[Partial]

Always tie your tie in a full windsor knot. It looks much better than a half-windsor (which I believe is what most people do that aren't experienced in tying ties). That's all.

Here's a really good video on the matter.

http://www.ehow.com/video_4957397_ti...dsor-knot.html

[PKIDelirium]

Clip-ons FTFW.

[Bryson]

Random, but agreed. Windsor FTW.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Partial Always tie your tie in a full windsor knot don't wear a tie. It looks much better than a half-windsor (which I believe is what most people do that aren't experienced in tying ties) wearing a tie. That's all.

Fixed.

[RowdyScot]

Originally Posted by Roboman Fixed.

Right on.

[SpecMode]

I'm glad that none of our uniforms have ties anymore. Our winter season working uniform used to require them, and I absolutely hated wearing it. It will not be missed.

[billybobsky]

I prefer the half-windsor given that is is generally much thinner than the full windsor...

[iFerret]

No. Just no.

No ties. When I have to wear a tie (that is everyday ) I make it up as I go along and I get a functional knot that looks different everyday. And it always looks good. More recently though I've settled on a modified four in hand style knot. It works, it's self releasing, it looks good.

I don't know. I've always felt the Windsor was compensating for something. Big tie knot = something lacking somewhere else.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by iFerret No. Just no. No ties. When I have to wear a tie (that is everyday ) I make it up as I go along and I get a functional knot that looks different everyday. And it always looks good. More recently though I've settled on a modified four in hand style knot. It works, it's self releasing, it looks good.

Again, fixed.

Originally Posted by iFerret I don't know. I've always felt the Windsor tie was compensating for something. Big tie knot long pointy length of fabric = something lacking somewhere else.

Think about it. (But don't think too, uh, hard.)

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Roboman Fixed.

I consider it a nice frill at my job that I don't have to wear a tie.

It's arguably the most useless piece of garment out there. And I will only wear it when I'm sure it's required.

[julesstoop]

Agreed 100% and am luckily in the same position. I actually refused a job once because ties were mandatory (in a call centre, for heavens sake..).

[Unch]

Originally Posted by Mugge I consider it a nice frill at my job that I don't have to wear a tie..

Originally Posted by julesstoop Agreed 100% and am luckily in the same position. I actually refused a job once because ties were mandatory (in a call centre, for heavens sake..).

Wearing a tie at school for 5 years was more than enough for a lifetime.

I've even got to the point now where I'm not interested in any job where I can't just wear what I want. I'm not in a customer facing role (and if I do meet customers I will naturally smarten up a bit), so there is very little point in "smart casual" for me. I just feel uncomfortable all day, and that impacts on my productivity.

[Iago]

Christ, is this what the world has come to? People bleating about businesswear being uncomfortable, unproductive, and, apparently, compensating for tiny penises? No doubt humvees, big houses, pretty spouses and successful careers do too.

At the risk of sounding like an utter popinjay, a good quality tie separates men from boys. There's an element of tradition to it, sure, but that doesn't mean it's bad per se. Ties and suits are an equaliser in the workplace just like uniform is at school. They're also a message to clients and customers to say that you take their time and money seriously (ever seen that episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm where the guy storms out of the lawyer's office on casual Friday?)

I think if you're working in a call-centre or low-level, non customer-facing role then fine, if you don't want to wear a tie with your suit then that's okay. But top firms (at least in Europe) generally demand that you have a degree of sartorial self-interest.

Don't wear a clip-on tie ever. If your boss has half a brain he'll be able to tell it's a clip-on tie, and that'll tell him everything he needs to know about someone who puts in the least amount of effort.

[adamb]

Windsor knot ftw!!

I don't even know how most people get the usual 'wrap round a few times then tuck down' thing to stay together at all.

[Iago]

Originally Posted by adambrennan Windsor knot ftw!! I don't even know how most people get the usual 'wrap round a few times then tuck down' thing to stay together at all.

I will occasionally retie my knot as a half-windsor ('wrap it round a few times and tuck down') if I want to undo my top button and (literally) roll my sleeves up at the end of the day.

[curiousuburb]

Originally Posted by adambrennan Windsor knot ftw!! I don't even know how most people get the usual 'wrap round a few times then tuck down' thing to stay together at all.

Depends on the tie.

I've got some shorter ones that can only manage a 4-in-hand or half Windsor, and a few longer ones that fail with anything less than complex knots.

