[murbot]

Come on man, I'm totally sure that god wanted her to play with her toys and fixed her shoulder.

[billybobsky]

Re Temp etc...

Just to be sure, Freewell...

Temperature is a measurement of average kinetic energy -- it is definitional, and you can actually see heat at extremes -- that big ball in the sky is the color it is because of the temperature of its surface.

Gravity is a measurable quantity. You can drop a ball, you can model it, you can accurately describe the behavior of all objects in a gravitational field...

Wind can be felt, you can track it any number of ways. It is the action of moving gas.

Playing on ignorance of what is generally known about certain topics just perpetuates the ignorance...

Originally Posted by murbot Come on man, I'm totally sure that god wanted her to play with her toys and fixed her shoulder.

Perhaps you're right.

God wanted Freewell to play with her toys, just like he wanted me to puncture my foot and not bleed and ...

[chucker]

*sighs*

[thegelding]

mmmm, now that would be an interesting test of faith...

would you jump out of an airplane without a parachute? if no? why not?

i wonder what dark matter feels like? is it soft? mushy? dense? would walking through it tickle? would flying through it hurt??

i want a dark matter bed...i want to take dark matter showers. i wonder if dark matter condoms would protect against the spread of STDs?


g

[billybobsky]

You wouldn't feel dark matter. It doesn't have electrostatic repulsion so it would pass right through you, we know this because it doesn't interact with light. It may however kill you by decaying...

[Moogs]

I won't engage in the [back and forth part that's rearing its ugly head] because I think ultimately the thread will get locked, and that's a shame, because it's a good question. If more people asked questions like the thread starter instead of closing their the eyes tight, donning their holy ear-muffs while adamantly pointing to a book... written by people who couldn't explain why the day was 24 hours long, why there are clouds in the sky and why the tides rise and fall every day... the world would be a lot better off.

Gelding made an outstanding point too and that is, the reason to treat people with respect, to love your loved ones back, and to contribute to people's lives instead of tearing them down... is because of our ability to sympathize and empathize with other human beings. Knowing what it is to suffer, and also knowing what it is to be helped, loved and considered in all respects. Not because a book told you to do it, not because an invisible grey beard in the sky will punish you if you don't (they don't make a rolleyes big enough for this one), and not because the all-knowing pastors (many of whom majored in marketing I'm sure) will be disappointed.

And as for God, I certainly believe he had a hand in creating what's around us and what is us... but I'm not naive enough to believe that he did it all in the simpleton-minded way that religious texts (Christian or otherwise) tell us. All these evangelicals... believe what they believe because it's the only way their minds can cope with the uncertainties and difficulties in life. If everything is reduced to storybook time, black and white, our way and their way... then suddenly you're no longer responsible for trying to really understand the world around you. It's all laid out for you in terms a 5 year old can understand. How convenient.

Dark Matter as a manifestation of God? Let's talk...

Some variant of the Big Bang and some variant of Evolution (both imperfect but workable theories to be sure), as the engines of a brilliant intelligence, setting forth life and change on an unimaginable scale? I'm all for that kind of thinking. It's what will bring each generation closer to what God actually is. Closer to understanding the meaning behind life and the universe. Granted, I believe we are truly infants sitting at the foot of a proverbial Einstein, but each generation has to try. People who just point to a book and say "all done; I get it, you don't" are not trying in the least, IMHO. They gave up as soon as they decided to keep going back to the book, instead of investigating other sources.

The very notion that a being so supremely intelligent and powerful that he can create a universe(s) like the one we've only just begun to understand... that he would do things as described in religious texts and not something much closer to what's in the science texts is the ultimate proof of how simpleton minds operate IMO. Much more worthwhile to keep scratching your head and wondering and surmising new things like the thread starter.

[Naderfan]

Originally Posted by Moogs Some variant of the Big Bang and some variant of Evolution (both imperfect but workable theories to be sure), as the engines of a brilliant intelligence, setting forth life and change on an unimaginable scale? I'm all for that kind of thinking. It's what will bring each generation closer to what God actually is. Closer to understanding the meaning behind life and the universe. Granted, I believe we are truly infants sitting at the foot of a proverbial Einstein, but each generation has to try. People who just point to a book and say "all done; I get it, you don't" are not trying in the least, IMHO. They gave up as soon as they decided to keep going back to the book, instead of investigating other sources. The very notion that a being so supremely intelligent and powerful that he can create a universe(s) like the one we've only just begun to understand... that he would do things as described in religious texts and not something much closer to what's in the science texts is the ultimate proof of how simpleton minds operate IMO. Much more worthwhile to keep scratching your head and wondering and surmising new things like the thread starter.

