locations or are you planning on travelling around the rest of the UK? You don't need a car in London - public transport is great, if a little antiquated! But you will need a car for travelling around the UK outside of London. You could always fly up to Scotland (there are plenty of cheap flights) and then hire a car to drive around Scotland.

The great thing about travelling is meeting other people and experiencing other cultures. You'll feel like a fish out of water for the first few days, but once you get the hang of things (and the strange way we speak) you'll feel right at home!

Dai.

P.S. I'm originally from Wales and not the least bit offended by you not thinking of visiting there! ;-)

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by mattf I think it depends a lot on where you're going. However, I wouldn't worry unduly about car theft in the UK (unless you're thinking of spending 3 weeks in Birkenhead or Moss Side (an area of Manchester)). Personally, I'd be more prone to worrying about the car being broken into to gain items inside the vehicle. Though, again, this depends a lot on where you're going. The important part is to remember not to leave valuables lying around in the car.

Okay, that sounds pretty reassuring, Matt. I never leave valuables lying in plain sight in my car anyway, so that habit is already soundly ingrained.

As for train travel, I wouldn't recommend it. It may have its benefits, in that you don't have to worry about your car and you get to meet people, but it also has its cons, most of them stemming from the atrocious railway system we still have over here. I still find the majority of trains to be late, over-crowded, slow and expensive (although, obviously, if you're buying a rail pass you know what the cost is up-front). Also, while main-line trains may have improved in terms of cleanliness and facilities, smaller rural trains haven't. Also you are limited in terms of destinations.

Doesn't it make much difference if a person buys a First Class ticket then? I was sort of hoping that first class would be considerably better, but maybe not.

Do you have a rough idea of your itinerary? If not, anything you'd particularly like to do / see? Are you most likely to be staying in cities or travelling through the country? Are you planning on spending any length of time in London? (I wouldn't bother with hiring a car for the duration of your stay in that place). All of these questions could heavily influence your decision.

Well, I've really wanted to spend some time on the south coast, Devon, Cornwall, and I just had the feeling that having a small car would provide the easiest access to such places. Is that fairly correct, would you say?

Then I'll work my way up the country. I was thinking of getting the rental car at Heathrow and then just immediately leaving the London area until 'later' in my trip, presuming that I might have figured out how to drive by then.

I'm going to disagree with turbulentfurball on one thing. I don't think driving on the correct side ( ) of the road will be a problem for you. The biggest problem for most Americans is manual transmission, but I think you've said before that you've driven manual in the past?

Yes, two-thirds of my driving career was on manual. I do feel a little queasy at the thought of using my left hand though. I mean, shifting is normally such an automatic thing (haha, no pun intended ); but I think my left hand will just seem like an idiot child when it comes to shifting. I guess I'll be finding out, won't I.

However, I will agree with Bryan on the Scotland thing. As an Englishman who's spent half of his life living (on and off) in Scotland, do watch what you say about England / The English when you're in Scotland. Most Scots are wonderfully generous (despite all the rumours ) and most are jovial in their attacks on we sassenachs, but there are some idiots out there who really do still hold a genuine grudge over Culloden. If in doubt, call the English "those Southern wankers" and all should be good

Okay, this point is becoming very clear to me. I feel certain that I'll be able to keep this in mind. Of course, after a few drinks at the pub... ... who knows *what* I might say.

I think the most important thing to say in respect to your question is get good travel insurance and don't worry about it when you're over here - just enjoy the visit. Most of us are lovely. Really.

I'm *sure* that's true, Matt.

[GSpotter]

Originally Posted by Windswept Yes, two-thirds of my driving career was on manual. I do feel a little queasy at the thought of using my left hand though.

When visiting Australia, we rented a Bushcamper (i.e. a Toyota Landcruiser with manual transmission, transformed into a camper). After a short time, shifting with the left hand worked rather well.

