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alcimedes
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2017-04-14, 15:49

https://www.recode.net/2017/4/14/153...nia-dmv-permit

(well, real as in they're permitted for testing in CA now)

thoughts? has this project been why Apple seems like they're dropping the ball in traditional computing markets?

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kscherer
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2017-04-14, 16:03

This does not prove the "car" is real. Since the permits are for existing Lexus SUV's, it only proves that there is some real "software testing". Said testing could be for Apple Maps data, it could be for the new iTaxi service, and it could be for a software platform Apple wants to sell to existing auto makers. It could also be for Apple buses designed to deliver employees to Apple's new campus, an automated Apple computer delivery service, or any number of other things.

But, it's probably for the Apple Car.

As for Apple "dropping the ball in traditional computer markets", I think that has more to do with complacency, pride, arrogance, or some combination of the three rather than other projects. Mac Pro engineers were not likely yanked off the job to go and design cars or car software, since the two have almost no similarities in design, use, or functionality.

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chucker
 
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2017-04-15, 05:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Apple seems like they're dropping the ball in traditional computing markets
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alcimedes
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2017-04-17, 10:11

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Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Mac Pro engineers were not likely yanked off the job to go and design cars or car software, since the two have almost no similarities in design, use, or functionality.
No, but I do think that at companies there can be the 'golden' projects to be worked on, that all the movers and power players care about, and then there are the forgotten projects, the ones no one gives 2 craps about.

I almost hope that the lack of luster out of the traditional Apple computing projects is related to them working on something totally great in a new market.

Otherwise the lack of hardware updates and improvements are pretty embarrassing at this point.

Not sure what the rolleyes are about chucker, Apple's entire computing line with the exception of the MBP has been totally neglected, and even the MBP line saw marginal improvements.

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2017-04-17, 10:29

While we all agree that Macs have been ignored for the past number of years it's not all Apple's fault. They should be using the latest hardware across the line, charging top dollar for 3-6 year old hardware is just insulting. At the same time, Intel hasn't done much either, they are way more interested to the mobile space as they continue to loose hardware sales to ARM chipsets.

As for the Apple Car, meh, whatever. Would I like to see 95% of the morons on the road in self driving cars? Hell yeah, they are morons, but they are also the 95% of people who will least be able to afford a self driving car, so...
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alcimedes
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2017-04-17, 10:31

If the Model 3 really comes in at the $30k range, that might not be true any more.
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2017-04-17, 10:41

There are two groups of morons on the road, luxury car owners (BMW/Audi/Lexus etc) who are too busy mucking around with phones or their hair, and people driving older sports cars and Civics from the 80-90's, early 2000's (aka self proclaimed "car guys") that treat the road as if it's their personal race track.

Group 1, gets self driving cars quickly, because social status. Group 2, not very likely, unless they are forced to. People in between will transition normally.
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Eugene
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2017-04-17, 17:17

Everyone mucks around on their phones. It's more likely for lower-income people to be using their handsets than affluent car owners with hands-free integration or at least something like CarPlay or iDrive.

Let's not get into dumb stereotypes.
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2017-04-17, 19:00

But it's fun to poke the bear...

Yes I know everyone messes with their phones, sadly. It's kind of a Vancouver thing, due to the extremely high percentage of people with luxury cars (even in the far reaching suburbs). I still see plenty of people messing with their phones in high end, new model cars though. I bet half of them couldn't be bothered to setup the Bluetooth, considering how many people know how to use the silence switch on their smartphones.
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2017-04-18, 01:30

With initial availability of the Model 3 as early as July, Apple is likely going to have to show their cards this fall if they plan to enter this market.

It seems to me like Apple tried very hard to enter this market, spent a ton of money, hired some of the world's best talent, and found out the hard way that designing and building a car is not an easy task, especially for a computer company.
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alcimedes
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2017-04-18, 09:20

I was hoping it might be something cross promotional, Apple's UI in Tesla's upcoming models, but IIRC, there's been bad blood between the two companies for a while now regarding poaching auto talent.