A few favourites that suit small knot better than large, and a vintage one or two of irregular shape... but I don't think I have skinny leather 80s ties anymore. No Windsors possible with them.

In many 'suit required' environments, it's the only real element of male plumage / opportunity for individuality. If you've got to wear one, use it.


edit: Been years since I had a job that 'required' it... last job almost discouraged it except for events/external meetings. No sartorial workout.

[Capella]

I am so glad that in AFJROTC, women only had to wear tie tabs and not ties. I did, however, learn how to tie the Windsor so I could show freshies how to do it.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Iago Ties and suits are an equaliser in the workplace just like uniform is at school.

Um, yeah. That's exactly what's wrong with them (and wrong with uniforms): If I wanted to be equal, I'd go to the military. I want to be individual. I want to stand out from the crowd.

They're also a message to clients and customers to say that you take their time and money seriously

Really? Cause in my industry, they're a message that says "I fart into my chair all day and couldn't write good code if my life depended on it".

I'll wear a tie when society expects me to, and I can look good in a suit. But if a potential employer expects me to do that every day, it's really their loss, not mine.

[Iago]

Originally Posted by chucker Um, yeah. That's exactly what's wrong with them (and wrong with uniforms): If I wanted to be equal, I'd go to the military. I want to be individual. I want to stand out from the crowd.

The quality of your work is the only appropriate way to express your individualism in the workplace. If people are allowed to wear whatever they want to school/work it's too easy for brands and fashion to take centre stage. Suits aren't immune to that, but maybe 30% of the population know how to read the cut of a suit so it doesn't matter too much. You want to get noticed in a job? Do good work and obey the rules. That translates to do good work, arrive on time, leave when the work is done and wear a fucking suit.

Originally Posted by chucker Really? Cause in my industry, they're a message that says "I fart into my chair all day and couldn't write good code if my life depended on it".

To you, maybe. I don't think there's necessarily a link between programmers who wear suits and programmers who write bad code. I could say that they're equally a message that says "I don't work for a hip Web 2.0 company so I can't be really good at writing code!" which would also be nonsense.

Originally Posted by chucker But if a potential employer expects me to do that every day, it's really their loss, not mine.

Not when there are thousands of equally skilled individuals who don't throw their toys out of the pram when an employer makes a reasonable request about attire

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Iago The quality of your work is the only appropriate way to express your individualism in the workplace.

Sorry, but I'm not a machine, and you don't get to tell me what's appropriate or not.

If people are allowed to wear whatever they want to school/work it's too easy for brands and fashion to take centre stage.

This isn't a big deal at schools (in sane countries), and it shouldn't be at the workplace either. Wanna wear an expensive suit? Good for you. Don't wanna wear a t-shirt that shows the innards of an iPhone? Don't. But I might.

You want to get noticed in a job? Do good work and obey the rules.

I'm already doing good work, and again, this isn't the military. I'm not there to "obey".

That translates to do good work, arrive on time, leave when the work is done and wear a fucking suit.

Guess what? I get my work done. Sometimes I get it done by working nine to five, sometimes I get it done by doing some of it at home in the middle of the night on a Sunday, and sometimes I get it done by staying in the office until 11 PM. But I get it done. I don't need to arrive on time for that, because it's almost entirely irrelevant unless there happens to be a meeting to attend to, which tend to be — while not always avoidable — real time-wasters for almost everyone involved. And no, I'm not going to wear a suit unless there's a really good reason. I'm also going to wear headphones and/or earplugs while working, because I like to get stuff done, and I like to set an optimal atmosphere tweaked to my own preferences. I also setup my desk the way I like it, not in a cubicle humans-are-a-type-of-resource fashion.

To you, maybe. I don't think there's necessarily a link between programmers who wear suits and programmers who write bad code. I could say that they're equally a message that says "I don't work for a hip Web 2.0 company so I can't be really good at writing code!" which would also be nonsense.

I don't work for a Web 2.0 company; our venture capitalist is not Paul Graham and very little of our code has to do with AJAX, Ruby on Rails or MySQL.

Not when there are thousands of equally skilled individuals who don't throw their toys out of the pram when an employer makes a reasonable request about attire

When there are thousands in a company, that's a complete fail for me anyway. Yeah, there are some large corporations that do reasonably well, but only precisely when they let teams remain individualistic.

