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The Rise of Skywalker *Spoilers*


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The Rise of Skywalker *Spoilers*
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2019-12-31, 21:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
To be fair, the t -shirt pics of Kennedy and the young women allegedly isn’t Star Wars, capital-F “Force” related. It’s part of a Nike campaign, blah blah.
OH! I thought this just was a gag you made up. I'm pretty far out of the loop with these kinds of things. Got a link to a relevant pic I could see?

edit: Oh… now I see. One quick search later:

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2019-12-31, 21:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
- I still hate these all-CG characters. That tiny troll who reprogrammed Threepio? That nutsack of a face Maz Kanata? These things aren't even in the uncanny valley. They're past the horizon way over there down in the unbelievable gorge. I don't understand how Disney/Star Wars does these characters so badly. Maybe it's some kind of sick homage to the CG abominations in the "remastered" original trilogy of the 90s and the prequels.
I just have to harp on this issue one more time because I remembered that Baby Yoda exists.

And he's a real-world thing. A muppet. Or a puppet. Whatever, but he's not a CG monstrosity.

This is how you make a believable character. Not inside computers with half-baked tracking dots and cheating normal maps and mismatched ray tracing light rigs but out here in the physical world where people and the setting can actually interact with it.


The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-12-31, 21:26

Re: the T-shirt, etc., you gotta read the story behind it. I just use it as a joke/snark because I like to hammer Ms. Kennedy, as I do Abrams, for her role in all this.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-02, 13:33

...and in No Shit, Tell Us Something We Didn't Know news, The Rise of Skywalker was rushed and is a bunch of fan-service, according to the film's editor.

Kinda disheartening to read how moviemaking is dictated by release dates/marketing reasons. Could this have been a better, stronger (and more coherent) movie if maybe they'd kicked it out until May (historically a pretty good time for SW to be released to the world), and they put in a little more work? Who knows. But this article proves there was a flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants/cobbling-it-together-as-you-went aspect to the production, as I've suspected/said. They didn't sit in a traditional editing bay for a decent amount of time and maybe think about, or try different, approaches. Or maybe even view it all in a "big picture" way before going to work on it? It seems it was "Action! Cut! How's this? Print. Next!" affair, editing/making big decisions in the field, in real time. That can't be an ideal approach for this kind of movie.

And it shows, IMO.

A kangaroo on PCP might've put together a more nuanced, better-flowing and easier-to-follow movie. But don't hold me to that...I'm merely speculating, based on my limited knowledge of marsupials and angel dust.

As for the final paragraph:

Quote:
One of the biggest complaints thrown at “Rise of Skywalker” is that the movie is pure fan service, which is not a claim Brandon will try to fight. “Look, sure, it’s fan service,” the editor said, “[but] if you didn’t service the fans, it would be, ‘Oh, he didn’t go along with the history of ‘Star Wars’ and what it all means.’”
Yeah, but you managed to botch both. Congrats.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-02, 19:15

I think there was a very clear and obvious idea in George Lucas' head for Episode IV, and then very good continuity with V-VI. When he decided to do I-III, he sat down and wrote out a brief outline for all three movies, then basic scripts for all three, and then a very polished script for Episode I. He had those things nailed down inside his head. Episode IV was very stressful for him, so he hired very good writers and directors for V and VI to help him nail down what he wanted to do. The result was a nearly perfect string of three movies. I say "nearly" because all three films have flaws, but I give them the benefit of the doubt for the effects and editing tools available at the time. With I-III, he had everything settled in his head, but failed to return to those very good writers and directors, thus leaving the emotional holes in his head scattered throughout the prequels.

Episodes VII-IX were left to Disney to solve, and they didn't want Lucas mucking things up so they basically ignored his input. That left Kathleen Kennedy to try and figure out what to do, and she was clearly clueless, especially as far as mapping out all three films to be a clear and concise continuation of the saga. Sure, they wanted to let go of the past, but that did not prevent them from sitting down in a group to write out a brief outline for all three movies, then basic scripts for all three, and then a very polished script for Episode VII. Something, anything, to make all three stick together as one cohesive unit. Then, even if the unit as a whole was bad, at least it would make sense. I mean, VII-IX are all good movies when taken alone and outside of the SW universe. The cinematography is exceptional, the sound amazing, the effects are crisp and engaging. They're all very good on their own.