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kscherer
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2017-04-18, 11:41

I'm still not convinced that Apple is actually working on a car. Software and AI? Yes. But, a car? I just don't think so.

If Apple wants to play with cars, they would be far better off buying Tesla or Faraday Futures and then implementing their software over time.

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turtle
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2017-04-18, 13:01

I'm more convinced they are trying to figure out how to sell engine upgrades from the App Store. I also don't think of them as building a physical car but rather brains for it. Think the CarPlay but on steroids. While I'm slightly joking about engine upgrades, I'm not thinking about all the other features. Like you drive into your driveway and your door unlocks and lights turn on without you telling it to do anything.

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Last edited by turtle : 2017-04-18 at 13:17.
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kscherer
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2017-04-18, 15:22

Which is all software-driven, and has nothing to do with wheels and engines. I suspect they are working on a "platform" to market to the auto industry. Kind of like HomeKit, HealthKit, etc. This one will be called CarKit.

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chucker
 
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2017-04-18, 16:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Not sure what the rolleyes are about chucker, Apple's entire computing line with the exception of the MBP has been totally neglected, and even the MBP line saw marginal improvements.
Well, that wasn't your original assertion, and even that is questionable. How is an iPhone not a computer?

Here's the original assertion: "Apple seems like they're dropping the ball in traditional computing markets"

Yeah, OK, I get it. A dogwhistle for "ha-ha, iPhones aren't real computers".

Generally speaking, as far as computers go, they're doing pretty damn good.

They've been developing one of the best new programming languages, and evolving it rapidly. They, in March, shipped an entirely new file system, to hundreds of millions of devices, converting in-place, with little fanfare, and zero known cases of data loss. They have arguably the best mobile CPU, and it's looking like they're about to follow up on that in the GPU space as well.

And, yes, they've gotten pretty unreliable about shipping new Macs. But as others have already pointed out, there's really two aspects to that.

One is that they need to do better. (And they seem to have started acknowledging that internally and externally; cf. Mac Pro.) Beyond Jony Ive being bored because nobody will let him thinnovate the Mac Pro any more, there's little explanation for why we haven't seen more frequent updates especially in the desktop space. Mac mini, Mac Pro (obviously). Even the MacBook, for no apparent reason.

The other, however, is that "traditional computing markets" have, in fact, gotten more boring. That's not all on Apple. Maybe we'll see some rejuvenation with AMD Ryzen, but I don't really see it. The 90s' days are over — the big leaps in hardware performance, the big experiments in UI paradigms? Those are taking place in mobile, and this generation's "real men don't need a GUI" greybeards need to start accepting that.
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alcimedes
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2017-04-18, 17:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Well, that wasn't your original assertion, and even that is questionable. How is an iPhone not a computer?

Here's the original assertion: "Apple seems like they're dropping the ball in traditional computing markets"

Yeah, OK, I get it. A dogwhistle for "ha-ha, iPhones aren't real computers".
It's not really a 'dog whistle'. It was the easiest way to exclude phone and watches, since those aren't traditional computing markets.

Apple has completely dropped the ball on the Mac, Mac Mini, Macbook, Macbook Pro, Mac Pro, and iMacs. Every single one is listed as "don't buy" or "wait" with the exception of the MBP which is Apple's leader at 'neutral'.

The MacPro hasn't been updated in 4 YEARS.

Mac mini, 2.5 YEARS.

Macbook Air, 2+ YEARS

etc.

Quote:

Generally speaking, as far as computers go, they're doing pretty damn good.
Any other computer hardware manf. that went that long between hardware updates would get laughed out of the room. Those update lifecycles are absolute crap. I can't believe anyone would try to argue otherwise.

Generally speaking they're doing jack shit.

