[psmith2.0]

First, that Think Secret drawing form a week or so ago was dead on. Wow.

Second, I think Tiger is going to be really nice, but I was stunned at the "available in 2005" stuff. Yikes. I just assumed, as in the past couple of years, he'd show it off today and we'd all be buying it in September.

Hard to get torqued up - OR disappointed - in Tiger, either way. As 2005 draws closer, bound to be more cool stuff coming out about Tiger.

Okay, now for the displays: I think they're really snazzy. Just now starting to poke around and read the details (that 25-page PDF is kinda nice), but I won't lie: I was completely heartbroken with a) the 17" was yanked and b) the price on the 20" wasn't lower. Psychologically, I can easily justify (and talk myself into) $999...but $1299?

I think they look nice. I love the thinner area around the display...not as much wasted space and added size/bulk. Something about that leg bothers me. The flare of it? The way it looks so small? It's a nice look, but when I first saw them, it just hit me as odd. However, it's kinda similar to that 17" Eyegonomic display I've been cooing over for a year now.

The display itself is thicker and boxier than I was imagine (and hoping for), but all-in-all, I think they're quite nice. Hell, I'm just happy they FINALLY - after an entire year - look as though they're supposed to go with the G5 (and the PowerBook). I'm big on looks, and can't help it. A company as style-conscious as Apple has been these past 5 or so years, that old plastic and clear display just bugged the shit out of me, sitting next to a G5.

Will I get one? I'd like to, sure. The 20" is what I had my eye on all this time. I won't buy it outright and on this like this - cool, luxury add-ons and nonessential purchases (iPod, Creature speakers, AirPort, etc.) I always pay for with money I make from freelance work. Just a nice little self-imposed "carrot/stick" thing I do, so I have to get off my ass and rustle up some design or illustration side jobs if I want cool stuff.

Keeps me honest...and makes me work extra for the nice little things in life. I could charge it today, but it would bother me deep down.

I'll go on into fall, most likely, and see if there are any price cuts in the next 3-4 months. Or maybe get a 4-month-old refurb, even?

The lack of a 17" makes me sad (I would've been happy with a wide (1440x900) 17" also, in this new styling/DVI set-up.

This kinda does one of two things:

a) Either the new iMac will continue to be an AIO (I think it will), or...

b) If there is a new "headless iMac" (or whatever you want to call it), perhaps there will be 15" and 17" white displays meant for THAT, rolled out upon the new iMac's introduction, whenever that is.

Just a thought. I haven't given up on the 17" just yet. Maybe it's just not going to appear swathed in aluminum and sporting a $1,000-plus price tag.

Next couple of months should be interesting, either way.

I like the new displays a lot, and if the 20" was $999 (as rumored), I would've bought it today, no question, the moment the store came back online. Something about that extra $300 just zaps the fun out of it for me, and makes me feel like I can wait...

[thegelding]

cool idea paul of apple releasing a headless iMac and 15 and 17 monitors...have them slightly different in design...pro vs consumer etc

applestore still sells the 17" in the old style...doesn't seem to be going anywhere just yet

g

[psmith2.0]

I'm just saying...you never know (although I give it, honestly, about a 7% chance of happening).

Just seems so odd that they'd boot the 17". Although I suppose the thinking is "hey, if you're not a pro, we have TWO computers - three if you count the iBook - for you with monitors already in them...and if you ARE a pro, then 20" should be the minimum you'd want".

I mean, I don't know if they'd come right out and SAY that, but I'm sure it's the current line of thinking at Infinite Loop. Sure seems to be.

I think option "a" in my post above is most likely to be the case (the iMac - in whatever chip/design - staying AIO). And I guess that's okay (I'm not buying one, either way, so I don't care). But there IS indeed a bit of a hole, but I'm not sure how important or critical it is to fill (the lack of a sub-$1000 tower/pizza box/cube, sans display.



Personally, I prefer AIO desktops (when have I EVER added a drive, changed out a card, added PCI cards, etc.), but I might be in the minority on that one.

I didn't mention this above, but I also think it's supremely cool that Windows users - if so inclined - might consider getting one of these new Apple Displays! How does Apple new stuff compare with what designers on the PC side might buy, LCD-wise? Pricing, features, size, etc.?

I'm sure more than a few will find themselves perched next to a Dell or some custom system. That can't be bad. Hit 'em with the iPod, hit 'em with iTunes. Dangle our displays in front of them, maybe show some leg - metaphorically speaking - with Tiger, a little cleavage with the new iMac, etc.

