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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2021-02-11, 20:16

I will take the shot the first moment I can get it. Sign me up.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2021-02-11, 21:22

Nobody is going to convince anti-vaccination types to take something that could save their life. They will always find something, whether it be made up (by someone), or half truth, that will fit their ideology. That's fine, that is their choice. The thing is, people seem to forget that in life there are consequences for the choices they make. The rest of society can choose not to allow them to take part. It goes both ways.

Last edited by PB PM : 2021-02-12 at 00:25.
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2021-02-11, 23:50

Absolutely. I don't care *WHY* someone chooses to voluntarily opt out of helping protect and care for other people around them, they can be opted out of society at the same time.

No schooling, no shopping, just... go elsewhere and don't be a danger to others. Go in peace, but just for the love of god, go.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-02-11, 23:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
I'm not a scientist personally, and I don't know the ins and out of vaccine production. But I didn't say the vaccine was made with the cell lines, I said they were tested on them. And I believe that is completely true. From a culture where we outlaw testing of consumer products on animals, it is kind of strange to be arguing that it's totally kosher to be sourcing cell lines from the remains of aborted children.
did you even read your linked document? The most common vaccines are 'totally kosher' according to the pro-life organisation blah blah.

Cell lines are not living people; they are for the most part not derived from living people (aside from HeLa, which has a truly unfortunate and racist story behind it).

Quote:
I doubt the unborn child has consented to the donation. And when you say it's fine because the "owner" of the property has consented, it certainly has the ring of the kind of thing they used to say during slavery. It's either a human life or it isn't, and since large numbers of people believe that it is one, isn't it reckless to be poking them in the eye needlessly when we need the vaccine to be widely accepted?
Tissue from which these lines were derived were taken from dead organisms. It isn't life at all.


Quote:
One last thing: Was the tissue really obtained after the "thing", as you put it, had died?
Yes they were dead. Even that opinion piece acknowledges that they were extracted within five minutes after death, the story that the author invents is a hypothetical that did not happen about a c-section. Notably the language used in that quote isn't saying at all that this actually happened.
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tomoe
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2021-02-12, 22:58

Mom also got notified today for a vaccine appointment. Makes me happy to know that both parents and my grandma are all getting.
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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-13, 02:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Nobody is going to convince anti-vaccination types to take something that could save their life.
Not everyone who questions the Covid vaccines is an anti-vaxxer. Certainly pro-life groups have more than a passing interest in the health care system (and they own a lot of ultrasound machines). Anti-vaxxers overall have tended to be more secular than religious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky View Post
did you even read your linked document? The most common vaccines are 'totally kosher' according to the pro-life organisation blah blah.

Cell lines are not living people; they are for the most part not derived from living people (aside from HeLa, which has a truly unfortunate and racist story behind it).

Tissue from which these lines were derived were taken from dead organisms. It isn't life at all.

Yes they were dead. Even that opinion piece acknowledges that they were extracted within five minutes after death, the story that the author invents is a hypothetical that did not happen about a c-section. Notably the language used in that quote isn't saying at all that this actually happened.
Yes, I get your points. (Hey, the PDF has been disappeared.)

I'm just looking at some of the arguments I'm hearing from pro-lifers and concerns being relayed on the comment threads of some Christian sites. Thanks to our government's spectacular bungling of the vaccine file, I won't need to make a decision on taking it for several months. The consensus in the overall Christian community seems to be that despite whatever distant links the science may have had to abortion, taking the vaccine is still pro-life as it will definitely save lives.

But my initial point was that abortion is just a bit of a contentious issue right now all over the world. If a significant minority of the pro-life community decides to boycott, herd immunity is toast in many places. A publicly-funded vaccine development program should have steered clear of anything that could have made taking the jab contentious, for all our sakes.
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-02-13, 04:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
Anti-vaxxers overall have tended to be more secular than religious.
Christian Scientists would disagree. But there's an overall direct correlation with anti-Vax sentiments in North America and Religiosity, and this can be directly tied to Christian fundamentalism bleeding into politics and the admixture then rejecting scientific consensus and facts as subservient to their political-'religious' will (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...78023120977727 ).

There is no major religious group that outright rejects vaccines (with exceptions notable in sects and cults within these), and so the perversion we see in NA is weird.

Last edited by Dr. Bobsky : 2021-02-13 at 07:02.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2021-02-13, 11:12

Every anti-vaxxer I’ve met is a fundamentalist Christian, or someone who grew up in that setting. Small data set no doubt, but that is my experience. I also know Christian’s who are first in line for vaccinations (I know many who work in the medical field), so I’m not going to try and say this is some black and white issue.

To me it’s not a religious issue, but an issue of selfishness. People who refuse to take steps to help those around them are selfish, no if ands or buts about it. I don’t care about your moral objections. If you object to the method used to make vaccines, then work to support companies that develop them in a way that you approve of, don’t just opt out.
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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-13, 17:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky View Post
Christian Scientists would disagree. But there's an overall direct correlation with anti-Vax sentiments in North America and Religiosity, and this can be directly tied to Christian fundamentalism bleeding into politics and the admixture then rejecting scientific consensus and facts as subservient to their political-'religious' will (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...78023120977727 ).

There is no major religious group that outright rejects vaccines (with exceptions notable in sects and cults within these), and so the perversion we see in NA is weird.
Yes, there's a concentration in smaller cults and sects that offshoot from Christianity, and I expect from the Scientologists etc.
I'm honestly not sure what the Amish think about vaccinations in general. I'm guessing they're not big on mandatory Covid vaccines.

I think the issue here is that secular or religious groups that lean towards authoritarian leadership or ideals tend to be anti-vax. Because secular humanists see the Church and the Bible as authoritarian, they expect that Christians would be heavily anti-vax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Every anti-vaxxer I’ve met is a fundamentalist Christian...
And this idea persists, although no one can seem to name any major figure in North American Christendom that is telling people not to vaccinate. There's plenty of hesitancy and skepticism about the expedited process, but that's not unique to Christianity.

Most of the leading voices in our culture that have fed the anti-vax movement aren't Christian.
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-02-13, 19:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Most of the leading voices in our culture that have fed the anti-vax movement aren't Christian.
Except most are actually Christian

And every anti-vax argument I see online has some Christian concept behind it akin to the Christian Scientists arguments that praying can make all things better.

Antivaxers are not authoritarian -- if anything their belief system exudes the opposite message. They are anti-Science. And that is why secular humanists think that Christians are a stone's throw from being anti-Vax...

Last edited by Dr. Bobsky : 2021-02-13 at 19:20.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2021-02-13, 20:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
And this idea persists, although no one can seem to name any major figure in North American Christendom that is telling people not to vaccinate.
In my case it’s not a idea, it’s a fact. All the anti-vaxxers I know are self proclaimed Christian’s, typically from extremely conservative backgrounds. Don’t know any from more liberal denominations. I doubt many pastors would say it in public anyway, for fear of the backlash. I’ve yet to personally meet a anti-vaxxer who was a pastor, but I avoided super conservative churches. Doesn’t mean that many anti-vaxxers aren’t Christian’s though. I don’t doubt there are secular anti-vaxxers, I just don’t know any myself, and I don’t pay attention to the personal life of Hollywood folks.
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Yontsey
*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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2021-02-13, 22:47

I was kinda hoping I'd get a fast pass since I had a major medical situation 2 years ago but I doubt that happens. I'm not upset. I go back to the doc in April for another checkup so I'll inquire then.

Die young and save yourself....
@yontsey
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