[faramirtook]

Oh, I <3 the windsor knot. There's a certain art to getting all different widths/lengths of ties to work with it- I have a fairly skinny, but quite long black tie that looks great with a very tightly wrapped full windsor.

While we're dealing with ties, there's another statement I must make: clip-on bowties are just as hideous and tacky as clip-on straight ties. The 25 minutes it takes to learn how to properly tie a bowtie and practice enough times to get it right is absolutely worth it. I'm a singer, so I actually get to wear tuxes fairly often; and it's amazing to see just how few people know how to tie a bowtie. It's actually fairly difficult to find formal satin/silk bowties that aren't pre-tied, the problem is so bad. Self-tied bowties look better while on and are LOTS of fun to take off (wink, wink, hint, hint).

[Swox]

I had to wear ties to school, and I'm delighted to very rarely have to wear them now. If there's a conference or something, I might put one on, but other than that I'm glad I don't have to. You'd look weird in our dept. in a tie - my supervisor wears a hoodie to class sometimes, and she's the most professional and hard working person I've met in my life.

The connection between doing what you're told, wearing a uniform to work, etc. and productivity is likely weak at best. I certainly don't see it at my "workplace".

That said, I'm going to get a nice suit for when I start looking for work (about 7 years from now), because you do need them (and ties) for job interviews. It's pretty ridiculous in a way, because no one wears them once they're hired.

Anyway, on the subject of ties: I've probably tied a tie a couple of thousand times in my life, and I have no idea of what knot I use. I wrap it around twice and then pull it up the back, then down through the second loop. If that makes any sense...

[Dorian Gray]

Ties (and uniforms more generally) are a good idea in schools. They cost a couple of hundred pounds per child per year, which is vastly less than rich kids' parents would spend on designer sportswear if uniforms weren't enforced. The UK has a big enough class problem as it is without exacerbating it with Nikes in primary school and fourteen-year-olds with Evisu jeans.

Workplaces are different: by that stage I'd hope your parents aren't funding your clothes habit. If you want to dress like a slob you should be allowed to, unless you're acting as the public face of a company. That said, a walk through any UK financial district will show you that even suits and ties can be seriously mangled by the British.

The Windsor Knot itself is nothing more than dogma at this point. The point is to make your shirt and tie look good, which is more to do with fit and precisely how you tie it than the name of the knot. I was taught the Windsor Knot at age four and used it exclusively for more than decade. So what. Tradition has its place but ties are a good chance to celebrate individuality, as Curiousuburb noted.

[torifile]

I wear a tie when I want to. It's just as much an expression of individualism as wearing my favorite flaming lips t shirt.

[Iago]

Originally Posted by chucker Sorry, but I'm not a machine, and you don't get to tell me what's appropriate or not.

Are you really that narrow-minded? If you genuinely believe that wearing a suit to work somehow makes you a machine, or a drone, or a robot, or a worker-ant, or a faceless nameless cog in the evil corporate machine, then you need a much bigger reality check than anyone here is able to provide you with.

The whole point is that actually, whatever ill-considered problem you might have with it, your employers do, on so many, many levels, get to tell you exactly what's appropriate. Again, if you can't grasp that or choose not to accept it then you're going to find the range of companies you can work for happily enormously diminished.

Originally Posted by chucker This isn't a big deal at schools (in sane countries), and it shouldn't be at the workplace either.

School uniforms are just one way to help instil a sense of discipline in children. Same as the armed forces. What's a "sane" country? In the UK all the top schools have uniforms. Mine had both summer and winter uniforms.

Originally Posted by chucker Wanna wear an expensive suit? Good for you. Don't wanna wear a t-shirt that shows the innards of an iPhone? Don't. But I might.

And that's fine when you're on your own time. When you work for a company who pay you for your time, if they say they want you to turn up wearing appropriate business attire then you do it. That's part of what you're paid for: to embody the message the company wants to send out. If the message your company chooses to endorse is that it's the sort of place where jeans and a t-shirt are okay then it's okay to wear jeans and a t-shirt.

Originally Posted by chucker I'm already doing good work, and again, this isn't the military. I'm not there to "obey".

Oops! You are there to obey! You already do obey on many levels! That's part of what you're paid for.

