[Doxxic]

Mac OS X has gotten more sizzly and colorful each and every release.

For a while, it didn't seem like that: iTunes 7 shows the total opposite.
It seemed to follow the trend set by Ableton live: 2 dimensional interface elements and easy color schemes.
I surely expected Leopard as a whole to continue that way, even if it were just to be different from Vista and make the latter quickly look out-dated.

But Apple has chosen to do that differently, namely by raising the bar of graphic fanciness, to a degree where you can debate wether or not form is starting to reign over substance.

The funny thing is that someone at Rogue Amoeba has noticed the same trend in the whole Mac Developer scene, calling it the Delicious Generation.

It makes me wonder to wat degree with Leopard, Mac OS X is starting to feel like an overdressed christmas tree.

Am I the only one who never uses cover flow in iTunes and doesn't see much need for it in Finder?
Who else gets a little itchy when he looks at all the dreamy perfect themes that are provided with iLife, and now with Mail?
Who else wonders why stacks have to fan out the way they do, instead of staying straight?
Why does the Dock mirror what's behind it?
What's the use of a transparent menu bar?

All in all, elegance and minimalism were far from the first words that came to my mind when I saw the Leopard presentation...

What do you think?

[trevo]

Yes, yes and yes.

Tiger is the most professional looking and functional OS I've come across and I would like it to stay that way. I hope Leopard is really adjustable, just to tone down the Vista'ness.

I have mixed feelings about CoverFlow. I don't really use it but I do like seeing my album art that way. I probably will enjoy seeing my images in the Finder this way as well, I may not even have to open Preview.

If you can simply turn on/off the features you don't want I see no harm.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by trevo Yes, yes and yes. Tiger is the most professional looking and functional OS I've come across and I would like it to stay that way. I hope Leopard is really adjustable, just to tone down the Vista'ness. I have mixed feelings about CoverFlow. I don't really use it but I do like seeing my album art that way. I probably will enjoy seeing my images in the Finder this way as well, I may not even have to open Preview. If you can simply turn on/off the features you don't want I see no harm.

Right. There's no use for a transparent menu bar, especially. I want to get rid of that immediately. I also want to straighten out my stacks (or just use the grid all the time, not just when there are a lot of items). And don't even get me started on Cover Flow in the finder. I think the quick preview feature is really cool -- and may even be useful -- but Cover Flow is gimicky at best in iTunes, and I suspect it'll be garbage in the Finder. For viewing pictures, though, it would be great. Why not just add it to iPhoto and leave it out of the finder? Thumbnails and quick look should be enough there.

[trevo]

Okay, I went back to check out the features. I'm getting confused between Quick Look and the new Finder.

So CoverFlow is part of the Finder, I won't use it and I think your right, looking at it again it really doesn't seem to be of much use when.... You have Quick Look! Which I actually like. This will be great for going through discs full of images, etc.

I kind of though Quick Look was the new name of Cover Flow in the Finder that views and plays everything

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by trevo Okay, I went back to check out the features. I'm getting confused between Quick Look and the new Finder. I kind of though Quick Look was the new name of Cover Flow in the Finder that views and plays everything So CoverFlow is part of the Finder, I won't use it and I think your right, looking at it again it really doesn't seem to be of much use when.... You have Quick Look! Which I actually like. This will be great for going through discs full of images, etc.

Quick Look gives you a large preview of an individual file and Cover Flow lets you look at every file in a folder together like it does with album art for an iTunes playlist currently.

[trevo]

Right so,

Quick Look, GOOD. Cover Flow, BAD

[drewprops]

I thought that Quicklook was part of Coverflow, that the former balloons up and out of the latter. Either way, power users will ALWAYS turn off the claptrap, they've been doing it since OS 9 and before.... so nothing new here. The good part is that Apple generally provides a way to shut off CPU-intensive gee-gaws. I don't use Dashboard on my Powerbook. Ultimately you may find that these new navigation things are embraced by the common user.

Do the STACKS remind you guys of Pokey from the Mario games??

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by poodrops Do the STACKS remind you guys of Pokey from the Mario games??

