[psmith2.0]

I'm enjoying Gotham, the three episodes shown so far. I've never seen The OC or Southland, so I have nothing to compare this guy to (or none of the baggage that comes with it).

The only thing that seems a bit "off" or out-of-place is the Fish Mooney character, played by Jada Pinkett Smith. While the rest of the show seems somewhat grounded (as much as a story like this can be), she almost seems like she's channeling Eartha Kitt from the 60's Batman TV show...a little too broad, campy and scene-chewing. I kinda dread her scenes/dialog at this point, because it's just not all that believable. Or interesting.

And I can do without Gordon's fiancé, who brings nothing to the show (and doesn't seem all that warm or likable of a person, to boot).

I like that Oswald Cobblepot guy, and I think that actor is doing a neat take on someone we've only ever seen as a short, rotund "wack wack wack..." caricature (Burgess Meredith in the 60's and Danny DeVito in Batman Returns). But this guy is playing him as a geeky/emo genuine creepster and deviant (more like Heath Ledger's Joker vs. Jack Nicholson/Cesar Romero's). Every time they show his face and he's got that sinister, pervy "I'm thinking of something really awful right now" grin/smirk, I just cringe a little. I'm hoping they eventually turn him loose completely and let him go "full villain"...I'm sure it's building to that. I catch myself thinking "if Pee-wee Herman went completely nuts/evil, that's what it would look like...".

I like Gordon's shady partner sometimes...he has his moments, although sometimes he, too, is played a bit broad and obvious.

I like the portrayal of Alfred in this show (seems more from the Michael Caine "I was a hard-case military man in my past life, and I'm not shy about sharing my opinions" vs. "posh English butler" approach we've seen in other portrayals, like the Burton/Schumacher movies). And I also enjoy the little glimpses of Bruce looking like he's "figuring it out" (you can tell what he's going to grow up to be...a deranged, tortured vigilante who dresses up like a rodent and beats the shit out of thugs and lowlifes). He's already damaged and beyond help...and nobody around him realizes it, except maybe Selina. She witnessed what happened to Bruce's parents in that alley and saw Bruce's reaction. Plus, she's on her own as well, so she can relate or understand from that angle too.

I like about 75-80% of the show, but I can definitely do without a couple of the characters (and their plotlines/drama). I think just a bit of tightening-up/focus would make this into a really enjoyable, engaging show, start to finish.

Again, my favorite part is the awesome cityscape/skyline footage during the establishing shots. I don't know if it's an existing city, totally "as is", or if it's mostly an existing city augmented with CGI, or if it's 100% CGI...but it looks great when the camera flies and swoops about, or shows it from a distance, panning horizontally. It's weird to like a show based on the buildings/backgrounds, I realize...

[addabox]

I've only seen the pilot so far, but I saw an interesting article something to the effect that the premise is sort of unworkable:

This is pretty much the entire problem I have with the series' very concept. The story of Gotham starts with Batman because Gotham needs Batman. If you create a Gotham that can get along okay without Batman (which is pretty vital if the intent is not to have the heroes fail at every turn), then it can't possibly be a prequel leading up to the eventual debut of Batman, because with every positive resolution to a conflict on the show, Batman will be needed a little less. Take the Riddler for example; if the wacky ME does turn to crime in the course of the series and Gordon solves his riddles and catches him, then he doesn't need Batman for that. But if the wacky ME doesn't turn to crime in the course of the show, the implication for this version of Batman is even worse. If the Riddler pops up after Batman makes his debut, even though he'd been a law-abiding citizen this whole time, then it justifies and confirms the argument some cynical people have that the existence of Batman is what catalyzes the existence of his supervillains. So in that scenario, it would actually better for Gotham City if Batman didn't exist. So it's a clear Catch-22; if the Riddler (or any other super-villain) shows up in the show and they catch him without Batman, then they don't need Batman, but if a super-villain is teased and doesn't turn to crime until after Batman, then he's actively making things worse. There is simply no rational way for this series to lead to the existence of Batman, end of story.

