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Everything Is Outter In Texas
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Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-16, 16:22

What's going on in Texas is unreal.

We deal with snow and ice storms all the time up here, and I have to say even here everything the government touches is eventually held together with bubble gum and duct tape.

I'm no electrician, and I'm happy to be schooled here. Can anyone explain to me why it's not absolutely standard in the electrical code for all homes to have a 'pass-through outlet' (my term) where you could plug a generator (gas/solar/other) outside and it would feed maybe four to six inside outlets? In these rare cases, you could easily plug in your fridge, furnace, hot water tank and charge your phone.

Emergency generators are ridiculously cheap. Most people don't need a $5000 always-on Generac. People don't keep them on hand because they have no easy way to use them. And they keep hearing about people dying as a result of them. The government encourages citizens to lean solely on huge centralized systems, and then lets them down time and again.

Watching people freeze to death or die of carbon monoxide poisoning in this day and age is insane. No one in government or the utilities will be fired over this, even in Texas. Since we're all paying a lot for civic emergency bureaucracies and no-one seems ready for an actual emergency, people need to start being jailed.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-16, 16:46

A saw a thing online where the downtown Houston skyline was all lit up/glowing (most buildings empty/unused at night), while, in the foreground, were darkened, powerless houses likely full of cold, miserable people.

Something seems very off in that. I don’t know how cities and grids work, and I want to believe if there was an easy, safe and quick way to route that stuff from downtown to elsewhere they’d be doing it. I hope.

Logistics/utility workings aside, it was an eye-opening picture. Dark residential homes with no power or heat while a big downtown skyline was lit up like Vegas on July 4, and mostly unoccupied.

An awful visual, if nothing else. Like dying of thirst, right next to the ocean.

In 2021, I’m constantly astounded/surprised/infuriated at how some things still happen and take place, as though it’s 1942. Or even 1842.

My friend in KC had a high of 0 yesterday. A nice, balmy 0, up from an overnight low of -8. They’ll hit 21 tomorrow which will probably feel like springtime.

No, our “emergency response” ain’t always up to snuff and it’s always discovered/learned at the worst time. And it’s a two-front issue, both the government/authorities and oblivious, unprepared and irresponsible citizens. How do people not have batteries, candles, flashlights and just basic stuff like that. All available at Dollar Tree. $2-3 goes a long way there, at least allowing you to find your way around, run a radio, etc.

At least strive to be that prepared.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2021-02-16 at 17:05.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-02-16, 17:43

As the grid reaches out to urban areas, a single blown transformer will kill power to an entire neighborhood while the one next to it is up and running and everyone is taking hot baths and getting drunk.

FYI: Downtown grids are typically buried beneath the street where they are sheltered from freezing rain and big snowfalls (as per government edict, not rich and famous privilege), while urban grids tend to be exposed as power-lines that are susceptible to the elements (this is determined by the expense of digging ditches vs. the ease of distribution and maintenance provided by power poles). Thus, you can see the lights in downtown because they are powered by underground lines not effected by the cold, and you cannot see the lights in urban areas because the lines got clobbered by ice/snow, or a transformer broke, or one of those drunk folks from the other neighborhood crashed into a power pole, etc.

That's just the way the grid works. There is no "re-routing power" because that section of the grid terminates "out there", and there is no Star Trek Enterprise-level re-routing of emergency power to life support thingy.

And, yes, have some emergency supplies laying around. You never know when he power is gonna go out!

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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-16, 18:12

Interesting. That’s more than I knew 30 minutes ago. Now if someone would relay that to everyone losing their shit on Twitter, maybe they’ll calm down and realize how things work. Because they are pounding the “wealth and privilege” (and everything else) drums.