I hadn't thought of that yet, but that's a pretty good point. You magnificent basturd.

[SledgeHammer]

Everyone is saying "coverflow bad!" but I don't really get what all the griping is about. Yes, I was a little disappointed by the keynote, but that doesn't mean the things that were announced are crap. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you never go into Coverflow view, it's no different than if it simply weren't there.

I for one am very excited about coverflow in Finder. I have thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of photos and other pictures on my computer. I go through them often looking for a particular picture that I want to use in a project or upload to my blog. Finding the specific photo usually involves clicking through things one at a time in column view or with the icons blown up big to see a preview of it, and even then I usually end up opening pictures in GraphicConverter to make sure it is definitely the one I want. Coverflow and quick look are going to make that task endlessly less tedious.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by trevo Right so, Quick Look, GOOD. Cover Flow, BAD

Huh, I dunno. I frequently have folders with PDFs in them of research papers. For some reason, I can visually recognize a paper's title page faster than I can remember the title, in many cases. I've wanted something like CoverFlow for my documents since I first saw it in iTunes... I think it may become my #2 Finder view.

[Majost]

Originally Posted by fcgriz Cover Flow is gimicky at best in iTunes, and I suspect it'll be garbage in the Finder.

Really? I can actually see Cover Flow being very useful in the Finder... but it I agree it's just gimmicky in iTunes.

Also... someone over at Macrumors claims to be at WWDC; s/he says that while you can turn the Menu Bar transparency off, the transparency helps get it out of your way.

As far as stacks go, I think they look promising. The one thing that looked 'wrong' while Jobs was demoing it was that the newly downloaded thing went to the top of the stack... which is 'farthest' from you mouse after clicking to open things up. And in the Applications stack, it was organized alphabetically. I wonder how much control we'll have over the ordering...

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Huh, I dunno. I frequently have folders with PDFs in them of research papers. For some reason, I can visually recognize a paper's title page faster than I can remember the title, in many cases. I've wanted something like CoverFlow for my documents since I first saw it in iTunes... I think it may become my #2 Finder view.

Me too. Besides some of the articles we download at our library's website are scanned .tiff documents, so Spotlight isn't much good for them.

[Luca]

The Mail themes bother me. As I mentioned in another thread, the last thing we need is more extraneous non-text stuff in our emails. I could see my girlfriend's grandmother using those themes extensively - thank god she's not a Mac user.

Actually, a lot of the concerns people are raising now are similar to those raised when Tiger was previewed. Tiger introduced some nice new features (Spotlight is great, I use it all the time as an app launcher) and some questionable ones (*cough* Dashboard). Back then people were saying they didn't like the widespread use of the new "unified" theme and the new, glossy menu bar, but now they're pretty accepted. In fact, I much prefer the unified theme to the old brushed metal look, and I think many people here would agree. At least they got rid of the bright blue menu bar end caps, right?

I just know that a lot of people (myself included) said that Tiger was too flashy and that Panther was just as good if not better, but in the end Apple hid the new features enough to keep them from getting in the way. The way I see it, Leopard will continue that tradition - if you don't like Stacks or QuickLook or Coverflow or anything, you don't have to use it, but you'll get all the other benefits of the new OS.

And actually, I think Coverflow might be useful in Finder where it wasn't in iTunes. I never, ever sort my music by album, especially since iTunes splits up albums if there are multiple artists and it's not marked as a "compilation." And I don't have album artwork for any of my music. If I can't get album artwork for ALL of it, I figure I may as well not have any.

[BuonRotto]

I have the impression that Apple has been dropping stuff to get Leopard out on time, but hasn't said as much, and most people will never be aware. I think that's why Steve ended up rehashing old news about Leopard in his keynote, and why we've already seen a few things (ZFS, screen sharing, QuartzGL, resolution independence, etc.) denigrated at WWDC. I don't think Apple's jumped the shark, but I do think that they've hit some big roadblocks with their technology.

The good news is that at least some of these things are "thinking big" things, and once they're figured out or aspects of technology can all catch up, it will be a watershed for the operating system. In the meantime, it's frustrating as hell!