Any sense yet of how they work around this? I can see it working for a while, but at some point you either start solving crimes and do yet-to-be Batman's work for him, or things just go to hell in a hand basket while the "heroes" of the show stand helplessly by. Or, I guess, you develop your marquee bad guys as kind of a parallel track, and spend time on, uh, "Balloon Man" and the like to give the cops something solid to do while Gotham slowly goes to hell, eventually requiring a Batman to step in.

[psmith2.0]

Hmmm. Never really thought of it like that.

I guess they should have these people already being bad villains, but the timeline might be too far off.

You have to factor in corruption (on both sides), too. The mob has a lot of cops and judges in their pocket. Or a lot of cops, if not actively "on the take", probably see the futility of trying to "do good" or do the right thing in that environment, and are reduced to just keeping their heads down, showing up and punching a clock and trying not to get killed before their retirement?

The biggest problem in Gotham City - this show and in other media - probably isn't the outlandish super-villains, but just the regular people...mobsters who control much of law enforcement, and the dirty cops who are part of all that and letting stuff get bad. The city seems kinda rough and corrupt right now, but I bet it's nothing like it's destined to be in another 10-15 years (TV time).

Someone like Batman comes along who, as shown in Batman Begins, and "don't play that" (and isn't capable of being "bought" - and also doesn't have to follow normal law enforcement rules and procedures - and throws a wrench into it all).

Bruce is a boy in this show, so any of the super-villain types he'd eventually face are probably a bit older than him. Maybe it's a slow-growing problem. Right now, nobody's who they're going to be. Cobblepot isn't the Penguin, Selina Kyle isn't full-on Catwoman, Nygma isn't the Riddler and Bruce certainly isn't Batman. In the coming 10-15 years, Bruce gets set in his ways, but so could Cobblepot and others. Something gradual and subtle often isn't noticed or viewed as a problem until it's too late. I guess at some point this Cobblepot guy "goes full arch criminal"? Same with Edward Nygma. I guess they just get warped and twisted over time, growing into the people they're going to become at roughly the same pace Bruce is?

This show can't count on sticking around for 10-15 years in real time to follow all this, so they'll probably opt to compress things a bit in future seasons (some shows do that...come back from summer break and 4-5 years have elapsed). Bruce is a teen, Gordon's got a little wear on his face and a cop mustache, Cobblepot and Nygma are a little nuttier than they were years before, etc?

They'll have to recast the younger players (Bruce and Selina) if they do this, finding appropriately-aged teens or 20-somethings if/when the time comes and that's how they want to do it. The adult cast can always be made to appear 5, 10 and 15 years older with a bit of wardrobe or subtle makeup work (I look basically the way I did at 30-35 as I do now, at 45...just a few more pounds, my temples are silvering and I've got some crinkles around my eyes. So it wouldn't anything drastic like trying to convey 50+ years passing.

I just assume that corruption grows and gets worse and worse, which leads to the other, more cartoon-y villains (Riddler, Penguin, etc.) feeling like the city is now "open season" ("the cops - the ones who aren't on the take and are halfway serious about their job - are worried about the hardcore organized crime element...they're not even focusing on weirdos like me!" and it all just reaches a huge breaking point?

I don't know how they handle it, other than to have Cobblepot and Nygma (and whoever else) soon start showing their true colors (but because they're so intelligent or protected, the police can't - or won't - do anything about it?

Bruce would be seeing all this, and combined with his already-set ideas on crime, justice, etc., he's going to realize "something has to be done". I just don't know if the show plans on sticking around long enough to ever show that? Smallville was the world's biggest nerd tease for years, finally paying off in a whole 2-3 seconds in the final scene of the final episode.

I think Gotham would work better if they advanced 5-6 years between each season. Fox/WB will know if they're renewed for another season or not while they're still working on the present season, so hopefully there's enough room to plan any sort of "final reveal" or finale that would show that (doesn't have to be as obvious as someone pulling on a pointy-eared cowl, but it could just be that famous scene of a bat flying into an open window and Bruce staring at it...fade to black. We got that sort of scene in Batman Begins, so a show like this (which may not be looking to become a run-of-the-mill "superhero" show), might choose to end it at that moment, knowing the audience is aware of what happens next.