Specifically, outside of the mobile market and a TouchBar they haven't done a damn thing on the hardware side of the equation in years. That's inexcusable as the sole provider of hardware for your entire market.


Quote:
They've been developing one of the best new programming languages, and evolving it rapidly.
Yay? No reason to stop pushing out new hardware for a company the size of Apple. They should be more than capable of updating their phone lines, software products, and programming languages simultaneously.

Quote:
They, in March, shipped an entirely new file system, to hundreds of millions of devices, converting in-place, with little fanfare, and zero known cases of data loss. They have arguably the best mobile CPU, and it's looking like they're about to follow up on that in the GPU space as well.
Apple still cares about their phones, I won't argue that.



Quote:
And, yes, they've gotten pretty unreliable about shipping new Macs. But as others have already pointed out, there's really two aspects to that.

One is that they need to do better. (And they seem to have started acknowledging that internally and externally; cf. Mac Pro.) Beyond Jony Ive being bored because nobody will let him thinnovate the Mac Pro any more, there's little explanation for why we haven't seen more frequent updates especially in the desktop space. Mac mini, Mac Pro (obviously). Even the MacBook, for no apparent reason.
Exactly my point. There's no good excuse for the length of lifecycles on their entire computer hardware lineup outside of the mobile space. That's inexcusable for a company like Apple that is the sole provider of computer hardware for their customers.

Quote:
The other, however, is that "traditional computing markets" have, in fact, gotten more boring. That's not all on Apple. Maybe we'll see some rejuvenation with AMD Ryzen, but I don't really see it. The 90s' days are over — the big leaps in hardware performance, the big experiments in UI paradigms? Those are taking place in mobile, and this generation's "real men don't need a GUI" greybeards need to start accepting that.
I don't buy that the computer hardware market is tapped. It just means no one has figured out a new, creative way to utilize what's available. Apple however gives the appearance of having dropped their entire computer line up off by the side of the road promising to come back later to pick them up, but just drove off instead. Now they're starting to regret their decision years later, but it was a choice on Apple's part to leave their hardware behind, and a stupid one I won't try to defend or make excuses for.

Google is your frenemy.
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Eugene
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2017-04-18, 17:46

Here's the thing, their "Traditional Computer" sales have not suffered at all in those years. There's only been a slight taper in sales since last year.

https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/11...id-pc-decline/

And no, the desktop/laptop market is tapped. The majority of office productivity can be done on phone/tablets. The majority of "pro" work can be done on laptops. It's been a trickle down effect. Desktop computers are like the workstations of the not so distant past, which are like the servers/HPCs of an earlier era. Deal with it.

e: Think of it like this. Even if you have a use for large screen sitting on top of a desk, in 10 years what do you think will be connected (probably wirelessly) to that display? It'll probably be your phone .

Last edited by Eugene : 2017-04-18 at 18:17.
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kscherer
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2017-04-18, 18:41

Our car conversation has been kidnapped!
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Eugene
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2017-04-18, 22:51

Okay, I'll bite. CarKit would arrest too much control from the automaker while still requiring bespoke programming/design collaboration between Apple and the automaker. Also nobody really chooses a car based on who developed its autopilot...it's going to be part of a package deal. I love Apple, but I have no intention of limiting my choices to CarPlay enabled cars. The same goes for autopilot or "CarKit." Tesla is ahead of Mercedes and almost nobody else matter right now, especially Apple.

I wish we knew more about their car project...all we know is they have a less ambitious vision than before.
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chucker
 
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2017-04-19, 12:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
It's not really a 'dog whistle'. It was the easiest way to exclude phone and watches, since those aren't traditional computing markets.
Neither is a GUI computer. "Traditional" is an arbitrary euphemism for "things I'm familiar and comfortable with".