This is pretty close to what I believe. I am a Christian but I believe that the creation story and the like in the Bible were a way to explain things in a manner that the people of the time could understand. As we (as a species) grow in understanding, new things/ideas are discovered/revealed. Right now, the best theories we can come up with are things like the Big Bang and Evolution. But we also know they aren't perfect. But now we're also getting into new ideas, like Dark Matter. Who knows? Maybe we're on the verge of a new leap in understanding. Anyway, not sure if I explained that well or not, so to sum up, I agree with a lot of Moogs post.

[Freewell]

This all reiterates the essence of my original post.

Regardless of what you choose to believe, the fact of the matter is, you choose to believe.

[billybobsky]

I choose not to believe.

The question of whether there is or isn't a god doesn't actually make sense without the presumption of one without evidence.

That is a presumption I do not make.

[World Leader Pretend]

Faith is, at one and the same time, absolutely necessary and altogether impossible.
-Stanislaw Lem

There is a higher power out there, you would be crazy to deny that. We as humans don't have the power to comprehend this, but we are being extremely arrogant to believe that we are the highest form of life or intelligence out there.

[johnq]

Originally Posted by World Leader Pretend There is a higher power out there, you would be crazy to deny that. We as humans don't have the power to comprehend this, but we are being extremely arrogant to believe that we are the highest form of life or intelligence out there.

See, it isn't either/or. There is no "god" (or gods, don't freak out that I'm picking on *your* god), nor are we necessarily the "highest form of life" "out there".

This is the standard religionist tactic: "X is not understood, hence there is a god (obviously!); and merely suggesting we can ever understand X is arrogance, so let's not try and instead settle for god as the answer".

If god exists, then gods do too. Gods are as unprovable as God and as equally "plausibly" attributable to all life's mysteries and complexities.

And no, "all roads" do not lead to the same god, so let's not, say, arrogantly suggest each culture is just worshipping your god under a different guise. that would destroy so much that is culturally or philosophically significant about other religions that "yours" might be lacking.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by billybobsky I choose not to believe. The question of whether there is or isn't a god doesn't actually make sense without the presumption of one without evidence. That is a presumption I do not make.

billybobsky, this isn't pointed at you, but I know your thoughts are agreed on by a few here so this is more to the lot of you and not you personally.


But the world is filled with evidence. Just because you choose to call it chance and coincidence doesn't change the fact that it is only done by that hand of God. This world and solar system (and beyond for that matter) are so far beyond the "it just happened" phase by the shear complexity of how they all intertwine. Life couldn't have just happened. You may choose to plug your ears and close your eyes, but that doesn't change what is right in front of you.

As for Freewell's comment about her arm being healed: I have seen people wake up deaf and go to sleep hearing. I have seen a girl who was diagnosed three times with HIV/AIDS and after being prayed over, receive a clean bill of health. Three years later she is still testing negative to HIV/AIDS. I have seem bones healed and joints repaired.

I know that you say it can't be, or that it was a misdiagnosis, it makes you feel more comfortable to think that science messed up in the original diagnosis therefore there is no miracle that happened. You know, that deaf guy was faking it for years until that evening at church. Now he is just keeping us going by acting like he can hear us as he answers questions you ask of him with his back turned to you. Oh and I'm sure that all three original HIV/AIDS tests were faulty, bad batch over the two years of diagnosis. Can you imagine that she was the statistical anomaly to get three bad tests over two years? Everyone loves to mock the guy with a cane or crutches who walks up to an alter requiring them but bound away without them. He is real. It happens all the time.

I'm sure if you think about it, you know of some miracles that happened around you and maybe even with people you know.

Yes, you have the ability to choose to not believe. Though it is hard not to when you actually look at the evidence that surrounds you. Logic only goes so far. You have to remember, your logic is only contained with the information you have learned along your life's journey so far. I'm not surprised you have chosen to invalidate God because you can't see, smell, hear, taste or touch Him, because logic has taught you this is the only way to believe something.

[Elysium]

Until we get off topic tags, we'll settle for blacking out the nonsense.

Originally Posted by turtle2472 But the world is filled with evidence. Just because you choose to call it chance and coincidence doesn't change the fact that it is only done by that hand of God. This world and solar system (and beyond for that matter) are so far beyond the "it just happened" phase by the shear complexity of how they all intertwine. Life couldn't have just happened. You may choose to plug your ears and close your eyes, but that doesn't change what is right in front of you. And because you don't call it chance and circumstance, doesn't preclude the existence of a hand of God. Originally Posted by turtle2472 As for Freewell's comment about her arm being healed: I have seen people wake up deaf and go to sleep hearing. I have seen a girl who was diagnosed three times with HIV/AIDS and after being prayed over, receive a clean bill of health. Three years later she is still testing negative to HIV/AIDS. I have seem bones healed and joints repaired. Now I believe the human body is is just as exceedingly complex as the universe. Just because something happens that we can't explain (deafness turns to hearing, disappearance of HIV), doesn't make for a divinely inspired miracle. The whole body is a complex system constantly undergoing fine-tuning and changes. What's stopping an entirely natural mutation occurring within ones body to effect these miraculous changes.