I remember the last comment of the rental car agent when we left the station: "When turning, you will activate the wipers! - But that's normal!". And even though I tried to avoid it - when turning into the street, I switched on the wipers instead of the left turn signal...

All in all, the driving on the other side wasn't much of a problem. But after coming back home, I had to switch back again - which was less easy than I expected. The first time, I drove on the wrong side of the street for some hundred meters (luckily our street didn't have much traffic then...)

[drewprops]

A lot of larger cities provide a GIS service with data for taxes, property lines, streets, etcetera. Some of them also provide crime stats in a similar closed-technology presentation...

I know that there are a lot of overlays out there for Google Earth, does anyone know if there are any crime stat overlays for it? That would be really keen.

[RowdyScot]

Windswept, I'll add in...the anti-English sentiment in Scotland is even more prominent in the Highlands.

[scratt]

Seems like most people have got this covered for you Carol..

My 2c...

In London do not rent a car, use public transport. Assume London has the same problems as New York.. Mugging late at night, but not too bad in the day as long as you are sensible etc. Use decent hotels, real black cabs, and the Underground (Tube). Stay in central London as a general rule, unless with people you know and trust.

Outside of London do not use the trains ever, hire a car.
Crime is quite low outside of London and other well known cities (Manchester, Liverpool etc.), unless you leave stuff exposed in your car and then you'll get broken windows and the stuff nicked. We don't throw you in gaol for speeding, but traffic cops are arrogant and typically unfriendly pigs in the UK.

Take out a loan to cover your petrol bills if you plan to drive far.. If you think gas is expensive in the US you are in for a shock! But then our national rail network tickets cost more than airline tickets..

Food is indeed pretty crap, whether it is expensive or not.

Drinking and eating out in London is probably more expensive than in Tokyo.

In fact everything is expensive, and English people hate being approached, especially by loud, happy and friendly Americans who learn and use your name instantly and repeatedly, when we can't even remember yours.. Try not to let it hurt your feelings.

Other than that it's great.. Enjoy..

[turbulentfurball]

Originally Posted by scratt Take out a loan to cover your petrol bills if you plan to drive far.. If you think gas is expensive in the US you are in for a shock!

I paid £1 per litre for some standard unleaded in a little place just outside Aberdeen yesterday. It's appalling. Just to emphasize what scratt said, be in for a huge shock.

[mattf]

Originally Posted by Windswept Doesn't it make much difference if a person buys a First Class ticket then? I was sort of hoping that first class would be considerably better, but maybe not.

Well it certainly doesn't help with the lateness or slowness and especially not the price!

Originally Posted by Windswept Well, I've really wanted to spend some time on the south coast, Devon, Cornwall, and I just had the feeling that having a small car would provide the easiest access to such places. Is that fairly correct, would you say?

Oh, definitely. There's so much to see in those areas and most of it only accessible by car.

Originally Posted by Windswept Then I'll work my way up the country. I was thinking of getting the rental car at Heathrow and then just immediately leaving the London area until 'later' in my trip, presuming that I might have figured out how to drive by then.

All in all, a good plan, but NOTHING in the UK prepares you for driving in London. NOT ONE THING.

Originally Posted by RowdyScot Windswept, I'll add in...the anti-English sentiment in Scotland is even more prominent in the Highlands.

I find it more prevalent in the West - When I lived in Dunoon, it became commonplace to hear "I'm not racist - I just hate the English". Of course, the Highlanders hate sassenachs, which not only covers the English, but the Lowlanders too

Honestly though, Carol, despite everything that Bryan, RowdyScot and I have said, it's not like you're guaranteed to get lynched if you say that you like Cornwall when you're in Scotland. You just have to be a wee bit careful from time to time.

Originally Posted by scratt English people hate being approached, especially by loud, happy and friendly Americans who learn and use your name instantly and repeatedly, when we can't even remember yours.. Try not to let it hurt your feelings.

That's just about the best advice in this thread.