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Apple has completely dropped the ball on the Mac, Mac Mini, Macbook, Macbook Pro, Mac Pro, and iMacs. Every single one is listed as "don't buy" or "wait" with the exception of the MBP which is Apple's leader at 'neutral'.
I love Mac Rumors and all, but their Buyer's Guide is hardly an authoritative source. In fact, the only data it really uses to determine whether something is "don't buy" is previous release cycles. This is flawed in numerous ways.

They more or less acknowledge this themselves. The Mac Pro for a while had the weird, misleading "Buy Now, Price Drop" status, which they've now changed to "Caution, Price Drop Only". The MacBook Air says "DON'T BUY" at the top, but the more detailed version says, less misleadingly, "Don't Buy Old, But Updates Unlikely". The MacBook Air is dead. It's only still around as a low-end Mac laptop option. Not a current or particularly interesting one.

The iMac is arguably overdue, though there's really not that much to change about it other than upgrading to Thunderbolt 3. There's little to do about the CPUs, and they're not going to go to higher-end GPUs.

The Mac mini and Mac Pro are definitely overdue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
The MacPro hasn't been updated in 4 YEARS.

Mac mini, 2.5 YEARS.

Macbook Air, 2+ YEARS
The MBA is dead, dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Any other computer hardware manf. that went that long between hardware updates would get laughed out of the room. Those update lifecycles are absolute crap. I can't believe anyone would try to argue otherwise.
When has Apple ever cared to become more like other computer hardware manufacturers? Oh, hey, you know what they should do? License Mac OS to third parties, make a $500 desktop tower, and all the other stupid shit clueless pundits keep thinking must apply to Apple solely on the basis that everyone else is doing it. Guess what? Cargo culting isn't always a brilliant path to success.

I realize this is terrible when you run an IT department and want to plan your next hardware purchase.

Other than that, it's largely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Specifically, outside of the mobile market and a TouchBar they haven't done a damn thing on the hardware side of the equation in years. That's inexcusable as the sole provider of hardware for your entire market.
"Outside of things I personally don't care about, they don't do that much."

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
I don't buy that the computer hardware market is tapped. It just means no one has figured out a new, creative way to utilize what's available. Apple however gives the appearance of having dropped their entire computer line up off by the side of the road promising to come back later to pick them up, but just drove off instead. Now they're starting to regret their decision years later, but it was a choice on Apple's part to leave their hardware behind, and a stupid one I won't try to defend or make excuses for.
Yeah, man. I wish we'd see more of that innovation Dell, Asus and all the dead companies like Atari and Be are doing. If only Apple were more like them and thought of "new, creative ways to utilize what's available". C'mon, engineers, engineer harder!

Meh.
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kscherer
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2017-04-19, 13:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Okay, I'll bite. CarKit would arrest too much control from the automaker while still requiring bespoke programming/design collaboration between Apple and the automaker. Also nobody really chooses a car based on who developed its autopilot...it's going to be part of a package deal. I love Apple, but I have no intention of limiting my choices to CarPlay enabled cars. The same goes for autopilot or "CarKit." Tesla is ahead of Mercedes and almost nobody else matter right now, especially Apple.

I wish we knew more about their car project...all we know is they have a less ambitious vision than before.
I'm not arguing the point, I just don't see any evidence that Apple is actually developing a car. You know, the thing with four wheels and some kind of propulsion, etc. The software does not come first. It can come simultaneously, but it cannot come first. Not, that is, if Apple hopes to have an actual car to sell anytime in the next ten years. The industry consensus is that it takes 5 years to develop the hardware of a new car—the physical, rolling bits. And that's if you have the capacity to manufacture the thing once you're finished developing it. In other words, if you already have an assembly line. If you don't already have an assembly line, then that line must either be developed alongside the car, or you can add another 2-5 years to your development cycle.

Plus, you have to show your concept if you want to get people interested in your car. Auto design is very important to the consumer. This is why Tesla showed its Model 3 two years before even attempting delivery. Had the Model 3 been ugly as sin, sales would flop no matter what kind of super-powers it had. People like to look good in their cars!