I just think crime and corruption escalates more and more as Bruce ages...I don't think Batman "causes" anything, I just think things get out of hand until it's obvious something more than corrupt, lazy or indifferent cops is needed.

How they'll handle that is anyone's guess. If this show doesn't pull decent numbers and is only around for a single season, it won't matter anyway...

[709]

Don't discount the effect of Arkham Asylum.

Gotham is on the DVR still waiting to be watched, but just looking through the IMDB page it looks like this season is going all crime-bossy, what with Falcone and Maroni (and I assume Mooney is a gangster-type as well).

I could see Arkham being a major arc in season 2, with Amadeus Arkham's fall and his psychosis leading to some "experiments". Maybe Jonathan Crane and Harleen Quinzel show up as med students? Arkham has always been kind've a revolving door while Batman is around, maybe there's some darker and deeper Arkham factor that ties into why Gotham has so many friggin' weirdos.

Ooh! Take a few cues from the backstory as presented in A Serious House on Serious Earth. That would be fantastic. Plus it would add some neat foreshadowing (crazy mother being tortured by dreams of a bat). There's an opportunity to get Arkham's nephew in as a character too, as he eventually takes over the asylum, and his uncle is now a patient.

I don't know. The timing may be off for what slice of Bruce's life the story is going for, but I can think of worse things to be shoehorned in.

[psmith2.0]

Yeah, Fish Mooney is a gangster/club-owner. I think she's technically under Falcone (I think that's who she's had conversations with), but it's antagonistic and they're not friendly...more of "it's business", etc.

Yeah, there's been nothing flashy so far in the villain department...it's all mobsters/organized crime and street thugs so far. Nothing in it, despite the names of various characters, would ever let you know it's a comic/superhero-based thing. It plays more like a TV cop drama, with some weird, "did he just really do/say that?" touches.

[psmith2.0]

So...are there other Walking Dead watchers/fans here, or is it just me?

I can't wait...less than two hours to go. This wait has been so long, it seems like. What, 7-8 months? That final episode last winter was a brutal cliffhanger!

I've read in a couple of places that a certain character returns/factors in "in a big way" (and one writer referred to their "supreme badass-ness"), which makes me all kinds of happy...because it's my favorite character, hands-down! They get some of the best scenes/lines, it seems like. And is the one who seems to most convincingly straddle that line between heartbreak/despair and "we gotta do what we gotta do" (and does it). Awesome work by this actor.

I wouldn't like the show nearly as much as I do if [REDACTED] wasn't there. Can't wait to see this character again!

I'll reveal who it is later...don't wanna spoil anything for those looking to remain totally in the dark.

[psmith2.0]

Yep, my girl Carol saved everyone...she turned into Rambo for about 30 minutes. I love her even more now!

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Yep, my girl Carol saved everyone...she turned into Rambo for about 30 minutes. I love her even more now!

She's the best! That was a great episode, and I'm really glad I didn't turn off the TV as soon as the scenes from next week were over like I usually do.

And after the idiocy of the season finale of The Strain, it was great to see people (Carol) taking care of business.

[psmith2.0]

Haha...definitely. It was a much-needed palate cleanser after that goofiness from The Strain. It was so nice to see someone taking initiative, being smart, being quick and decisive when needed, not speech-making or explaining herself, etc. And that it was my favorite character, Carol, just made it all the better.

I think she's wonderful and has been my absolute favorite character to watch over the years. She was just so cool tonight, how she staged that assault, was taking all those precision shots, she put the walker blood/guts on her and just walked among all that craziness and kept her head the entire time. She was a woman on a mission.

To quote Private Hudson (Bill Paxton) from Aliens: "Why don't you put her in charge?!"

She's a cutie-pie too.

The episode itself was probably the most violent, gory one I've seen...especially the trough and that whole room/sequence. That really got under my skin, once it was crystal clear what was going on (I didn't wanna believe it, but...my gosh, it was crystal clear what/who Terminus was after tonight). I don't wanna see any baseball bats anytime soon, that's for sure. The makeup/effects work was really good (as always), but when I watched the encore showing, I muted the TV and played with my phone for 5-10 minutes during that part...I didn't wanna watch all that again. I can handle walkers getting killed in gross, violent ways (it's cartoonish and outlandish, and obvious makeup/prosthetics and even some nice CGI). But when it's human characters like those poor guys kneeling next to Glenn, that's quite unsettling. I still can't believe the stuff they get away with (and get aired), and the makeup/effects work they consistently pull off on a TV budget. Very impressive, and a lot of talented people working on this show.