Kinda amusing that Apple's most successful "switch" efforts have been when they ditched those horrible commercials and just started making really a really neat three-pronged solution (iPod, iTunes, iTMS), and making it for everyone.

A lesson in there somewhere, I'm sure (but don't get me wrong: I don't think I'd want to go much more further than, say, iSight/iChat and MAYBE iPhoto...only because those two areas tend to suck on the other side and would benefit from Apple's approach. I DO NOT care to see OS X available for PCs. Ever. Screw 'em...they wanna see what all the fuss is about, they gotta buy a Mac.)

[EDS66]

Originally Posted by Moogs Actually, the prior variants are also SWOP-certified. You can get a brand new 23" ACD from Small Dog for $1799 now. Might be worth it if you're a graphics pro. The response time is nice but that's purely a gaming thing. You are not likely to notice it in other aspects of usage IMO. Not saying these are crummy specs, just that they seem to be rather middling improvements over the previous specs... except maybe where response time is concerned I admit.

Fast response time does not bode well for viewing angle and color quality, alas. Then again, maybe Apple has somehow been able to do it. I have got to play with one of those.

[curiousuburb]

The old 17 was 4:3 aspect ratio...
not widescreen 16:10 like the Lapzilla and iMac17

LCD cost is a function of area, and the square shape of the old 17 is larger,
therefore more expensive to manufacture than a widescreen 17.

I could see a case based on economies of scale for rereleasing the wide 17 used in iMac/PB, but the bezel and framing of the new displays might dwarf a 17 for those used to a slender iMac arm.

[Moogs]

EDS66:

Maybe. They have been known to work directly with panel manufacturers to achieve a certain combination of specs that result in a higher image quality than what you see from 3rd party panels with similar characteristics. Maybe that's what the trade-off was: contrast ratio kept relatively low in order to not degrade performance with a higher response time?

I don't really understand the physics of LCD panels that well so I could be talking out me bum, but it's possible there is a relationship there somewhere.

I will definitely wait to hear the verdict on how the new displays' color gamut and clarity compare to the prior generation before buying one. Might make more sense to get the older variant at a lower cost.

[psmith2.0]

I called the Alpharetta Apple store today, following the keynote, and asked if they'd have display models arriving by the weekend. The guy said he wasn't sure, but to call back Thursday or Friday. I will, and I'll include Lenox Mall store too.

I might be taking a ride down to Atlanta Saturday, to see these things in person, if these stores get some display models in.

I've got nothing else to do, and I'll just make an afternoon of it...



I'll go down there and end up wanting one, I know it...and be begging to buy their floor model.

[EDS66]

Pscates:

I think Apple is doing the right thing about dropping the standard 17-inch display. There are just too many other 17-inch flat panels out there that you can buy; and they are cheaper. Samsung has a 12-millisecond response time 17-incher out there. It is still a $100.00 less expensive that the slow and atavistic Apple 17.

Apple's claim to fame is the letterbox flat panel. Can you blame them for sticking to the Studio Display form factor across the whole line? I can't. I think it's a good thing. And a 17-inch cinema display would be just too small in my opinion.

Good riddance to all those square displays. Who wants them? Not me.

Oh, and yes, thank God the ADC is dead. Another Apple brain fart that has finally cleared.

[psgamer0921]

Jesus. Just imagine (if you have the space and money) if you had 3 30 " monitors linked together, you'd have a resolution of 7680*1600. ugh.....


(Is 2560*1600 the maximum resolution, or just the native?)

[EDS66]

Originally Posted by psgamer0921 Jesus. Just imagine (if you have the space and money) if you had 3 30 " monitors linked together, you'd have a resolution of 7680*1600. ugh..... (Is 2560*1600 the maximum resolution, or just the native?)

I think with what's out there, you can only do two. Although, on PCs, I wonder if you couldn't trick Matrox Parthelia to support something like that? .....

Nah.

[EDS66]

Originally Posted by curiousuburb Have you noticed the response rate of the new displays? now 16ms... fastest refresh available. They're now officially SWOP Certified (also industry leading). Colour accuracy is more important than pure contrast ratio for most designers.

Not quite. Samsung has a 12-milli refresh 17-incher out there. Rave reviews from everywhere.

[psmith2.0]

So I'm curious...have any of you guys placed an order yet for one of these new displays? I'm sitting here, looking at them and trying my best to not be an idiot (and go against everything I said earlier in this thread).