[admactanium]

Originally Posted by SledgeHammer Everyone is saying "coverflow bad!" but I don't really get what all the griping is about. Yes, I was a little disappointed by the keynote, but that doesn't mean the things that were announced are crap. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you never go into Coverflow view, it's no different than if it simply weren't there. I for one am very excited about coverflow in Finder. I have thousands (possibly tens of thousands) of photos and other pictures on my computer. I go through them often looking for a particular picture that I want to use in a project or upload to my blog. Finding the specific photo usually involves clicking through things one at a time in column view or with the icons blown up big to see a preview of it, and even then I usually end up opening pictures in GraphicConverter to make sure it is definitely the one I want. Coverflow and quick look are going to make that task endlessly less tedious.

exactly. coverflow was an interesting independent app created for itunes. when apple bought coverflow from the developer, i think they made it a little bit worse. the coverflop.app was actually really cool. i think coverflow for the finder is a very good idea. when i'm looking at tons of images or pdf's it's very hard distinguish between them using only the maximum icon size in icon view. not only that, they don't seem to be organized in any way in icon view. coverflow will actually work very well for those specific cases, which happens to be a good part of my workflow.

[TednDi]

Unless they launch 10.6 at wwdc 2008 then the glossed over features (read dropped) from leopard will be released and Apple can tout its ability to roll out new OS's quicker than the competition.

[Kraetos]

Fanning stacks will bother the hell out of me. Stacks themselves? Useful. Tilting them? Augh, my eyes.

Mail themes? Gross. On Planet Kraetos, all HTML spare <b>,<i>,<u>,<tt>, and <a> is banned from email.

The jury on Planet Kraetos is still out on Finder coverflow. I can see it being very useful when browsing documents, photos, etc. Being able to see docs before they open can potentially be extremely timesaving. Combined with QuickLook, we might have a winner, but I'll certainly have to try it first.

As for the dock mirroring and transparent menu bar, I think they COULD add just the right amount of distinctive flash, assuming they are very toned down, significantly more toned down than the current previews. Hopefully, both these effects are manageable from the system preferences.

[wecallitfall]

Although i spend all day everyday working on Macs i wouldn't call myself a "power user", just an Average Joe who uses the computer for web, photos, music, documents and a bit of tinkering

From what i saw on Monday, Leopard will be very promising - in particular Stacks and Time Machine. The new appearance is most welcome - translucencies included.

And i also appear to be one of the only people who actually likes CoverFlow, i actually had it installed before it was incorporated into iTunes. I think it will definitely change the way i use the Finder, althoigh perhaps only in certain situations, e.g. photos

Although i have to admit, i don't see myself using Spaces all that often, Expose covers my needs very well

[Wrao]

Leopard looks more vista like and I think this is on purpose. Not to say Apple is copying vista, but they are trying to create an environment that will appear more... familiar for PC converts.

This has been a growing trend in Apple's decisions over the past couple years, as a stockholder I cannot complain, because Apple is doing the right thing for their business, but as an old-school mac guy, it is a little bit of a shame to see the company becoming more, for lack of a better word, 'pop'.

I do not think 'jumping the shark' is at all the right term for what Apple has and is doing. Putting their fingers in many pies, trying to bite(or byte off in this case) more than they can chew, spreading themselves a little thin... all of those things... maybe. But, as a company they are still pretty solid and they still make kicking products that we all enjoy. It's just, mac-dorks aren't the target market anymore.

[Kickaha]

And hell hath no whining fury like scorned mac-dorks.

[apple007]

I certainly don't believe Apple has "jumped the shark" by any means, but I do feel we're reaching a point of diminishing returns when it comes to Mac OS X -- or at least the point where it's harder to dazzle me. I like some of the new Leopard features but for the most part it seems like a lot more style than substance.

Let me be clear: This is an observation, not a complaint. Other than a couple of minor annoyances, I'm perfectly happy with the current OS X. The Mac OS 9 days of Claris Emailer and Netscape Navigator and Palm Desktop were an absolute nightmare by comparison.

