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alcimedes
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2017-04-20, 17:01

Quote:
What leap in laptop or iMac design are you looking for?
From '98 to ~'02 you had the jelly bean iMac.

From '02 to '04, you had the reticulating arm iMac.

The physical design then got stuck as of '04.

'04 to '06, you had the G5's

Form '06 to '12 you had a switch to aluminum, and processor upgrades internally every 2 - 3 years.

Since 2012, there have been no signifiant changes in the iMac line, except begrudgingly adding HD upgrades when spinning drives were finally more expensive than fusion drives.

The Macbook is a Macbook Air, they're essentially the same thing, only the Macbook has way less ports to work with. What's to crow about there? What's the selling point of the Macbook vs. the Macbook Air. They're both for sale now on Apple's site.

What's the big advantage of the Macbook over the Air? I believe they default out of the box to the same screen resolution. If CPU speed/type is meaningless these days, then the difference between the two machines is basically meaningless.

If CPU's aren't meaningless upgrades in today's world, then the entire line of Mac hardware is embarrassingly behind.

If nothing else, I'd like to see Apple's prices reflect that they're selling 3+ year old hardware in most cases. But they don't.

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Eugene
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2017-04-20, 22:52

You want to be wow'ed by what has largely been relegated to appliance status. Progress is a mean bitch.

WRT to pricing, everyone is going to need to speak with their wallets then. Apple has no reason to drop prices when everyone keeps buying Macs at any price.
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chucker
 
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2017-04-21, 01:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
I'm not hoping for the general public to tell Apple what they should be working on next.
Well, no. But whatever they do do, you dismiss as not good enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
From '98 to ~'02 you had the jelly bean iMac.

From '02 to '04, you had the reticulating arm iMac.

The physical design then got stuck as of '04.
Someone's "got stuck" is someone else's "found its ideal form".

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Since 2012, there have been no signifiant changes in the iMac line, except begrudgingly adding HD upgrades when spinning drives were finally more expensive than fusion drives.
Retina is not a significant change?
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alcimedes
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2017-04-21, 09:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Retina is not a significant change?
Not really. To me it's the platter to SSD conversion for monitors. Everything is higher res now than the past, just like the bulk of machines use SSD's now instead of spinning drives.

It's not an innovation when you're riding the same tide as everyone else.

Couple it with improved software bundles, lower prices and slick iOS integration and you'd have something.

Instead, I feel like the software has gone downhill, the prices are stagnant, and the iOS integration feels like it's more about selling you iCloud storage space than actually integrating the hardware in your home.

Google is your frenemy.
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Dr. Bobsky
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2017-04-21, 12:15

What innovations in computational space do you expect? Most recent (last two decades, really) advances come in the way of software being able to make use of more powerful hardware. The hardware has gotten advanced enough -- driven by other forces, eg in corporate development of AI and advanced computational work, and server infrastructures -- that anything *new* for us as users would have already been established in one form or another. Innovation in this context is thus in form factor or lightness or battery life. Software advances may make things faster but the fundamental experience of using an operating system or writing a word document is not going to change much as it hasn't since the mid 1990s. We have got to wait until the software catches up to the hardware again to see a blossoming of new interfaces for us users. Until then, stagnant hardware improvements are to be expected as computers move into their role as white goods.
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kscherer
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2017-04-21, 12:24

Retina displays are not "nothing". They're amazing, and for another, far more important reason than just "nice to look at". They're also much easier on the human eye. With laser-sharp, super-focused images, the human eye no longer has to be "tricked" into thinking there are round shapes on the screen. Anti-aliasing, while still used, is significantly sharper and our eyes are under less strain because of it.

Also, it was Apple that put these super-high resolution displays into the market place. It is everyone else who played catch-up and follow-the-leader, not Apple. In this critical area, Apple is the innovator! Add to that Wide Color and True-tone, and Apple is leading in all important areas regarding display tech. That means our eyes are seeing sharper, more color-accurate images, and that makes for improved eye health. All the "looks great for photographers" fluff can take a flying leap. Our eyes will be healthier, as will our children's.