Originally Posted by Windswept Also, those articles are 5 and 6 years old respectively. I had a look for some recent(ish) government crime statistics, and I've found this, which may be of some help. Thanks. I'll check that out.

Also, Scotland's official crime statistics (Scotland having its own judicial system)

[mattf]

Originally Posted by turbulentfurball I paid £1 per litre for some standard unleaded in a little place just outside Aberdeen yesterday. It's appalling. Just to emphasize what scratt said, be in for a huge shock.

Absolutely, the price is especially high in rural areas (like Cornwall, Devon, 90% of Scotland)

For an idea of average prices in the UK, take a look at

http://www.petrolprices.com/

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray Hi Windswept, With the exception of the really awful but extremely rare crimes like rape, I think women get away with less aggro than men in the UK. Any hassle is usually drink-related and aimed at young men by other young men.

Okay, thanks for making this distinction. I really do appreciate the perspective that 'qualifying' remarks can cast on mere statistics. I think the 'sweet/mild' demeanor that I'm fairly sure I project will help keep me from provoking the kinds of assaultive behaviors you mention.

Having said that, I've lived in London (worst place in the UK for crime) for a handful of years on and off, and I've never had a single thing stolen, never been attacked and never been physically threatened. And I've made way too many unwise walks through rough areas at three in the morning, last train rides to Barking, etc.

This is *very* good to know. Thanks for being explicit.

I had more problems in Belfast (including unprovoked assault requiring hospital treatment, but I still love Belfast!) and Brazil (quite a few physical fights, a lot of theft, and too many pretty girls to choose from!).

heh. ~ When I was riding a city bus in Rio one afternoon, I saw a dead body lying in the gutter in a nice oceanfront area of downtown. But I never felt personally at risk or scared at all when I was in Brazil.

So my general impression is that crime isn't something that really prevents many people enjoying their lives in the UK. In all honesty, the chances of witnessing violent crime while in the UK on holiday must be vanishingly small.

Glad to hear it.

Having driven a car on the "wrong" side of the road in Finland, I must say I found it difficult. Physically driving a car from the other seat and changing gears with the wrong hand isn't as difficult as it might sound, but remembering what to do at every junction and roundabout, while trying to make sense of strange signs and road markings, and driving an unfamiliar car, can be quite trying.

Yes, exactly. Those critical moments can be extremely stressful for the driver, who has to figure out indecipherable signs and make split-second directional decisions, all while fumbling with unfamiliar vehicle equipment. If the traffic is heavy, and chock full of impatient, hostile drivers, the experience can be horrific! eek!

And Finland has wide open roads with very little traffic and good drivers. The UK has narrow, badly-surfaced roads with poor street-lighting, a truly shocking amount of traffic per mile of road, and is filled with drivers who got their licence in a lucky dip.

Oh, Dorian, I am fairly chomping at the bit to be savoring these roadway delights.

Statistically, UK drivers are 4x safer than French drivers, but French drivers are honestly impossibly bad and their cars are ancient rust-buckets! In the UK the government has realised they can extract more money from drivers by charging massive amounts of money for an annual road-worthiness test which is the strictest in the world, so the cars are good. But the drivers are stupid.

Well, according to 'very' recent statistics, I seem to find myself driving cheek by jowl with some of the most rude, rage-filled drivers in America (all recent arrivals from California, no doubt ); so perhaps I've had 'some' practice at dealing with scary drivers. haha

Personally, I would not want to drive in London. Unless you're an extremely confident and experienced city driver, and you want to view driving as a challenge, I would recommend you take the train.

Okay, I guess driving in London is a bad idea. Though I have to say that the way my mind works is that the 'minute' someone tells me I *shouldn't* do something, that immediately becomes a challenge, and becomes something I VERY much want to try doing. Tsk. It must be some kind of sickness, or something.