If Apple's car looks like a globe on four wheels, only Google-glass-wearing tech-nerds are going to buy one, and that's not a big enough market to justify the multi-billion dollar investment that is single-model car development.

"Noises coming from a factory", engineer-poaching, and Appleinsider-says-so is not proof of car development. Hell, even Chevy can't keep the cat in the bag regarding their super-top-secret ZR-1 project, nor their even-more-top-secret c8 Corvette, or anything else for that matter. Cars must be road-tested, safety-tested, crash-tested, reliability-tested, and happy-eye-candy-consumer-tested. Established automotive manufacturers utilize top-secret test tracks (not so top secret anymore with the invention of the drone), auto-body disguises, and night testing to hide their work, and even then the secret is out long before the car is.

Basically, while you can design the car in secret, build a clay model in secret, wind tunnel test it, etc., all in secret, the car must eventually go out onto some track and prove to the engineers (and the Uncle-Sam) that it can handle 70mph over smooth-ass-pavement that transitions to frost-heave-induced-pothole-crap at speed, and then slow to a screeching halt within a couple hundred feet, all while keeping its passengers tightly constrained inside their little, aluminum and glass bubble.

There have been words that Apple has purchased (or leased) space for an assembling line, but that line is not going to be built in secret. Too much big-ass equipment like robots and overhead conveyor systems that at least one person is likely to photograph and/or report having seen.

If they are, and they pull it off without little more than a whisper escaping the project, then they will set a new standard of secrecy within the industry that has so far been entirely unattainable.

I'm not sold this is the direction Apple is headed.

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2017-04-19, 15:56

Also the taper in Mac shipments I mentioned? The rest of the industry saw even bigger declines, so clamoring for Apple to behave more like those companies is incredibly silly. Admit to yourself that desktop computing requirements haven't changed much over the past 6 years, and nor has much progress been made by chipmakers.
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alcimedes
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2017-04-19, 16:32

Quote:
Also the taper in Mac shipments I mentioned? The rest of the industry saw even bigger declines,
Didn't PC shares kick up for the first time in years last quarter?

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/11/pc-ma...-2013-idc.html

Chucker, not sure what your dog is in this fight, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around your defending Apple's not updating their entire computer line for multiple years. They're charging the same prices today for 2 to 4 year old hardware from two generations ago.

Has Apple made any significant changes to their desktop/notebook lines in the last two years? The Touchbar is the *one* thing Apple has brought to the table that's unique in 5+ years?

They haven't bothered with any new designs, or new hardware. I can't think of another period in Apple's history when things were so lackluster outside of the dark times when everyone was waiting for them to go under, and the stock was $15 a share.

Where is Apple doing well these days in your mind? Because everywhere I look, they're falling on their face. (Hardware, software, design, price)

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2017-04-19, 19:12

From the press release your article refers to:

Quote:
United States: The traditional PC market declined slightly year over year as notebook PCs saw sales slumping this quarter. After a strong holiday season at the end of 2016, the consumer PC market witnessed a comparative slow down this quarter with lower sell-out while the commercial PC market came out strong mostly backed by growth of Chromebooks. Overall, total PC shipments for 1Q17 totaled 13.3 million units.

Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA): The EMEA traditional PC market stabilized for the second consecutive quarter, thanks to strong notebook performance. The combination of backlogs, fulfillment from previous quarters, and solid mobility demand in enterprises boosted overall notebook shipments in 1Q17. However, desktops continued to erode, in line with expectations.

Asia/Pacific (excluding Japan): The APeJ market remained soft. Weakness in the consumer market persisted, as demand and shipments in many countries were impacted by price increases fueled by tight component supply. The pricing pressure was felt in the Chinese consumer market despite continuing strong demand for gaming and ultraslim notebooks. The commercial market in China performed better, driven by demand in the public sector. The education segment drove shipments in the commercial space, with several projects delivered throughout the region. India saw a rebound after the demonetization severely affected the market in the previous quarter while the back-to-school season allowed for healthy volumes in Korea.