Now onto the dark matter question:

I believe that the universe was self-created, Big Bang style, with the fundamental laws of physics and thermodynamics immediately becoming applied. Now something that always troubled me before. All of the physical matter was bound up into that tiny pace until exploding out into an infinite vacuum.

But a vacuum of what? Some would say that it was God. I'm willing to let that stand. But I like this new approach. A universe of dark matter with its own set of rules, being injected by the rest of the material that now makes up the rest of the universe.

Simple, elegant. I like it. It's worked so far with the physical universe. All we started out with was atoms of hydrogen, helium, miniscule amounts of lithium, and those fundamental laws. 13 billions years later, look what we got now.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by cynical_rock And because you don't call it chance and circumstance, doesn't preclude the existence of a hand of God. Well, there's that whole "burden of proof" thing. One might as well argue that a fairy unicorn and a group of renegade leprechauns are out there controlling the cosmos.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by billybobsky I choose not to believe. The question of whether there is or isn't a god doesn't actually make sense without the presumption of one without evidence. That is a presumption I do not make.

Question: do you trust people? Do you ever let someone do something for you, trusting they get it right and don't screw up, because if they did, you'd be in big trouble?

If you do, you do have faith. Maybe not in higher beings, but certainly in your surroundings.

Originally Posted by Brad Well, there's that whole "burden of proof" thing. One might as well argue that a fairy unicorn and a group of renegade leprechauns are out there controlling the cosmos.

Whatever metaphor works for you.

[Doxxic]

Originally Posted by thegelding wiki: dark matter refers to matter particles, not directly observed and of unknown composition, that do not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be detected directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. According to the Standard Model, dark matter accounts for the vast majority of mass in the observable universe. supposively makes up 5/6ths of the mass of the known universe, yet we can't see or observe it directly.... so can we touch it? will it hinder possible space flight?

To me, instead of looking for explanations in the particle-sphere, we could as well see time and space as a little curved by nature.
Like you'd expect a water surface to be perfectly flat, but there are always some waves in it, by nature.

I just think that there is something about the nature of light and the space-time continuum that we don't know yet.

This could be related to this phenomenon, where 2 large ships floating, say, 20 m from eachother, tend to move towards eachother, because the waves are smaller between them than they are across the rest of the sea. It *looks* like they gravitate towards eachother. But really, it's caused by unequal distribution of surface noise (sea waves)

Maybe we can find some kind of very large scale "surface" noise in space-time.

If space-time is full of pits and curves caused by matter, and holes caused by black holes, why can't it be full of (moving) ripples, being damped by the same matter, and causing it to glue together faster than we'd expect?

[thegelding]

well one thing about dark matter as "my" God.........my God is freakin' HUGE...

keep your God as a man with a white beard or as a burning bush or as a blue guy with 8 arms....

my God spreads throughout the universe and throughout time and weighs 5 times more than all the suns and worlds and everything else all rolled up into one...my Dark Matter God™ is hella big, impossibly big...but that is just the way my DMG rolls baby

i might have to get a bumper sticker that says:

My God can beat up your God

g


or maybe: My God is an honor student at Dark Matter Middle School

[billybobsky]

Turtle,

I am really sorry, but you are too stuck in a belief to understand what the lack of belief gives you. The entire universe is a spontaneous amalgamation of probabilities. Nothing is TOO complex to attempt to explain rationally so calling on an unprovable higher power is just weakness of the mind.

You don't actually seem to understand what is meant by the placebo effect, the probability of misdiagnosis, the fact that this solar system is just one of probably trillions, that life is extraordinarily simple when you get down to it.

You see god isn't necessary to explain the universe. In fact I would go farther, an unbending belief in a god is counter productive to understanding the universe. Why should we seemingly instinctually try to understand the world around us when it would be just as well to ASSUME that god made everything for a purpose?

Ultimately, the question is: Why do YOU need to cite evidence for your belief in god?

Why have you chosen the view of god as creator instead of god as his son for your personal take on christianity?

Evidence-based belief is NOT faith, it is a lower form of belief...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by billybobsky Ultimately, the question is: Why do YOU need to cite evidence for your belief in god?

Because questioning one's beliefs is a sign of intellect?