I figured above it must not be easy or quick to do such a thing otherwise they’d be doing it. But I’m not a city planner or utility worker.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2021-02-16 at 18:26.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-16, 18:20

Also has to deal with the politics inside of Texas. Texas isn't hooked up to the national power grid. So when the cold temps shut down their ability to operate the power plants, there is no importing surplus power from the national grid to keep everything going. You get what you're seeing now. It's not just because power lines are breaking or transformers are blowing up from the ice and snow, but their ability to produce the power itself has been severely hampered.
Here is a decent twitter thread discussing how it works in Texas....

https://twitter.com/historianess/sta...61596498558977

giggity
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-02-16, 19:52

What Quagmire said is correct. Apparently, it isn't so much an "outage" issue as a "generation" issue. Because of current weather and load requirements, their grid is overloaded. Thus, they have instituted rotating outages. That means the power is out over here, and then it's out over there. Everybody gets some, just not everybody all at once.

Texas did not want to take part in federal interstate regulations, so they decided not to connect to the national grid. That is their right as a state, and I support that right. But, rights come with responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is to be prepared for power outages. They aren't, so they're cold. *shrug*

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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PB PM
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2021-02-16, 20:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
As the grid reaches out to urban areas, a single blown transformer will kill power to an entire neighborhood while the one next to it is up and running and everyone is taking hot baths and getting drunk.
Indeed this is kind of the norm. Of course in our area they have been joining grids (much larger areas per grid now) to save money. There used to be 300-500 homes on our grid, now there are over 2500. This change happened within the last 5 years, and it wasn't due to new construction for the most part. We used to have one or two power outages per year, now we have half a dozen or more. Our street, one of the newest in the development was built in the late 1970s, while the rest were late 1960s/early 1970s, is only one that has power lines that are in the ground and not on polls. All the developments in the area done after the 1980's have lines below ground, unless polls were already present. Doesn't do much to help us, since most of our grid is on polls.
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Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2021-02-16, 20:34

The electrical grid in general is a godawful mess of a shitshow that more closely resembles the screamings of micro-encephalitic bonobos suffering from late stage syphilis than an engineered system.

And on *top* of that... Texas. Deregulate the shit outta it, some dumb sumbitch down the way will invest *THEIR* money instead.

The wind turbines were not weatherized. The wellheads (petroleum) were not weatherized. The natural gas pipeline valves were not weatherized. The *refineries* were not weatherized. The *water treatment plants* were not weatherized. (North Dallas / Fort Worth is under a 'boil water' edict.)

Apparently nobody bothered to ever contemplate freezing weather, and it all came to a grinding halt at once.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-16, 20:46

This thread has turned very interesting and informative. I had no idea about any of this stuff. I feel for those stuck dealing with all this mess.

We had a high in the mid-20’s today with a “feels like” of about 16. I had to be outside for a short period to move some things and even though I had on a coat, gloves, scarf and hat, I still got cold and even when I got back inside to a warm place, it took a good while to warm up.

I can’t imagine not having power/heat on a night like this.
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tomoe
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2021-02-16, 21:58

My in-laws and several friends all live in Austin, Texas and the surrounding area. None of them have had power since ~2-3am Sunday night. This morning, it was 40ºF inside my mother in law's house, which is nuts (I'll never bitch about our place dropping down into the 50s inside ever again). Earlier today a pipe froze & burst as well, spewing water all over. Unfortunately, it was on the second floor, too. Fortunately, she was able to shut off the water pretty quickly.

Seen a man standin' over a dead dog lyin' by the highway in a ditch
He's lookin' down kinda puzzled pokin' that dog with a stick
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-16, 22:14

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoe View Post
My in-laws and several friends all live in Austin, Texas and the surrounding area. None of them have had power since ~2-3am Sunday night. This morning, it was 40ºF inside my mother in law's house, which is nuts (I'll never bitch about our place dropping down into the 50s inside ever again). Earlier today a pipe froze & burst as well, spewing water all over. Unfortunately, it was on the second floor, too. Fortunately, she was able to shut off the water pretty quickly.
Damn, that sucks beyond words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoe View Post
Re TikTok food hack's not sure if it's on there, but something I started doing recently that has been life changing: using chopsticks when eating Cheetos/Doritos/snacks like that. No more messy fingers lol.
Well there you go. That actually makes a bit of sense because that orange stuff adds up quick.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-02-16, 23:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
But, rights come with responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is to be prepared for power outages. They aren't, so they're cold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Apparently nobody bothered to ever contemplate freezing weather, and it all came to a grinding halt at once.
Oh, I bet they contemplated it. They just chose to spend their money on big TV's rather than emergency planning. Corporation and consumer alike are not that far removed from each other in that regard. The corporations chose fancy jets over weather-proofing, and consumers chose ATV's over a couple weeks of food, water, and alternative heat. Now they're all uncomfortable, except that the corporation managers can get on their fancy jets and fly to the Bahamas to ride it out.