[Naderfan]

She's my favorite too. She consistently seems to be the one who best understands that they're living in a whole new world and acts accordingly. Like when she was teaching the kids at the prison how to use weapons. Rick was wrong to freak out about that. Yeah, if this was just summer camp, of course that'd be an issue. But that really could have meant the difference between life and death for some of those kids. They need to know how to survive. I like how she's kept her humanity too though - she knows what needs to be done and she'll do it, but that doesn't mean she likes it or that she's just a killing machine now.

And yes, the trough scene was intense. Ick.

[psmith2.0]

Another good Walking Dead. A new character introduced, the return of someone I didn't think we'd see again so soon and a hell of a final 20 seconds! <-- pre-puke smiley

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Another good Walking Dead. A new character introduced, the return of someone I didn't think we'd see again so soon and a hell of a final 20 seconds! <-- pre-puke smiley

Yes! I've seen a number of people talk about how surprised they are at how fast this season is already moving and that's been my feeling too. I like it!

[psmith2.0]

The second half of last season was basically a TV version of The Lord of the Rings...a bunch of grungy, stringy-haired people endlessly walking through the woods with swords and arrow-based weapons, encountering the occasional scary creature and never quite getting to where they were going...just this long, drawn-out tease. I've come to absolutely despise those movies, so I was really getting worn out with a weekly dose of it.

Yeah, this season has kicked off with a bang and it's been very interesting and gripping so far (two whole episodes!). We'll see how it goes, but I hope it maintains this level of tense action, shocking moments and mystery (not quite sure what to make of Father Gabriel just yet). Much like The Shield and a few other shows I've enjoyed, the best part about The Walking Dead is the fact that nobody is safe. You watch most shows, and you have a pretty good sense of who's gonna be around at the very end. But this show has zero problem with killing off established, popular characters without batting an eye...that, for that reason alone, you watch it while a bit on edge the entire hour.

I don't wanna see anything bad or weird happen to Carol, Michonne or Daryl...but I know it very well could, at any time! That makes for good viewing.

[psmith2.0]

Just watched the season 5 mid-season finale of The Walking Dead. As is often the case, they hit you hard with some stuff.

Beth is gone, killed in the final minutes. I really came to like this character, so it's a bummer that she's no longer part of it. Watching the actress who played her, Emily Kinney, on Talking Dead was really nice. She choked up talking about her time on the show, but it was cute. She's adorable...big alien eyes and a pretty smile. Like Melissa McBride, she cleans up really nice. Not sure if anyone else here watches, so maybe I'm just talking to myself.

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Just watched the season 5 mid-season finale of The Walking Dead. As is often the case, they hit you hard with some stuff. Beth is gone, killed in the final minutes. I really came to like this character, so it's a bummer that she's no longer part of it. Watching the actress who played her, Emily Kinney, on Talking Dead was really nice. She choked up talking about her time on the show, but it was cute. She's adorable...big alien eyes and a pretty smile. Like Melissa McBride, she cleans up really nice. Not sure if anyone else here watches, so maybe I'm just talking to myself.

I gasped out loud when it happened.

I worried that she was a goner as soon as Maggie found out she was alive. No one seems allowed to be that happy in this show. But I thought when Dawn said "One of yours for one of mine," she was going to kill Beth as revenge for her officer, not believing the story that he got attacked by the walkers. So when that didn't happen, I actually started wondering if they were all actually going to make it out of there. But nope.