Rail in the UK is improving slowly after decades of underfunding, but it's fairly usable by now. You'll probably experience the odd delay, and trains are certainly overcrowded at rush hour, but as a tourist these problems may not matter so much.

Well, if I get the rental car, then I guess I won't be doing 'any' travel by train; which makes me sad, because I have long dreamt of traveling by rail in England. I think it's a result of watching all those Sherlock Holmes, Poirot, and Miss Marple episodes.

You'll laugh when I tell you that these programs long caused me to fantasize that today's England was a country still partially lodged in a gentle past; and that when I saw a film with a more 'current-time' setting, I was shocked to realize that: "Oh my god! They're all using cell phones!" Forgive me for being such an idiot.

The price, while outrageously expensive (most expensive in the world?), will be much less than renting a car and feeding it fuel at ~£1/litre and paying the £8/day Congestion Charge. Everything is outrageously expensive in the UK, and especially London. Unlike, say, Switzerland, this is not because we earn obscene amounts of money, but because the government taxes everything to death and companies price-gouge us because we're a nation of complainers who never actually get around to doing anything to fix the problem. Just be warned that your dollars won't go far.

I have long wondered how people with fairly ordinary jobs could afford to live comfortably in London. But, honestly, I guess *not* having huge monthly car payments, and all the related expenses that go with owning a car, would allow people to hang onto a good portion of their disposable income.

Hmm… What a glowing recommendation! To be honest, there's no easy thing to pinpoint that's very attractive about the UK compared to other places in the world. The people are generally cold (less so outside big cities, and not at all in places like Northern Ireland),

Well, I don't think they're *actually* cold, are they? I mean, once you 'know' them, aren't they warm and friendly? I feel certain they must be.

the weather isn't great,

I get *sick* of the sun (out West) where I live. I literally want to punch it in the face for the entire five months of summer. On vacation, I sometimes go looking for fog and rain.

public services are pretty poor, food is crap or extremely expensive, vast swathes of the country are about as culturally sophisticated as a low-fat yoghurt, etc.

I just don't get the bad food thing. I mean, how hard is it to cook delicious food????

Brits work the longest hours in Europe (though I think they're still trailing the US in that respect so it may look normal to an American),

Ah, Dorian, the last time I checked with a British friend, he tallied up a total of something approaching *two months* per year of vacation time. Most Americans probably get two *weeks* off per year, IF they're lucky.

yet get paid poorly unless they're well educated and well-connected, in which case they get paid far too much, making it look like the country is wealthy (while in reality there are 3x more people below the poverty line than in France). Before Labour came to power there wasn't even a minimum wage, and today it's still a joke: less than £5 in some cases, I believe.

I think our minimum wage is around $5.75, but I could be wrong about that.

Good points: second-best pubs in the world (after Ireland), fascinating history,

Well, I guess it's the history that fascinates me, Dorian. Here, if a commercial building is 30 years old, it's torn down as blight. We 'did 'have some uninhabited, cool wooden farmhouses from the late 1800's around here; but basically the illegal aliens hiding in them, and building campfires on the wooden floors to cook their frijoles, have caused all those 'historic' buildings to burn down before the preservationists could get to them.

London is statistically the world's most multicultural city so all the benefits that brings, some interesting modern architecture and beautiful cathedrals across the country, truly amazing art scene in London, thriving fashion scene, lots of music innovation. London is a fun place for many reasons, but the overall quality of life that most people "enjoy" is way worse than almost anywhere else in Europe and poles apart from places like Spain or Italy.

A very interesting observation, Dorian. I'd feel worse for you guys if recently-released statistics hadn't shown that English people in their 50's were MUCH healthier than Americans of the same age. Everyone seemed mystified as to how this could be; but to me there's *no* mystery. You guys get two months per year vacation; 'we' get two weeks. To me, the whole answer lies there. *sigh*

Hope you don't become as bitter as this guy who talks about London from an American perspective. (Great read, by the way.)