[k squared]

Originally Posted by admactanium exactly. coverflow was an interesting independent app created for itunes. when apple bought coverflow from the developer, i think they made it a little bit worse. the coverflop.app was actually really cool. i think coverflow for the finder is a very good idea. when i'm looking at tons of images or pdf's it's very hard distinguish between them using only the maximum icon size in icon view. not only that, they don't seem to be organized in any way in icon view. coverflow will actually work very well for those specific cases, which happens to be a good part of my workflow.

I don't use Cover Flow in iTunes...and probably will not in the Finder, but I understand Apple's decision as to why it's there: to prepare us for Multi-Touch. I see a lot of Apple interface moves in this direction...starting with Dashboard and the "flipping" widget to change preferences...notice how the same action was incorporated into the iPhone when using Cover Flow in iPod landscape mode?

[Gizzer]

I think there are some pretty good things in Leopard. As with many people above in this thread, I don't use Coverflow in iTunes (serves no purpose) but I can see it being useful in the Finder. Like someone else above, I am much better at visually recognising a doc than by seeing it's filename. Icon view with the icon size set to maximum will also be equally useful now for the same reason (now that they show doc previews). I've never liked column view and these are two more reasons not to use it!

As for Stacks - I have no problem with the fanning effect. It's a visual flourish, sure, but I don't see it impacting it's usefulness. Plus, there's the grid view anyway if the Fan isn't your thing.

On the whole Delicious(TM) look to the OS: It's fine with me as long as functionality is not impacted. Looking back on previous releases: The original OSX minimise to dock/maximise from dock effect is a flourish and it doesn't impact productivity but it does make people go "OOooh"! Same for the icons that zoom out of the screen when you double click them. Then you have unfurling sheets for preferences, Dashboard zooming in, Exposé swooshing around, and the list goes on. In all cases I think the Wow factor is set to maximum but the productivity isn't impacted at all.

I really don't think Apple would ever get to the stage where they make the Minimize animation take 3 seconds just because it looks nicer...

[Doxxic]

Ok, I agree with most of you that form is at least not hurting function and it doesn't look like that is going to happen very soon.

But take a look at Time Machine's demo video, from a perspective of taste. What kind of personality does it express? You can hardly call it cool.

I must admit that something about the background has changed to the positive so it doesn't totally look like Disney World's main attraction anymore (seems like the Big Bang has just got a little smaller ).

But we got something else in place: the age old clouds in the background have started moving!

Why does Apple do that? Isn't Time Machine impressive enough by itself? Can't Apple make their interfaces just relax and sit still again?

Didn't Apple stand for tasteful functionality, that doesn't try to freaking entertain me?


(the good thing about the cloud movement is that you can see where they have cut the movie in order to make TM look snappier )

[evan]

Originally Posted by Gizzer I really don't think Apple would ever get to the stage where they make the Minimize animation take 3 seconds just because it looks nicer...

you can actually slow it down if you hold shift and minimize... same thing for expose and other animations.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Gizzer I really don't think Apple would ever get to the stage where they make the Minimize animation take 3 seconds just because it looks nicer...

For what it's worth, this feature has existed since the early betas of Mac OS X 10.0. It's probably as simple as changing the variable for the timing between keyframes. So, it's not like it's a whole lot of work.

[rasmits]

I think the transparent menu bar is surely a strong signal that Apple has lost its mind.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by rasmits I think the transparent menu bar is surely a strong signal that Apple has lost its mind.

x2

At least the blurry fonts and strong pinstripes of 10.0 still had enough strong contrast to be legible at a glance. Seeing the screenshots of the transparent menu bar over the grassy desktop just makes me sad.





Are they trying to make the menu bar hard to use? Is this some sort of message to developers to make fully-window-centric applications that don't use the traditional menu bar?

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by rasmits I think the transparent menu bar is surely a strong signal that Apple has lost its mind.

x3

I thought it looked cool at first -- that is, until I realized (like Brad did) that the menu bar is nearly unusable that way. I hope there's some way to change the transparency. Even if I have to do it in the terminal, I don't care. I just want a completely opaque menu bar.

[Doxxic]

Don't know why but to me, it gave the impression that you can make the menu bar hide automatically, just like the dock.

Which, by itself, would make some sense...