Originally Posted by chucker Guess what? I get my work done. Sometimes I get it done by working nine to five, sometimes I get it done by doing some of it at home in the middle of the night on a Sunday, and sometimes I get it done by staying in the office until 11 PM. But I get it done. I don't need to arrive on time for that, because it's almost entirely irrelevant unless there happens to be a meeting to attend to, which tend to be — while not always avoidable — real time-wasters for almost everyone involved. And no, I'm not going to wear a suit unless there's a really good reason. I'm also going to wear headphones and/or earplugs while working, because I like to get stuff done, and I like to set an optimal atmosphere tweaked to my own preferences. I also setup my desk the way I like it, not in a cubicle humans-are-a-type-of-resource fashion.

And if your employer said that they wanted you to come in 9-5, you'd do it. Welcome to the real world.

Originally Posted by chucker I don't work for a Web 2.0 company; our venture capitalist is not Paul Graham and very little of our code has to do with AJAX, Ruby on Rails or MySQL.

That was a joke. I'm saying there's no correlation between your patently stupid belief that people wearing suits = people who can't write code.

Originally Posted by chucker When there are thousands in a company, that's a complete fail for me anyway.

Presumably because they don't all have a personality crippled by an inability to submit to the authority of an employer, and you seem to.

Originally Posted by chucker Yeah, there are some large corporations that do reasonably well, but only precisely when they let teams remain individualistic.

Are you drunk?

[Maciej]

I like ties, too. Full windsor is the only knot I know.

Ties are nice because it gives ladies something to reign you in with, in a sort of "come 'ere!" type of way.

[billybobsky]

I don't think the class difference argument holds water for school uniforms. a child of a working class family knows it by the time they are noticing class differences. To try to assuage YOUR feelings about class playing a role in school by forcing children to wear uniforms is a tiny bit head-in-the-sand.

Rather instead of trying to ignore the problem with rigid social appearance, schools should use the differences for a wholehearted discussion on opportunities in the society at large.

The most common mistake a minority-majority (in class, race, religion) society makes is to try to belittle the major differences in life paths that small changes in wealth, skin color, or the church you attend make during your life.

Even if one believes that we can put off the inevitable realization that social class differences exist by forcing children to wear identical garments, those garments themselves become a sign of wealth. There is a distinct difference in the quality and ability to maintain uniforms over the course of a school year.

As for work place wears... I hate shopping for clothing. I work in a lab. I will wear thread bear/bleach stained clothing to lab without a second thought. The broad assumption is that I am from a working class family. I am not. The next thought is that I don't have the resources to purchase clothing. This is also false -- on paper, I am probably one of the wealthier graduate students due to a moderate inheritance I have been investing over the years. I just really hate shopping for clothing and it doesn't matter what I wear to work as long as I am covered.

That said, if I am going to look nice, I will look nice. I don't blink at the cost of high quality suits or the maintenance of them. At the same time, I'd prefer people not be able to guess my social standing by just looking at me, it comes as a defense mechanism from attending an urban university when the undergrads are preppy morons and the neighborhood is a slowly re-gentrifying ghetto. I like the fact that homeless people have looked at me and not bothered.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by torifile I wear a tie when I want to. It's just as much an expression of individualism as wearing my favorite flaming lips t shirt.

Just to clarify: as far as wearing a tie by your own choice is concerned, I naturally agree with that. I only think that wearing a tie because "it's policy" or "it's the social norm" doesn't express individualism at all.

Originally Posted by Iago The whole point is that actually, whatever ill-considered problem you might have with it, your employers do, on so many, many levels, get to tell you exactly what's appropriate.

Yep. And I get to tell them no-thank-you.

Again, if you can't grasp that or choose not to accept it then you're going to find the range of companies you can work for happily enormously diminished.

And that is where you're wrong: I would never be happy in such an environment to begin with, so if anything, I'm doing a clever, honest selection.

School uniforms are just one way to help instil a sense of discipline in children.

I know what they're good for. I also find the idea of schools being responsible for "instilling a sense of discipline" frighteningly outdated.

What's a "sane" country? In the UK all the top schools have uniforms. Mine had both summer and winter uniforms.

And did it help? Are you feeling quite, uh, disciplined?

And that's fine when you're on your own time. When you work for a company who pay you for your time,

Please. A company doesn't "pay me for my time". They pay me in order to benefit from my experience, my intellect and my ideas. I don't exactly work in a factory.

if they say they want you to turn up wearing appropriate business attire then you do it.