I really, really like how getting rid of that 2-plus inches of plastic around the screen has made these things seem really tight and compact. I mean, during that keynote video, when the 20" and 23" came up out of the floor, they almost looked SMALL. Amazing what getting rid of some extra plastic can do.

That 20" is only 18.5 wide. That'll be SO nice on a desk, next to my iCurve-perched PowerBook.

Quick, someone send a AppleAnonymous sponsor my way to talk me down...I feel myself getting weaker by the hour.



BTW, would the 64MB ATi card in my PowerBook (previous generation 1.25GHz 15") drive both those screens okay (the 15" @ 1280x854 and the 20" @ 1680x1050)? Any foreseeable issues or problems of any kind here (I'm not a gamer of any sort, so do not factor that in to your answer...just want crisp, clear millions of colors).

[EDS66]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 So I'm curious...have any of you guys placed an order yet for one of these new displays? I'm sitting here, looking at them and trying my best to not be an idiot (and go against everything I said earlier in this thread). I really, really like how getting rid of that 2-plus inches of plastic around the screen has made these things seem really tight and compact. I mean, during that keynote video, when the 20" and 23" came up out of the floor, they almost looked SMALL. Amazing what getting rid of some extra plastic can do. That 20" is only 18.5 wide. That'll be SO nice on a desk, next to my iCurve-perched PowerBook. Quick, someone send a AppleAnonymous sponsor my way to talk me down...I feel myself getting weaker by the hour. BTW, would the 64MB ATi card in my PowerBook (previous generation 1.25GHz 15") drive both those screens okay (the 15" @ 1280x854 and the 20" @ 1680x1050)? Any foreseeable issues or problems of any kind here (I'm not a gamer of any sort, so do not factor that in to your answer...just want crisp, clear millions of colors).

I would need to look at them first. As I said earlier, those fast response times USUALLY carry a hefty penalty in terms of visual quality and viewing angle. I own one of the better ones, NEC’s 16-millisecond 17-inch TFT monitor (1760NX), and it's vastly inferior to any of the current Apple flat panels in terms of color uniformity, viewing angle, contrast, etc. Games look good on it, though; absolutely no ghosting in fps games.

Maybe, just maybe Apple has somehow been able to deliver both fast response time and excellent visual quality in these incredible looking displays.

I would also like to compare the new flat panels with each other in terms of visual quality. Currently, in my opinion, the Apple 20-inch Cinema display uses the best panel of all Apple flat panel monitors. The 23-inch one is not nearly as good in terms of color saturation and contrast.

So I wonder if Apple will be buying panels for their new aluminum 20 and 23-inch monitors from the same manufacturer. If the 23 uses the same glass as the 20, I think I would buy the 23. It’s HD and with that thin bezel, the extra screen real estate does not translate into that much extra bulk and size.

Needless to say I will be running to my local Apple Store as soon as they have some of these new beauties on display.

[EDS66]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 BTW, would the 64MB ATi card in my PowerBook (previous generation 1.25GHz 15") drive both those screens okay (the 15" @ 1280x854 and the 20" @ 1680x1050)? Any foreseeable issues or problems of any kind here (I'm not a gamer of any sort, so do not factor that in to your answer...just want crisp, clear millions of colors).

I think that 64 megs of video RAM is enough for both monitors. You might take a performance hit when using expose a lot, but in therms of doing everyday work, I think everythings will be just as fast.

[Moogs]

Scates: I'm almost guaranteed to buy one before the end of the year. My CRT is about to hit the 5 year mark (which will officially make it unreliable as the phosphors do dwindle in intensity over time) and the thing just takes up too much space on my desk.

I will probably go for the 23" model, although entirely possible I would go for 2 20" models if I was really feeling like an idiot, as you put it. I have always wanted to put all my photoshop palettes on one screen while I work in another and now that it's my profession much of the time, I feel I could make real use of two.

But I won't buy anything until I read a couple reviews and hear from you guys and/or other Mac users who try them out first. So go ahead Paul, by all means test the waters!



I agree the thin bezel is one of the best new features btw.

[psmith2.0]

Well, I'm going to give them a few weeks to arrive at the stores (called Lenox Mall in Atlanta today and was told they didn't see any on any "upcoming arrival" list, even for demo/display).



But he said we expect to get them in about two weeks, so I'll go down some Saturday in mid-July and see what's what.

I understand why they're $1299 (I think), but man...I let that $999 rumor get wedged into my head too much. Oh well, just incentive to scrounge up some freelance work...