Apple is also constantly leap-frogging the pack in terms of storage speeds. While there are faster PCIe drives available in high-end desktops, Apple is using the fastest available storage in laptops, and have signaled their intent to switch to NVMe in desktops, as well. They have already done this in the Mac Pro, and iMacs are certain to follow with the next major update sometime this year. I hope. Maybe. Where other computer manufacturers are still band-aiding in 2.5" SATA SSD's, Apple is using PCIe NVMe which 2.5" SATA drives can't keep pace with. Considering storage tech is the last, hopelessly slow bottleneck in the computer, Apple is pushing performance in a critical area beyond what the consumer-facing competition can afford to do (or is even willing to do).

Al, you cannot call these things "stale" or whatever. Screen tech and storage tech were stuck in a major rut until Apple brought advanced, modern technologies into the mainstream, beginning with the iPhone (whose mass-market appeal forced DRAM prices down), then the MacBook Air, and now all laptops in the lineup. This is not to say Apple was the first—or even the fastest—but their constant, zealous push to add it to everything has forced down prices and made it possible for these technologies to advance beyond high-end systems into the mainstream.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like your biggest complaint is design, more even than internal power. Macs are fast! Granted, there are faster systems out there and—for serious creative pro's—way behind when it comes to expandability.

The desktop screen (the monitor, not the computer) has peaked in terms of design. There are no round displays in the future. No "see-through" Hollywood gimmicks. Touch is stupid on a vertical monitor (unless you happen to be using a POS system). The industry (including Apple) have settled on a horizontally arranged rectangle, and users are happy with this arrangement. The web and all our software are settled in with this arrangement as well. The CD/DVD are clearly gone from the Apple world, and will never return. Hard drives are old tech, and I won't be surprised if the next generation iMac eliminates them entirely, as has the Mac Pro. PCIe flash is the future of storage. TB3/USB-C is also the future (at least for the next year or so ), and all Macs are going to be shipping with it in their next full cycles.

The next Mac Mini will be pure solid-state. The next iMac will offer flash in all configurations, if it is not the only option. As far as the design is concerned, I suspect the next iMac will be thinner, perhaps space-gray, faster, etc. But it will still be based on the horizontal rectangle, wide-color retina display, and perhaps get True Tone. But it's overall shape will change very little, because rectangles!

The MS Surface Studio is very interesting (and I called it genius), but it runs flaky Windows. Worse, it runs flaky Windows 10 with touch BS. It's just more Microsoft shoe-horning and the entire thing is ruined because of it. Some say it's too expensive, but it isn't. It's priced in line with a top-end iMac and does more. I see Apple competing with this by making the iPad Pro work seamlessly with the iMac of the future and becoming the Wacom-replacing drawing tablet that creative Mac users will turn to. Basically, a wireless display. By the way, I call Apple foolish if they haven't already got this working in the lab!

The Mac Pro is the big question mark in the pond. I think Apple was a bit smug and arrogant regarding its design. They got all offended with the media's "can't innovate" comments and went in a super-cool, way-too-far-out-there design that was ahead of anything else ever attempted, while at the same time fired at a moving target they could no longer see. In short, they forgot who their Mac Pro customers were, and they admitted to it (sort of). Prior to the 2013 model, we sold on average two Mac Pros per month. Not a lot, but we were able to meet our pro customer's needs. After the 2013 model, that number dropped to 2 per year. That's a huge adjustment, and it's based entirely to the complete lack of upgradeability. Price had nothing to do with anything. People were willing to pay $3000+ for Mac Pros's before 2013. After 2013, they said to themselves, "hell, if I'm going to drop $3000 on a computer I can't upgrade, I might as well get it with a screen." and they bought a 27" i7 iMac instead.

And for most purposes, they got a better computer.

The Mac Pro, of all the systems in the lineup, is the one that needs the most help, followed by the Mac Mini. The iMac is fine. The MacBook Pro's are fine. The MacBook needs to drop to $999 and the Air needs to go bye-bye.