[billybobsky]

To Chucker:

I don't actually trust people to do things I absolutely need to get done. This way I am never disappointed and I don't get angry if and when they fail... Also, I never ask a person to do something for me that I don't already trust. This is common, no? We don't blindly go about doing things in our day to day life. We use baynesian logic to asses the risks of our behavior...

Originally Posted by chucker Because questioning one's beliefs is a sign of intellect?

But finding evidence EVERYWHERE for it isn't really questioning...

Regardless, this isn't the way anyone who cites the existence of the universe as evidence of the christian god. Genesis makes it all too apparent that you have to believe such bullshit to believe in god.

[chucker]

I appreciate your posts; they're very intriguing.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by chucker I appreciate your posts, they're very intriguing.

OMFG COMMA SPLICE BURN IN HELL

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brad OMFG COMMA SPLICE BURN IN HELL

Gosh! You're even more pedantic than I am. How do you do that? (Point taken. Shame on me!)

[Doxxic]

I know I'm being a bit of a party pooper but houldn't this thread be about the nature of dark matter, instead of God's nature?

"God" was just one optional explanation and it gets the opposite amount of attention it deserves, since everyone has a different idea of the meaning of "God" anyway.

[Freewell]

I love how Brad can add humor to just about any conversation! If he were a mere movie element, he would be the comic relief!

[thegelding]

Originally Posted by Doxxic I know I'm being a bit of a party pooper but houldn't this thread be about the nature of dark matter, instead of God's nature? "God" was just one optional explanation and it gets the opposite amount of attention it deserves, since everyone has a different idea of the meaning of "God" anyway.

yes, please...i was hoping somebody could really explain dark matter to me...

but why i chose God? well we have this huge invisible "stuff"...insanely huge, timeless, bends light, changes the spin of galaxies...we can't see it, touch it, don't even really know what it is or if it is even real...sounds like God to me....

what i think is weird is that we think God watches and talks to us...kinda vain really...image something that can make all this, affect all this, envision all this and everything...this thing is older than time, larger than infinity...why would it talk to us? heck i don't like talking to my neighbor and on a galactic scale we are the same person...it's like me talking to an ameoba, but taken a thousand times more removed

the way i see it is this:

the "current" universe (i won't get into accordion theory and such) is what 15 billion years old?...it will go on for about 50 billion more, give or take...well if we survive and evolve and really really work hard for the next 35 billion years and right at that point as all known matter collapses down again to the next big bang, for about 1 millionth of a nano second God will lean over, look at us as the children we still are compared to him, say, "sup, dog?" and boom, big bang and we start all over...50 billion years again till we get, "hi" again....

g

[World Leader Pretend]

Originally Posted by Brad OMFG COMMA SPLICE BURN IN HELL

Made my day.

[billybobsky]

Dark matter....

Light interacts electronically with normal matter in several particular ways (but one is dominant). It causes the movement of electrons such that the charge is distributed differently around nuclei.

A free proton will not interact with light in this way. A free electron will not interact with light in this way. Nor a neutron...

The problem becomes that free protons and such are somewhat rare (though apparently much more common than one would normally think) in open space. So dark matter must be composed of something else... That something else at the very least isn't composed of atoms as such. It may be composed of other long lived subatomic particles... or as theories go it might not exist, though this one is slowly falling aside due to the growing gravitational lensing evidence (sadly -- it would have been more fascinating if general relativity was incomplete or we got a better hook to hang quantum gravity)...

[Doxxic]

Billybobsky, why do you think that dark matter is composed of something - maybe some kind of particles?

What we see is light being bent, which implies fluctuations in the space-time continuum (by definition, if I'm right).

But, being a total amateur at this, I wonder why this should be caused by matter, or other particles of any kind.
Is it a just a habit of physicians to explain things in terms of particles, of which the characteristics can be specified afterwards?

Why don't scientists try to solve this mystery by focusing on the way light may define space-time, or the way the space-time continuum behaves by itself (I realize this could be pretty nonsensical), or anyway at least see if they kan find some new reasoning or physical laws, instead of even more theoretical particles?

[spikeh]

Originally Posted by thegelding we can't see it, touch it, don't even really know what it is or if it is even real...sounds like God to me....

Add the following to the list and you'll have hit God on the head:

* No proof for it beyond personal registrations.
* Responsible for more bloodshed than any other cause or belief throughout history.
* Riddled with logical fallacies (like, the whole existence of God as explained by any of the major religions is riddled with logical fallacies).
* Explainable by science.

Ho-hum. I'd have liked to believe that the people on here, being blessed with good taste in computers, would be rather more progressive than believing in God. I was 'religious' for 10 years, and looking back, it really is the most absurd, laughable belief. I'm with Richard Dawkins: we shouldn't tip-toe around religion as if it is sacred ground. Religion != a good thing.