The point of my earlier comment is that consumers have just as much responsibility to plan for the possibility of the power going out, and to make those plans with the worst-case scenario in mind. "What will it be like in the middle of February when the 100-year storm comes along and knocks the power out for two weeks? Let's plan for that possibility."

Then, after the storm is over and the power is back on, you can kick butt at higher levels and pay-grades knowing that you did your part.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Anonymous Coward
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-17, 00:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
What's going on in Texas is unreal.

Can anyone explain to me why it's not absolutely standard in the electrical code for all homes to have a 'pass-through outlet' (my term) where you could plug a generator (gas/solar/other) outside and it would feed maybe four to six inside outlets? In these rare cases, you could easily plug in your fridge, furnace, hot water tank and charge your phone

The "pass through" outlet should absolutely not be in the code. The average person is not an electrician and cannot be relied on to made sure that what he or she is doing is safe.

To use a "pass through" outlet, the system must be isolated from the commercial power grid. Any current that flows back through the electrical power grid, even though it seems to be dead, is a hazard to any utility workers that are working on the power grid equipment. They might do all the proper checks before working on the equipment to ensure they are electrically safe, but if after they do their checks, someone supplies current and voltage from an unregulated source, their checks may no longer be valid.

Of course, the answer is that when using a "pass-through" outlet, the house main breaker must be opened before plugging a source into the "pass-through" outlet. But, can we rely on every person using such a "pass-through" outlet to think to open the main breaker? There are auxiliary panels for sale (see the link below) which allow you to plug in an alternate power source and supply a limited number of breakers from the power source while isolating those breakers from the mains power. What would be written into the electrical code would be a requirement to install such a device, not just allowing use of a "pass through" outlet.

In fact, some people probably do utilize a "'pass through" outlet, so it is not really a matter of including it in the electrical code. People would have to know what to do. Perhaps it even seems like a "common sense" thing that might work.

If someone were to use a "pass through" outlet, it is absolutely necessary to open the main breaker, but it is also a good idea to open the unused, or non-vital breakers in the panel. However, it is also likely a fire hazard because the wires to the outlet being used for the alternate supply may not be of sufficient gauge to handle all the current. The wire is usually sized to handle the expected load for the outlet, but with the "pass-through' outlet, the wire is handling loads for a number of outlets. So, if there was a provision in the electrical code for a "pass-through" outlet, it would be to designate a specific outlet for the supply and would require the outlet to be wired with a minimum or greater gauge wire.

It is more likely that the electrical code would prohibit the "pass through" outlet rather than making it a standard.

P.S. not a real electrician

This is an example of a transfer switch for use with an emergency power supply. (I did not do a comparison search, but from past experience, there are models available for 3/5 of the price of this unit or less.)

Last edited by Anonymous Coward : 2021-02-17 at 00:50.
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-02-17, 01:03

I have been largely out of the loop - where is the best coverage of what's unfolding in Texas? Weather Channel? One of my cousins was sidelined on her way home and she and her husband spent a night in a fire station and then had to be taken home by someone else in a 4-wheel drive vehicle, to endure these rolling blackouts.

...

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tomoe
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2021-02-17, 01:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
I have been largely out of the loop - where is the best coverage of what's unfolding in Texas? Weather Channel? One of my cousins was sidelined on her way home and she and her husband spent a night in a fire station and then had to be taken home by someone else in a 4-wheel drive vehicle, to endure these rolling blackouts.

...
Dang. Hope they made it home safely.