The new MacPro needs 1 full-length PCI slot for a removable, big-ass graphics card, 4 PCIe slots for flash modules, and 4 RAM slots, each capable of taking 64GB of DDR5 ECC. It needs no less than 6 TB3 ports and 2 Ethernet ports. The whole thing need be no bigger than the GPU requires. It can be made of polished aluminum or gold, it can be red or black, it can sit on your desk or beneath it, and no one on Earth cares if it lights up when you turn it around! The power cord prevents that from working well, anyway. Duh!! It needs to be capable of driving 4 5k displays.

Speaking of which …

It needs to launch with the new Apple Pro Display, a 5k (8k?) wonder that has a full hub on the back, just like its predecessor. It will be built to match the height of the new iMac, the color of the Mac Pro, and the Mac Mini will make one work. There will be a 21" (4k?) and 27" version and both will work with every computer in the lineup, including the MacBook. They will come with a 6-foot power chord and a 6-foot TB cable. They will be priced at $799 and $1299.

Mac Mini - $499
21" iMac - $999
27" iMac - $1499
Mac Pro - $2499

None of these prices will come to fruition, because Apple's $.25Trillion mountain of cash is not big enough.

P.S. What Bruce said.

P.P.S. Alcimedes decided this thread was about Apple cars, and it has degraded into yet another Mac spec-fest. I suggest it be spun off into one of the "Future of the Mac" threads.

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chucker
 
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2017-04-21, 12:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Apple is also constantly leap-frogging the pack in terms of storage speeds. While there are faster PCIe drives available in high-end desktops, Apple is using the fastest available storage in laptops, and have signaled their intent to switch to NVMe in desktops, as well. They have already done this in the Mac Pro, and iMacs are certain to follow with the next major update sometime this year. I hope. Maybe.
I'm guessing it's because the iMac is still available in 3.5-inch configurations, so they have to maintain SATA anyway and want to keep the logic board complexity small. Same reason the Mac mini no longer has a quad-core option — it would require changes to the logic board that would only apply to high-end configs.

"Sad!"
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chucker
 
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2017-04-21, 12:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
P.P.S. Alcimedes decided this thread was about Apple cars, and it has degraded into yet another Mac spec-fest. I suggest it be spun off into one of the "Future of the Mac" threads.
Yeah, it should absolutely be split.

Alas, I'm pretty 'meh' about cars in general, and an Apple car in particular.
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kscherer
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2017-04-21, 12:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Alas, I'm pretty 'meh' about cars in general, and an Apple car in particular.
Ditto!

Although I am trying to come up with interesting tidbits.
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kscherer
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2017-04-21, 13:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
it would require changes to the logic board that would only apply to high-end configs.

"Sad!"
And, yet, those " high-end configs" are the most sought-after Mac Minis ever made. I have one, and no way am I selling it.
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chucker
 
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2017-04-21, 13:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
And, yet, those " high-end configs" are the most sought-after Mac Minis ever made. I have one, and no way am I selling it.
Oh, I know. I got my company a Mac mini as a build server, and the price/performance ratio is… kind of heart-breaking. It was tempting to get a refurb prev-gen quad instead. And it's sad that, since then, there hasn't even been a revision.
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kscherer
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2017-04-21, 14:05

I had a 2009 quad-core MacPro (2.0GHz) that I used extensively to rip my DVD collection. I got tired of the power consumption and noise, so I traded it in and got the quad Mac Mini and a Super Drive. The Mac Pro took roughly 2 hours to rip a 2-hour DVD. The Mac Mini did the same project in 30 minutes.

And the Mini is still listed quite high on GeekBench. That there has not been another is a shame.