But!

None of them truly work as an extension of the SW universe in and of themselves. Episode VII is a remake, Episode VIII is a departure, Episode IX is a bandaid. Each serves it's purpose and, successively, each serves to correct mistakes made in the prior film. If I were to sit down tonight and watch all three, the unit would make almost no sense. It's just weird.



As far as the future of the franchise is concerned, I disagree that Disney should take time off from the theater. I think they have an excellent formula for the spinoff characters and can do a lot with that world. As long as they avoid the original saga (other than telling backstories, etc.) they will be fine. But if they try to plug in beyond that I think it's going to fail, because the ideas Lucas had in his head are clearly of no concern to Kathleen Kennedy or any of her cohorts. They don't care, that much is clear.

Rogue One, Solo, and The Mandalorian have shown me that when the right writer/director are involved there are endless possibilities. And, now that the saga is completed, it can be left to lie where it is, to smolder, stew, wax nostalgic, blah, blah, blah.

Gimme my Star Wars, just please, please hire me to help you plan this crap out! because you people haven't the foggiest clue what you're doing!

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-02, 20:55

I just think everyone is overloaded right now and I think the brand is tainted a bit, overall. I've actually heard - in real life and on comment/message boards around the Internet - people saying "another one?" or "man, they're just milking this crap", etc. I really don't think anyone's all that impressed or taken with the franchise at the moment. I think a few years out of the multiplex would be wise, just to let things fade/soften a bit, let true fans miss it a bit, etc. Casual fans probably don't differentiate between the saga installments and the standalone things, so no matter what they might be planning as we speak, I think Star Wars, in general, is just a bit of a bad taste too many. I've heard/read way more negativity about the property then not these past few years.

Coming back in two years and beating people over the head with unasked-for yearly releases of half-realized, empty dreck isn't going to fix/improve anything.

And I think they need to return to springtime releases again. Something about Star Wars in December is just...off. It's having to compete with too much, IMO.

I'm not saying "don't do anything"...to help build the Disney+ thing, I think they should be putting their focus there, on Mandalorian type things set in/around a familiar universe. I'm not nuts about the return of Obi-Wan, even though Ewan McGregor is always solid and fun to watch (and was the best part of the prequels). But I think they'd have a better shot of trying out true departures - characters, planets, villains, etc. we've never heard of - on the TV side than to jump right into a $200M feature film (or new theatrical trilogy). I think that part of Star Wars needs to cool its heels for a few years, for all sorts of reasons.

Then come back when a) folks have missed it a little, and b) there's a solid, good reason to do so (a new story that is truly well-written, mapped out, isn't hinging solely on fan-service/tribute band approach, etc. Because if all they're looking to do is repeat this sequel trilogy (in tone, laziness, unoriginality, etc.), then they're up a tree, and screwed. Because I truly don't think that's what people are looking for.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2020-01-03 at 12:00.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-03, 20:31

Oh, I just remembered something...

Since folks seem to be cool with Force-based Wolverine healing just popping up out of nowhere in this ninth movie, what's your take on the Doug Henning-level magic trick of teleporting/transporting physical objects via the Force?!

Rey put her lightsaber behind her back and brought her empty hand back with a "ta-da" move, and the thing appeared in Kylo's hand, who was standing some distance away.

Now that power hasn't been even remotely part of the saga, across eight movies.

Again, I guess you can chalk it up to stuff Rey learned from reading those Jedi journals? But some context or acknowledgement might've been nice, just so it wasn't so out-of-nowhere.

Does all this not strike anyone as hacky things bad writers come up with to fill gaps/lapses in their lousy story/script? If this kind of nonsense happened on a TV show starring Lorenzo Lamas or one of those piece-of-shit made-for-Syfy flicks, you'd be ripping it to shreds. But it gets a pass here, huh?

"Let's just ramp up the Jedi stuff and throw in whatever we need to explain how people can survive mid-torso saber stabs and how a lightsaber can make it from a character who has it to one who needs it!"

Good grief, I hate this #$@&* movie.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-04, 00:41



It's the force, dude. Just roll with it!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-04, 10:41

That’s exactly the reaction J.J. and Terrio hope for/bank on. You’re kinda making my point for me.