But if I waited until late autumn, that wouldn't kill me either. Would just like to see one in person. I figure that'll either calm me down/cool me on the idea OR really make me want it, then and there.

Could go either way.

[Moogs]

Heh. You'll probably get yourself worked into a geek-ware frenzy and not be able to resist purchase once you see one in person. I really can't afford one now either - I *don't* understand the $1299 price tag btw. Not at this point. They shouldn't be more than $1000 IMO, although the two firewire ports will be a nice addition. Still, adding a FW bus for them costs about $15 a monitor basically... that and the fact that LCD prices have been steadily declining over the last year or so leads me to believe they're gouging us a bit on this.

I really wonder how well the 30" will sell. I think very poorly after the first month (when all the "gotta get mine first" buyers will get them). I am willing to bet the 30" model at least, will be reduced in price by at least $300 within a year. You basically have to pay $4000 for that monitor because of the required card... that's fucking insane.

[psmith2.0]

Was the very first Cinema Display (22") something like $3999 when it first came out? Or am I imagining that?

[sCreeD]

Concerning the price of the 20", and I rarely say this about Apple, it's right on target mainly due to the response time of the panel (16ms). Almost all cheaper 20" panels out there are 25ms (= 40 fps). Take note of the 20" 16ms panel from Sharp. Their price $1299. And that's a 4:3 panel.

Pscates, you are correct.

Screed

[NosferaDrew]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 So I'm curious...have any of you guys placed an order yet for one of these new displays? I'm sitting here, looking at them and trying my best to not be an idiot (and go against everything I said earlier in this thread).

I'm waiting until I can go into the store and grab one.
I'm getting a 23" and a dual 2.5

My 12" PB seems dead since I dropped it off a table (and tried to install a new HD), so I think I'm going to get a refurbished 12" iBook from PowerMax just so I can get functional again (I've been a month without my PB!)

[Barto]

If the next Power Mac G5 has PCI Express ports and graphics cards, you can have as many displays as there are ports. So if you've got 2 ports that's 4 displays. Which is 4 more than I have money for.

[Moogs]

Moogs' Law: If you have to crane or swivel your neck to view all the screen real estate available to your Mac... you have too much screen real estate.

[Moogs]

Hey I got a question... now that we're DVI-based... should Apple have an "ADC to DVI" connector dongle on this page? That is, supposing we want to power two new monitors off of a card with one ADC port and one DVI port? Or, would it have to be more than just a dongle (one of those converter brick things)?

Or is it even worse than that (you have to either buy a PC card with two DVI ports and flash it for Mac, praying that it works... or buy that stupid $600 NVidia card, which evidently doesn't have the GPU juice to outperform even a Radeon 9800 with CoreImage tasks)?

[Barto]

Every Mac that Apple has shipped with dual-display capability and an ADC port has had an ADC to DVI adapter included.

Also a GeForce 6800 will easily outperform a Radeon 9800.

[Moogs]

You're thinking of the ADC-to-VGA adapter aren't you? [I didn't receive one with my G5...] As for the Nvidia card, I [screwed up.... I was thinking of the 5200, not the new dual port power card... supposedly the 5200 is relatively poor at performing the kinds of tasks CoreImage requires. Sorry].

[Barto]

The Power Mac specs page tells me you're right. My bad. I used to work in a Mac service centre and I always assumed the glossy white ADC to DVI adapters were from Apple, turns out they were from Belkin.

Barto

[Moogs]

No worries. Maybe the new displays themselves will ship with an ADC-to-DVI dongle?

[thegelding]

thinksecret has put back up the drawings they had of the new screens...dang, it is exactly the same as what came out...nice job nick

here

in my memory i knew they were close, but i didn't think it was that close....down to the hole in the middle of the rear support for the single cord


g

[Moogs]

Indeed...

[psmith2.0]

Yeah, that was pretty righteous. Closest pre-release rendering I've ever seen, in the four-plus years I've paid attention to rumors and stuff.

On a related note, any of these screens popping up in your local Apple stores yet, even as floor/demo models? Was curious if anyone's had any real-life time spent with them.

Are they sturdy and stable? I guess it'll take seeing it in real life, but I still can't quite shake the feeling that they look wobbly or top-heavy. But I'm sure they're balanced nicely...and Apple thought of that plenty, before going into production.



Then again, they've had weirder problems (Cube cracks, PowerBook white spots, iBook logic boards, etc.). Would hate to visit macminute.com one day and hear about a national epidemic of new Cinema Displays falling off people's desk when they sneezed or walked by it too fast...