If we agree that it's appropriate (say, because a prospective client demands it), then yes, I'll do it, as I've said before. Otherwise, not so much. At the job interview, one boss showed up in a shirt, and the other in a sweater.

That's part of what you're paid for: to embody the message the company wants to send out.

Yes, and our message happens not to be "we're just as stuck in the past as all the other companies".

If the message your company chooses to endorse is that it's the sort of place where jeans and a t-shirt are okay then it's okay to wear jeans and a t-shirt.

Your point being…?

And if your employer said that they wanted you to come in 9-5, you'd do it. Welcome to the real world.

If they had a good reason, sure. If they didn't, I'd quit.

That was a joke. I'm saying there's no correlation between your patently stupid belief that people wearing suits = people who can't write code.

I was quite obviously exaggerating, and now you're reducing that ad absurdum. But yes, I would indeed argue that a person who's that self-conscious about their appearance is less likely to actually put out good results.

Are you drunk?

Are you resorting to ad-hominem attacks now?

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray Ties (and uniforms more generally) are a good idea in schools. They cost a couple of hundred pounds per child per year, which is vastly less than rich kids' parents would spend on designer sportswear if uniforms weren't enforced. The UK has a big enough class problem as it is without exacerbating it with Nikes in primary school and fourteen-year-olds with Evisu jeans.

In my experience, poor kids don't exactly dress poorly. If anything, they feel an excessive need to display their bling. If you're seriously advocating uniforms, are you going to standardize on their hairstyle as well? How about their watch? Cellphone? Food? Contents and brand of their bagpack? Maybe you're going to ban most accents, which in Britain have certain class connotations?

[billybobsky]

No offense meant, but I am slightly amused that the German is the one arguing for individualistic expression (I agree with you for the most part, chucker). If anyone has ever used a German designed piece of equipment, you will understand. There is only ever one way to use it, even if you realize that the machine is capable of some more advanced setup, the engineers have put blocks (software or physical) in the way of making use of the function.

[Iago]

Originally Posted by billybobsky I don't think the class difference argument holds water for school uniforms. a child of a working class family knows it by the time they are noticing class differences. To try to assuage YOUR feelings about class playing a role in school by forcing children to wear uniforms is a tiny bit head-in-the-sand. Rather instead of trying to ignore the problem with rigid social appearance, schools should use the differences for a wholehearted discussion on opportunities in the society at large. The most common mistake a minority-majority (in class, race, religion) society makes is to try to belittle the major differences in life paths that small changes in wealth, skin color, or the church you attend make during your life. Even if one believes that we can put off the inevitable realization that social class differences exist by forcing children to wear identical garments, those garments themselves become a sign of wealth. There is a distinct difference in the quality and ability to maintain uniforms over the course of a school year.

I agree that school uniform isn't the best equaliser there is, but I think it's a no-brainer. When kids are young, they default to that kind of one-upmanship and it's better to have at least a partially successful shield to it. Having said that, at my school the scholarship kids were picked on for being scholarship kids, their uniforms were just as immaculate as anybody else's, and I was initially disparaged for being a day student rather than full board, although when it came out that this was due to my proximity to the school rather than a lack of parental resources, that cleared up.

Originally Posted by billybobsky As for work place wears... I hate shopping for clothing. I work in a lab. I will wear thread bear/bleach stained clothing to lab without a second thought. The broad assumption is that I am from a working class family. I am not. The next thought is that I don't have the resources to purchase clothing. This is also false -- on paper, I am probably one of the wealthier graduate students due to a moderate inheritance I have been investing over the years. I just really hate shopping for clothing and it doesn't matter what I wear to work as long as I am covered.

That's exactly what I would do if I worked in a lab.

Originally Posted by billybobsky That said, if I am going to look nice, I will look nice. I don't blink at the cost of high quality suits or the maintenance of them. At the same time, I'd prefer people not be able to guess my social standing by just looking at me, it comes as a defense mechanism from attending an urban university when the undergrads are preppy morons and the neighborhood is a slowly re-gentrifying ghetto. I like the fact that homeless people have looked at me and not bothered.

But do you think an employer has the right to ask you to dress in a certain way? I think the point I'm making is that individualism doesn't come down to whether you wear a suit to work or not, it's something much broader than that, and chucker is saying that he wouldn't work somewhere if they told him he had to arrive at a certain time and to wear a tie.