“People will go for it...It’s ‘The Force’, an infinite, instant bag of tricks we get to pull from when this shit we’re writing doesn’t really make sense. This time around, we're gonna introduce the Doug Henning, Wolverine and Jesus aspects because we've written ourselves into a bit of corner in a few places. There doesn’t have to be any reason, grounding or precedent, which makes our job super easy! Don’t worry about it, Chris...I know what I’m doing, trust me. I’m J.J. Abrams, bitch!”
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Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2020-01-04, 11:56

Saw it, didn't care that much.

- The actress playing Rose was just awful. Bad casting of a pointless character.

- Leia should probably have been killed off in VII.

- Yeah, force healing was too much of a cop-out. Same with teleporting stuff. Just lazy-ass writing.

- Daisy Ridley, Adam Driver and Billy Dee were the only actors who didn't seem to be calling it in.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-04, 12:02

Finally, someone else here sees it the way I do. I was starting to wonder...

Yeah, now that Rey is genuinely awesome and fleshed out, we’ll probably never see her again. Too bad. I hope they’re considering something like my idea upthread, but probably not.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-07, 16:46

So, now I'll talk about 10 things I did not like.

1) I do not like the lack of continuity between these three films
2) I do not like that TROS spent so much time trying to fix TLJ
3) I do not like that the writers spent so much time trying to make Rose and Finn a thing, and then just ignored it in TROS
4) I do not like that Rey identifies as a Skywalker. She clearly is not, and it doesn't work
5) I do not like force healing in this movie—it works in The Mandalorian, it does not work here
6) I do not like the Chewie death scene. The reveal happened too soon and ruined my emotional connection to the loss
7) I do not like the perfect formation of Star Destroyers; it looked awkward and forced
8) I do not like Palpatine's force lightning used to disable all those ships; this was a lazily designed weapon
9) I do not like the way Luke was just a has-been, worthless old womp rat
10) I do not like the lazy approach to Leia's Jedi "mastery"

It's not a long list, and there are other things that bugged me (C-3P0, again! Through the original series, Goldenrod was always used so well. His humor was well-timed, in context, and needed no supposition. Since then, he has been used almost entirely as an in-scene narrator to explain to us what has transpired or to lay on some terrible dad-joke.) but those are the ten things that stand out to me more than all the others.

Now, a bit more detail:

1) Episodes VII-IX are about as disconnected as any three movies in any trilogy ever conceived. They contain the same set of characters, but none of those characters retains anything even remotely like a constant relationship with any of the other characters. They are all over the place such that none of these relationships is believable. An obvious attempt was made in Episode VII to build a romantic relationship between Rey and Finn which was set up toward the end of the movie. Enter Episode VIII and that relationship shifts to Finn and Rose and feels so forced and fake that the relationship between Anakin and Padme looks like genius screen-writing, and then in Episode IX the writers allude to something going on between Finn and Rey, but not really, and maybe between Poe and Rey, but not really. Seriously, each set of characters completely fails to demonstrate any relationship continuity with anyone else and left me wondering who the hell all these people are supposed to be. Again, as a trilogy, this thing fails from start to finish.

2) Almost the entire running length of TROS was spent undoing the damage caused by The Last Jedi. TLJ was so bad that it ranks not only at the bottom of my Star Wars movie list, but near the bottom of my Worst Movies Ever Made list. So many mistakes were made that TROS loses any ability to genuinely add to the Skywalker saga because it's too busy tripping over Rian Johnson's horrible story.

3) Rose and Finn. Ah, the Star Wars romance that spawned more than any sub-plot in any movie, like, ever! Seriously, who are these two idiots? They meet awkwardly while Finn is still cowarding, then go on some random mission clearly intended to drive political agendas, and then that kissy moment that leads to the near destruction of the rebellion. Zero chemistry! I mean, none! This is such bad writing, bad acting, bad everything. So, how to fix it in TROS? I know! Ignore it. Let's just pretend like it never happened. I mean, we'll have Rose awkwardly stalking Finn, and Finn acting like a boneheaded man trying to escape a failed love interest. Rose be like, "Heyyyyyy, Fiiiiiiinn!" and Finn be like, "Oh, man, it's that crazy chick I slept with while I was drunk. How to get away from her. Oh, I know. Hi, uh, Rosé, uh, yeah, got to go fight the bad guys now. Don't wait for me, probably gonna die fighting next to this hotter-than-you chick the writers shoved into the story to give me an out. So, yeah. Luck!" Um, no!