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PB PM
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2017-04-22, 17:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Apple is also constantly leap-frogging the pack in terms of storage speeds. While there are faster PCIe drives available in high-end desktops, Apple is using the fastest available storage in laptops, and have signaled their intent to switch to NVMe in desktops, as well. They have already done this in the Mac Pro, and iMacs are certain to follow with the next major update sometime this year. I hope. Maybe. Where other computer manufacturers are still band-aiding in 2.5" SATA SSD's, Apple is using PCIe NVMe which 2.5" SATA drives can't keep pace with. Considering storage tech is the last, hopelessly slow bottleneck in the computer, Apple is pushing performance in a critical area beyond what the consumer-facing competition can afford to do (or is even willing to do).
Might want to do some fact checking before marking these statements. Almost all the big players in the Windows notebook (MSI, Asus, HP, Dell etc) and AIO space have switched or can be configured to have NVMe drives in the last year, for machines in the same class and price as the the Macbook Pro/Macbook/iMac (not sure about work stations, haven't looked). Nothing different from Apple to be seen there. Now some of them do allow for the use of the older M.2 (SATA III speed) and NVMe, but most of them still have user upgradable drives, unlike Apple which solderers them to the motherboard. Heck some of those machines have two NVMe slots that can be run in RAID. Now budget machines, under $1000, still tend to use SATA SSD's or hybrid hard drives, but that's kind of given for budget machines.

Most of the tests I've seen don't show NVMe to be worth the price over M.2/SATA III for all but the most extreme workflows (4-8k video editing). I have an NVMe slot in my machine, but opted for SATA III based SSD, simply because I'm not doing anything serious enough to need 2000MB/s reads and 1000MB/s writes.
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Eugene
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2017-04-22, 20:50

M.2 is a physical interface. It can support SATA III, PCIe over AHCI or PCIe over NVMe.

I think the point is Apple used (proprietary) PCIe SSDs on Macs a full year before anyone else even put M.2 connectors on their motherboards or laptops, let alone ones that included NVMe support, which wasn't even finalized yet.
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PB PM
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2017-04-22, 23:07

There two physically different version of M.2, one that only supports SATA III drives, and another that supports SATA III and NVMe. Some, mostly early, M.2 slots don't have as many pins as the ones that support NVMe.

Yes, Apple was the first to put PCI-E mini cards into a consumer product, no doubt that. Intel had full size PCI-E cards for workstations out before that, not that the speed of the drivers were as fast as those supported by NVMe, then again neither were Apple's. What I disputed was the statement that PC makers were still only "band-aiding" 2.5" SATA SSD's into computers, which is just outright false.
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kscherer
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2017-04-27, 12:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Might want to do some fact checking before marking (sic) these statements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
What I disputed was the statement that PC makers were still only "band-aiding" 2.5" SATA SSD's into computers, which is just outright false.
I never said "only", but I should have said "generally", because that's what I meant. My bad.

What I did say is "Where other computer manufacturers are still band-aiding in 2.5" SATA SSD's" as in, "those companies are still using old-technology 2.5" SATA SSD's, where Apple has already given up on it and moved the entire product line on to faster storage." I did not say that none of them were using NVMe, only that they are still relying on older SSD tech across the majority of their lines, if they offer flash at all.

Some companies are offering NVMe in some models, but no company (Apple included) is offering it across the board. That said, 2.5" SATA SSD's are only optional in most of PC land, and not available at all with many systems. 2.5" mechanical drives are still the norm across the vast majority of PC offerings, including the big names you mentioned.

Apple is the only company (that I know of) that has made PCIe flash storage standard across its entire portable line. The MacBook and all 2016 Pro's use NVMe, while the older Air and 2015 Pro's use PCIe flash that is still faster than the 2.5" SATA SSD's the competition is [maybe] offering in [some of] their newer systems.

As far as the "I don't need that kind of speed" argument, well, I made it myself, once. When USB 3.0 was all the rage I argued it was just a fanboy spec thing, and that no one needed it outside the pro market. Now that I've gotten used to it (because it became ubiquitous in Apple's computer lineup) I would hate to be relegated back to the days of USB 2.0 drives. And that's the thing: By making it standard equipment, Apple is training their customer base to grow accustomed to faster storage. Everything eventually follows suit and, pretty soon, that once fast computer feels really slow because it has slow storage.