[psmith2.0]

Ooh, good point. I didn't think about that. She was just doing the swap one at a time, but yeah...that would've been a neat setup (but it would've gotten everyone in that hallway killed. I think the blame on this scenario is equally split between Dawn and Beth. Dawn went and loused up the deal by demanding Noah back. Rick responded correctly...that wasn't part of the deal, and Dawn's a jerk for adding that. Everyone was all set to go on their way. Beth let her anger and emotions get the best of her. She was nearly home-free, reunited with all the people she knew and cared about...but she had to get her little dig in. Even if Dawn hadn't reacted that way (the way she was shaking her head as if to say "it was an accident...I didn't mean it" made me think it was a reflex more than anything), if she'd stabbed an unarmed Dawn, the other cops would've opened up and killed Beth and her friends. So while it's sad to see the character go, I think her less-than-intelligent actions/approach here led to her death. Dawn started it all by demanding Noah, but Beth escalated it by attacking Dawn. I guess it's some sort of justice that the two who showed the least amount of impulse control were offed, sparing their friends a similar fate. Yeah, Maggie's reaction was heartbreaking, as was the shot of Daryl carrying Beth out.

[Naderfan]

I think that's what bothered me most about her death. In so many ways, it wasn't necessary or for any real reason. She just got hotheaded and ended up dead. I agree that Dawn shooting her was almost totally accidental/reflexive. Everyone was tensed and ready for something, and being stabbed, even if wasn't going to be a fatal wound, probably triggers a reaction (sorry for the pun). But I suppose that's realistic - not everyone dies a hero's death. Sometimes stupid/impulsive just kills you.

[psmith2.0]

Yep.

[turbulentfurball]

AN spoiler tags need to work on iOS *grumble*

[psmith2.0]

I never knew they didn't. Sorry. Here I was, doing the right, decent thing and making sure everything I wrote had them...but it shows up on your iPhone or iPad? That's no good.

[Naderfan]

Oh no! I'm sorry. That really sucks.

[zippy]

They do work if you set the style to AppleNova Pro 2.4 Retina. At least they do for me.

[drewprops]

I've had some spoilery stuff happen on here too from the version that I have on my phone

What the frack do we pay Brad for??

He takes off for MONTHS and half the shit around here doesn't even work right.

I demand a flippin' refund for my dues.

I can't even get my stupid Meadwad avatar working these days.



...

[kieran]

I don't think the spoiler tags have ever worked.

Hell, Brad posted about it 5 years ago.

Originally Posted by Brad RTFT. http://forums.applenova.com/showpost...1&postcount=39

[drewprops]

That's just like Brad to have posted about it 5 years ago.

Frickin' Brad.


...

[psmith2.0]

So, just when you think the whole prequel/origin story thing couldn't be more played-out and unasked-for, comes Krypton on Syfy. To tell us about Superman's father (and his father) on Krypton before it blowed up.

As if Smallville wasn't enough of a drawn-out, no-Superman-being-Superman tease...let's go back to pre-fetus Kal-El. Is that going to be the thing now? Take iconic characters known and loved by millions, wind the clock back and build a project around their complete absence in the thing?

Hawkman: Hatchling, next fall on ABC!

This is pretty much how you know they've worn the superhero/comic thing out...when they go dragging the parents and grandparents into it. We've already had The Waltons. We don't need it in space.

Is there a soul on the planet who gives an honest rip about such a project?

I don't know, I'm asking.

In a few hundred years, anthropologists and others will look back to this period and about the only thing they'll be able to say is "all these a-holes did, for about 20 years straight, was make movies about people in spandex and capes! And then, after a while, they started making them about people who knew the characters in spandex and capes."

[Frank777]

Come to think of it, Hawkman is really the only Justice Leaguer project left to be done, right?

[psmith2.0]

As of tonight, right now, yeah.

It'll probably get announced tomorrow (or they'll cram into into Batman v Superman to make sure the cast has its needed 42 leads).

[RowdyScot]

Not sure whether to post this in here or the movie thread, because it will have effects on both, but one of my two theories on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. for Skye turns out to be correct. Considering her character in the comics is currently an Avenger, wondering what Whedon's plans are for where it is going.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by RowdyScot Not sure whether to post this in here or the movie thread, because it will have effects on both, but one of my two theories on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. for Skye turns out to be correct. Considering her character in the comics is currently an Avenger, wondering what Whedon's plans are for where it is going.

Shhhh! I've finished season 1 but it'll be a few months before the current season shows up on Netflix.