4) Rey is a Palpatine Skywalker! Wait, what? I get it. She doesn't want to go around the universe being a Palpatine, so she "identifies" as a Skywalker? Rey is not a Skywalker, and no future movie in which Rey "identifies" as a Skywalker is going to convince me that she is. This scene was beautiful and harkened back to Luke, and it was very moving. But she is no Skywalker, and never will be! Skywalker is not a profession like "Jedi", it is a family name.

5) Force healing works in The Mandalorian because we are dealing with a new character—young, child-like, exploring his little force skill things. It works that Force McFrog has this ability because the story builds into it. In TROS it is just there, and suddenly everyone knows how to do it. I don't think it takes away from the story as a standalone movie, but as part of a trilogy and a saga spanning 9 films, it just doesn't work. And, yeah, I agree with Scates. Somewhere down the road we can just resurrect anyone we want, and that removes the drama of fear.

6) Chewie died! I had that in my head and was wondering how he could live through it. I was still collecting a tear or two when he is shown alive in the next scene, and the whole setup fell on its face. it was poorly done, and could have actually lead to a much better lesson: be careful of your power lest you destroy someone you love! That was completely lost, and suddenly I no longer felt bad for Rey.

7) Those Star Destroyers all lined up in a perfect little grid. Give me a break, already! Maybe they could have been a little more creative and had an actual shipyard or something. But being built beneath the ice just … . That part did not work for me in the previews, and it worked even less in the movie. Just too neat and tidy. In the original trilogy and even the prequels, star destroyers were kind of all over the place. It looked deliberate and menacing. These things looked like they were organized by Captain Anal!

8) Suddenly Palpatine can force lightning an entire armada? Nope. Too cute and cuddly. It's like the writers needed a "Han will have that shield down" moment. It would have been far better if the Star Destroyers had started targeting the capital ships with their big lasers. That would have been way more believable.

9) Through this entire trilogy, Luke Skywalker was just a used up, bitter old man. Mark Hammil must be rolling around screaming at the waste of such an iconic character. Trouble is, Luke was set up for a big reveal at the end of Episode VII, then he was just a cranky, bitter, sour … it's a long list of negatives. And that's a key takeaway from this trilogy. Luke Skywalker is the real tragedy of the sequels. A man who nearly gave his life fighting for the rebellion and the Jedi way was suddenly transformed into a man so scared of his own shadow that he tried to murder a student and then hid away on a little island like some worn out hermit. Then, as TROS tries to get it's feet beneath itself, it's too late to do anything because Luke is already dead and has nothing to do but smile at the stupidity of the entire trilogy's lost opportunity.

10) Suddenly, out of nowhere and with no context to support it, Leia is a Jedi master. The only reason for the existence of this story line is to send Carrie Fisher out in a blaze of glory. Oh, how this whole thing would have been better had LucasFilm chosen to tell us a bit of that story in Episode VII. Oh well. At least we got to see her force powers: Force Mary-Poppins-can-survive-in-deep-space, and Force Distract-your-son-so-Rey-can-kill-him. *sigh*



I really enjoyed TROS, but I hated the trilogy. It fails to work in any meaningful way, none of the characters ever come together as a family, we never get to see the original cast together doing what they do, and politics/social causes distracted too heavily from what otherwise had the opportunity to finish a truly great story with a truly great conclusion. This mess gets to live down there with the prequels as a string of poorly considered trash that cannot and will not stand the test of time. When people say "Star Wars" a hundred years from now, it will be to the ring of Episode IV, which set the stage for all others to come, and still cannot be trumped when all aspects are considered. I'll be able to watch VII and IX apart, will struggle to ever let VIII play on my TV, and cannot fathom watching all three together. Too confusing, jumbled, and snobbed up with crap to work like that.

P.S. If it were up to me, I would change that t-shirt to read "The Force is FUBAR"

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2020-01-07 at 17:59.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-07, 21:34

All valid points. All the casting, action, CGI, fan-service, nostalgia, explosions, visuals, cool hardware/vehicles, etc. in the world can't fix a poorly-written, incoherent and limp story. In fact, a well-written, engaging story can often overcome lousy casting, action, CGI, etc. I've seen it many times. But these fools put every cart imaginable before the horse, and this is what you get: a story, and characters, that is impossible to give an honest, genuine damn about.