Japan: The traditional PC market has recovered with healthy macroeconomics and an emerging PC refreshment cycle, especially in commercial, leading to the first year-on-year growth since Q2 2014.
It seems that the primary reason for a localized bump in sales is purely based on commercial update cycles. Basically the last major epoch was in the 2011-2012 timeframe when everyone upgraded from Core 2 and the first gen Core i-Series to Sandy Bridge / Ivy Bridge. The latest Skylake and Kaby Lake processors finally represent a meaningful boost in performance/dollar and many of those old machines are probably starting to experience hardware failures.

Overall consumers will continue to ditch the "PC" and commercial markets will eventually swap as well.
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2017-04-20, 02:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
Also the taper in Mac shipments I mentioned? The rest of the industry saw even bigger declines, so clamoring for Apple to behave more like those companies is incredibly silly. Admit to yourself that desktop computing requirements haven't changed much over the past 6 years, and nor has much progress been made by chipmakers.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Chucker, not sure what your dog is in this fight,
The other day, I listened to a tech podcast. Somewhere in, they lamented the bad shape tech journalism is in. Then, a few minutes later, they complained how boring the iPhone 7 is, and that they better come up with a massive update for the iPhone 8, OR ELSE.

Or else what?

My "dog in this fight" is that we're still too focused on whiz-bang features, spec-whoring and cheating on each other's benchmarks.

Nobody is putting forward actual, long-term improvements to the computer experience, and other companies continue to rest in their comfy couches, knowing full well they don't actually have to innovative, because eventually Apple will do it for them, and they'll just copy the idea. (It's worked that way for two decades now, so why change?)

What has changed is that Apple is less focused on making those leaps on the Mac, and more on iOS. As someone who spends an awful lot of time on a Mac, that's unfortunate. But I also understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
but I'm still trying to wrap my head around your defending Apple's not updating their entire computer line for multiple years.
I've answered that: "[..] yes, they've gotten pretty unreliable about shipping new Macs. But as others have already pointed out, there's really two aspects to that. One is that they need to do better. [..] The other, however, is that "traditional computing markets" have, in fact, gotten more boring."

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Has Apple made any significant changes to their desktop/notebook lines in the last two years? The Touchbar is the *one* thing Apple has brought to the table that's unique in 5+ years? They haven't bothered with any new designs, or new hardware.
I don't really know if you're arguing two years or "5+", but let's take five as a number: the MacBook Pro went Retina in 2012 (new design), the Mac Pro got completely replaced in 2013 (new design), the iMac went Retina (new design), the iMac then went to a wider color gamut, the 2015 MacBook is a completely new design and new piece of hardware, the 2016 MacBook Pro is a new design. Aside from the Mac mini, virtually the entire line-up has seen significant changes in the past half decade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
I can't think of another period in Apple's history when things were so lackluster outside of the dark times when everyone was waiting for them to go under, and the stock was $15 a share.
I'm not sure Apple's offerings were that lackluster at the time. Software-wise, they came up with lots of interesting stuff like QuickTime, QuickTime VR, QuickDraw GX, OpenDoc, Keychain. Hardware-wise, they moved to PowerPC, launched the Newton, did things like PCRE, …

I don't think it was a case of lackluster offerings, but rather poor curation/editing. So, if anything, it's that there was too much going on, leading to needless customer confusion. (Should I buy a Power Macintosh 7654? Or the nearly identical Performance 7653CD? Which, for no apparent reason, only ships to certain markets?)

Jobs narrowed down, cut down, simplified, and eventually it became much clearer what Apple was offering, and (importantly) what they weren't offering.

They're now once again on a path of becoming broader. And there's a real risk that they're spreading themselves too thin. And as someone who doesn't even have a license, the car project (if it is a thing) seems like quite an example of a silly endeavor. I'd rather they think of making their existing platforms better.