I have a 2011 13" Pro, and a 2012 quad i7 Mac Mini. I put an SSD in the pro and suddenly the 2x-faster Mini felt unbearably slow. No matter what your workflow, at some point everything you do on your computer has to look at that drive. Everything! The faster the better. I applaud Apple for skating to where that puck is going.

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drewprops
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2021-02-04, 11:04

Boom, benches!!!

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/03/appl...apple-car.html

https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/apple-car/



...
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PB PM
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2021-02-04, 11:19

So they are partnering with an auto company that makes junky cars? I also read they might partner with with GM. If so, Wow, so they want to get two of the worst auto makers together to make a car. Great choice. My guess is nobody else wanted to take the risk of making competition for themselves.
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turtle
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2021-02-04, 11:33

I'm guessing it also has a lot to do with any company willing to let Apple QA the final product would be on the low end. Would BMW, Merc, Audi, etc. let Apple have the final say in the product? No chance. They wouldn't stake their reputation on Apple who hasn't been in the auto industry since the first horseless carriage.

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kscherer
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2021-02-04, 11:41

Apple is not looking to rebrand a GM or Kia or whatever. Apple is looking for a manufacturing partner. That's it. Whoever they are, they will be nothing more to Apple than Foxconn is. Just a company that assembles the bits that Apple designs.

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PB PM
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2021-02-04, 11:53

Yes I know that, and that’s my point. Pick, possibly, two of the worst car builders in the world (outside of China and India) to make the car.
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PB PM
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2021-02-04, 12:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
I'm guessing it also has a lot to do with any company willing to let Apple QA the final product would be on the low end. Would BMW, Merc, Audi, etc. let Apple have the final say in the product? No chance. They wouldn't stake their reputation on Apple who hasn't been in the auto industry since the first horseless carriage.
Most likely. Wouldn’t want a German made car either, so that’s a relief I suppose. I wouldn’t buy an Apple car anyway, so I don’t really care who makes it. I just find the partners a bad choice. Then Again the companies that make good vehicles cannot keep up with their own orders, so adding a partner is out of the question.
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kscherer
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2021-02-04, 12:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Yes I know that, and that’s my point. Pick, possibly, two of the worst car builders in the world (outside of China and India) to make the car.
I suspect that Apple will have a plant built and their partner will simply manage the process with Apple looking angrily over their shoulders at all times. It isn't about who the best manufacturer is; it's about finding an experienced partner who can get a plant up and running and manage the process.

Hell, Foxconn wouldn't be building great quality iPhones and Macs if Apple wasn't watching over them with their own QA processes. Foxconn makes loads of cheap crap for other partners, and the quality sucks ass. If Apple's car partners aren't able to meet the standards, they will be replaced. If Apple has proven anything, it's that they can get middling partners to step it up a couple notches.

And I won't be buying an Apple car either. Got no use for internet connected doorbells, and I sure as hell have no use for the equivalent in cars.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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Bryson
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2021-02-04, 15:05

I'd argue that the reason Kias and Hyundais are "junky" is because they're designed to hit a price point, not because they don't know how to make a good car. The potential Apple Car would be much higher priced and could afford all the QA required to get it done.
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PB PM
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2021-02-04, 16:22

Just ask Koreans what they think of the brands, we get the good stuff here in the west because we have stiffer laws. If they could make them lower quality and could get away with it, they would.
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pscates2.0
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2021-02-06, 00:58

Well, well..,
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kscherer
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2021-02-06, 12:32

Makes me wonder if Apple told them not to say anything and then they did anyway, so Apple pulled out and said, "see ya!"
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pscates2.0
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2021-02-06, 12:52

Possibly. Wouldn’t be the first time. If that’s what happened, they’re stupid and should’ve known better.

What did they think would happen?

“Hey, we’re gonna publicly share some tidbits about our dealings with the one of the most secretive, close-to-the-vest companies in the solar system!”

Smart call.
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