Hopefully some lessons were learned.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-08, 12:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Hopefully some lessons were learned.
No, I don't think so. Clearly, there are two camps within LucasFilm. Camp #1 is where the Skywalker saga people are at, and Camp #2 is where the spinoff people are at. The spinoffs have mostly been very good (Solo was okay, but not great—I think they missed some grand opportunities here).

But …

Camp #1 failed over the course of six entire movies, and no lessons were learned, nor is there an opportunity to learn anything since the series has shot its wad! Should Rey's story continue forward—and there is great potential for that—she will forever be known as a Skywalker, and she is not a Skywalker! Because of that one line, I see no way forward in that regard that does not play fast and loose with my intellect.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2020-01-08 at 17:45.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-10, 13:37

Typical.

"Hey, we've killed everyone else, why not? Just put it in the novels, comics or video games...people have nothing better to do with their time than to try and piece together all this shit we couldn't be bothered to make clear in a two-hour-plus movie! Trust me, people love a challenge." - J.J.

This movie is going to be in the $5 DVD bin at Walmart come March, and on TNT by May, fighting for airtime among the 480 weekly showings of The Shawshank Redemption and Transformer movies.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-10, 14:31

If you watch really, really, really, really, really, really, really closely, then you will notice that his ship went down. I mean, it's totally obvious if you know what to look for amongst the many thousands of digital artifacts floating around in that mess!


Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-10, 18:24

You said you liked this movie, but here lately you've been hammering it as much as I have (well, maybe not that much; I simply don't think that's possible ). Are you finally coming to your senses and seeing it for the lazy, disjointed and uninspired piece-of-shit it is, or were you kinda in the throes of holiday-period joy and revelry, primed to like anything you saw due to the period it was released/you saw it (I've done that before, at the multiplex with out-of-town friends and/or family around Christmas and the joy/excitement of all that made the movie seem better than it probably really was)?

Are you seeing it with clearer, more discerning eyes now that the excitement/hype around its release (pretend there was some ) has waned?

Because your last few posts aren't lining up with your initial reaction from a couple of weeks ago.

Just curious.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-01-11, 01:22

1) Me liking a movie does not make it perfect.

2) I loved the movie as a standalone Star Wars movie. I hated it as part of a much larger and more glaring flaw in the entirety of the sequel trilogy. I'm not saying there aren't mistakes. There are mistakes in every movie (Hell, I can pick apart Episode IV until the cows come home. It's just that I give that movie more leeway due to immature special effects, cameras, budget, nostalgia, etc.).

Flaws like the one mentioned in my last post are not flaws worth caring about. I tried to hit the sarcasm button, but missed it. The detail of that particular character's demise wouldn't be noticed by anyone were it not for some random article making a big issue out of something that wasn't a big issue until it was. This is nit-picky at best. In fact it is entirely unnecessary. That character (Num-Num or whatever his name is) had an entire 12 seconds of screen time in ROTJ. It's not like he was "original cast" or anything. Just a bit-part played by a guy in a mask. Now, suddenly, he's a long-time favorite killed off for no reason?

Besides that, heroes die. It's not like the actors live forever. I mean, come on! These dolts used BS footage and CGI of Carrie Fisher in a desperate attempt to keep Leia alive as long as possible, and we're getting our fur in a knot over Num-Num?

If I had my way, the old heroes would all die in the span of these three movies (I would have killed off Lando and the Falcon in ROTJ), and they would all go down fighting for the cause just as Num-Num did. He just went down in a random explosion in the midst of a titanic battle, much like real heroes do. If the heroes don't die sometimes, then the value of the fight is cheapened. In war, people die! Sometimes, the best people die! Num-Num isn't merely "killed off". He died fighting for a cause he believed in, and that matters! I had no idea he died, but now that I do the sacrifice becomes more real. One of the best and most moving scenes in Rogue One was when Cassian and Jyn died! It made their sacrifice believable; it made the whole story believable. Wedge is one of my favorite characters (he spans all three originals) and I would have had him die, too! He would have given his very last effort to save a ship or a person or something. He would have died for the cause because he believed in it! And we would have all felt something for him, because we would empathize with what he fought for. It would resonate. There is no peace and freedom unless good guys give their lives for it.

P.S. I don't do xmas, so that has noting to do with anything.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-01-11, 07:05

Heathen.




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