I read quite a few of his commentaries, and plan to read more later. The very 'thought' of touching an English person's arm to get his/her attention now strikes sheer terror into my heart.




Edit: A note to admins. I had 27 smilies in this post, and had to spend half an hour going back through trying to get rid of them!!!!! *seethe*

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by GSpotter I remember the last comment of the rental car agent when we left the station: "When turning, you will activate the wipers! - But that's normal!". And even though I tried to avoid it - when turning into the street, I switched on the wipers instead of the left turn signal...

Funny.

All in all, the driving on the other side wasn't much of a problem. But after coming back home, I had to switch back again - which was less easy than I expected. The first time, I drove on the wrong side of the street for some hundred meters (luckily our street didn't have much traffic then...)

As I said, I had always driven a manual transmission; but when I got my current vehicle, I was advised to get an automatic since I thought I might be towing a travel trailer from time to time.

For 'months' in the new automatic, I would continually reach for the floor stick-shift and briefly panic when I couldn't find it.

[Moogs]

I would like to pipe in and ask if there are any places to be carefully avoided in Wales. I get the distinct impression there really aren't any but better to be sure. I figure if anywhere, maybe Newport or Cardiff have some questionable spots?

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by scratt Seems like most people have got this covered for you Carol.. My 2c... In London do not rent a car, use public transport. Assume London has the same problems as New York.. Mugging late at night, but not too bad in the day as long as you are sensible etc. Use decent hotels, real black cabs, and the Underground (Tube). Stay in central London as a general rule, unless with people you know and trust.

Okay, gotcha.

Outside of London do not use the trains ever, hire a car.

I am SO glad I started this thread. You guys have been *extremely* helpful in advising me about these crucial decisions. Seriously.

Crime is quite low outside of London and other well known cities (Manchester, Liverpool etc.), unless you leave stuff exposed in your car and then you'll get broken windows and the stuff nicked. We don't throw you in gaol for speeding, but traffic cops are arrogant and typically unfriendly pigs in the UK.

Okay, so I guess batting my eyelashes at traffic cops won't work then. (Makes a note in "Female-Wiles Day Planner". )

Take out a loan to cover your petrol bills if you plan to drive far.. If you think gas is expensive in the US you are in for a shock! But then our national rail network tickets cost more than airline tickets..

Wrt gas and distances, scratt, the weird thing is that I am so used to driving *vast* distances to get anywhere. I mean, literally, it takes me a full day and a half of driving to get to the capital city of an adjacent state (on interstate highways!). (And I drive fast! )

So, I have the feeling that cities will seem a lot closer together in England than they do out West here, and for that reason, daily gas consumption may 'seem' similar. Does that make sense?

Food is indeed pretty crap, whether it is expensive or not. Drinking and eating out in London is probably more expensive than in Tokyo.

Okay, but do people in London *actually* eat jellied eels ? That is my most pressing question. ...and should *I* (of the cowardly palate) try them (eels)?

In fact everything is expensive, and English people hate being approached, especially by loud, happy and friendly Americans who learn and use your name instantly and repeatedly, when we can't even remember yours.. Try not to let it hurt your feelings.

Alright, I feel properly chastened, scratt. The annoyance about 'the name thing' has come through pretty clearly in various British sit-coms/films over the last decade or so. The 'loud and obnoxious' thing too.

Though I will bear these cautions in mind, I'm afraid I'll just have to be 'myself'... (*not*, however, loud, obnoxious, too happy, or too familiar).

Other than that it's great.. Enjoy..

Will do! Thanks.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by Moogs I would like to pipe in and ask if there are any places to be carefully avoided in Wales. I get the distinct impression there really aren't any but better to be sure. I figure if anywhere, maybe Newport or Cardiff have some questionable spots?

Are you speaking about hostility caused by political unrest, Moogs?

Or just ordinary crime, like car theft, mugging, etc.?

Have you recently read a cautionary article that has prompted these questions, by any chance?