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Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Where is Apple doing well these days in your mind? Because everywhere I look, they're falling on their face. (Hardware, software, design, price)
I assume you're doing this "I'm going to pretend the Mac is the only platform or the only important platform" thing again, because I've already listed things like Swift, the A-series CPUs and APFS as examples of Apple doing well.
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2017-04-20, 09:19

Apple's next big thing appears to be making future products out of 100% recycled material (I assume they mean the cases). Not exciting tech wise, but a step in the right direction none the less.
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2017-04-20, 09:50

Quote:
I don't really know if you're arguing two years or "5+", but let's take five as a number: the MacBook Pro went Retina in 2012 (new design), the Mac Pro got completely replaced in 2013 (new design), the iMac went Retina (new design), the iMac then went to a wider color gamut, the 2015 MacBook is a completely new design and new piece of hardware, the 2016 MacBook Pro is a new design. Aside from the Mac mini, virtually the entire line-up has seen significant changes in the past half decade.
So with the exception of the Mac Pro which got an actual design change, the only significant change to the entire Apple desktop/notebook line were to increase the screen resolution, and to drop useful ports. How is a screen rez. bump at all significant? That's incremental, expected stuff.

Quote:
the 2015 MacBook is a completely new design and new piece of hardware
It's the exact same design as before, just swapping the function keys for the touch bar, and removing all the regular ports for USB-C and dongles everywhere. That was not a step forward, it was a side-step at best.

Quote:
like Swift, the A-series CPUs and APFS as examples of Apple doing well.
Outside of programming circles Swift is meaningless.

For the A-series, aren't a variety of hardware manufacturers using arm processors in mobile devices? I know Apple has their own special implementation, but that's another 'difference' that basically doesn't register for 95 out of 100 people.

APFS is another improvement that carries little to no weight with the general public. Yay, but what does it matter in a day to day, practical how I use my device sense? It doesn't.

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Last edited by alcimedes : 2017-04-20 at 11:14.
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2017-04-20, 13:40

What leap in laptop or iMac design are you looking for? Touch isn't it. Nobody knows how to get touch working in the Windows or macOS desktop environments.

You keep going on and on about the general public and what they care about, but you seem the furthest removed from their actual opinions. The general public has spoken and they don't care about PCs/Macs. They're just appliances you buy when your old one fails.
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2017-04-20, 15:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
So with the exception of the Mac Pro which got an actual design change, the only significant change to the entire Apple desktop/notebook line were to increase the screen resolution, and to drop useful ports. How is a screen rez. bump at all significant? That's incremental, expected stuff.
This is just silly. You continue to pretend the MacBook isn't a thing, and you also apparently think the MacBook Pro "increased the screen resolution and dropped useful ports".

That's like saying the Titanium PowerBook G4 increased the processor speed and dropped expansion bays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
It's the exact same design as before, just swapping the function keys for the touch bar, and removing all the regular ports for USB-C and dongles everywhere. That was not a step forward, it was a side-step at best.
I'm not convinced you know what the MacBook is. It's basically the replacement for the MacBook Air. It doesn't have a Touch Bar. It's not the same design as anything before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Outside of programming circles Swift is meaningless.
Outside of nerd circles, your demands are meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
For the A-series, aren't a variety of hardware manufacturers using arm processors in mobile devices? I know Apple has their own special implementation, but that's another 'difference' that basically doesn't register for 95 out of 100 people.
Apple's ARM chips are far ahead of the competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
APFS is another improvement that carries little to no weight with the general public. Yay, but what does it matter in a day to day, practical how I use my device sense? It doesn't.
What Eugene said.
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2017-04-20, 16:49

I'm not hoping for the general public to tell Apple what they should be working on next.

I'm waiting for the Apple of years past that would show up and wow us with what their tech can be used for.

Google is your frenemy.
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