Can't speak for others, but for myself:

Seen a man standin' over a dead dog lyin' by the highway in a ditch
He's lookin' down kinda puzzled pokin' that dog with a stick
  quote
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-17, 02:25

Grid refurbishment tends to languish. In 2003 we had a massive blackout across parts of North Eastern US, Ontario Canada and Quebec Canada. Ontario was particularly hard hit. The Ontario provincial government of the day (about to lose office a few months later) had done what right wingers typically do - deregulate and defer/cancel investments. The successor government which lasted the next 15 years spent billions refurbishing transmission capacity, transformer stations, and cogeneration, but outside of policy wonks, no one knows that this is where the money went because the general public mainly consumed the partisan opposition attack that increased costs and expenditures were a result of a “green energy act” that heaped expensively subsidized green power onto the energy mix. This remains a complete fallacy that was never born out by the numbers. Yes, the per unit cost of some green projects was very expensive in the initial stages, when compared to conventional generation, and was subsidized in order to create a marketplace to launch them and diversity the grid, but as an overall component of the mix they were (and remain) so small a percentage that they scarcely impact consumer rates. Solar accounts for 2% of the grid, for instance. No matter, the tag stuck. People came to feel they were paying for social engineering when if you look back, they did pay a lot, but did so for honest to goodness electrical, structural, mechanical and civil infrastructure, NOT, green energy. The right wing party returned to power in 2018 and promptly cancelled “green energy projects” it will be interesting to see, in a few years time, what level of infrastructure maintenance expenditure they sustain. Will they invest in the not so sexy stuff, or simply let it languish as happened from 1995-2003?

.........................................
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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-17, 02:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
The electrical grid in general is a godawful mess of a shitshow that more closely resembles the screamings of micro-encephalitic bonobos suffering from late stage syphilis than an engineered system.

And on *top* of that... Texas. Deregulate the shit outta it, some dumb sumbitch down the way will invest *THEIR* money instead.

The wind turbines were not weatherized. The wellheads (petroleum) were not weatherized. The natural gas pipeline valves were not weatherized. The *refineries* were not weatherized. The *water treatment plants* were not weatherized. (North Dallas / Fort Worth is under a 'boil water' edict.)

Apparently nobody bothered to ever contemplate freezing weather, and it all came to a grinding halt at once.
Yes, our grid is bubble gum and duct tape.
A really strong solar flare or a fallen tree branch can send us on a brief trip to the dark ages fast.

What's amazing is that Conservatives want to secure the grid from EMPs and China, Moderates want to build out infrastructure, and Liberals want to convert the country to electric cars and clean energy.

And we still, for some insane reason, can't get this done. The Philippines managed to put most of their electrical infrastructure underground a few years back, and North America is stalled on a renewed electric grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous Coward View Post
The "pass through" outlet should absolutely not be in the code. The average person is not an electrician and cannot be relied on to made sure that what he or she is doing is safe.

This is an example of a transfer switch for use with an emergency power supply. (I did not do a comparison search, but from past experience, there are models available for 3/5 of the price of this unit or less.)
Just to be clear, I'm asking about a simple electrical outlet that runs inside to outside. Your furnace and other appliances would be unplugged from the house wiring and plugged into the generator outlet. Something like this.

I'm aware that always-on generators require you to disconnect the breaker panel, and most people aren't messing with that. I don't think any integration with the home electrical panel would be necessary for this. You could just plug in a generator or Car Generator outside, and be safely limited to the four powered outlets inside.
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Anonymous Coward
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-17, 03:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
Just to be clear, I'm asking about a simple electrical outlet that runs inside to outside. Your furnace and other appliances would be unplugged from the house wiring and plugged into the generator outlet. Something like this.

I'm aware that always-on generators require you to disconnect the breaker panel, and most people aren't messing with that. I don't think any integration with the home electrical panel would be necessary for this. You could just plug in a generator or Car Generator outside, and be safely limited to the four powered outlets inside.
Thank you for clarifying your comment. Just as transfer switches were not common items until recently, I believe the same might be true for the "through-the-wall' device, since I was not familiar with it. In fact, doing a search for that item on the U.S. Home Depot site does not show that or any similar device. Of course, I found it on eBay and Amazon. Another curiosity is that I could not find the item on the manufacturer's site (Reliance Controls), but I admit that sometimes I have trouble with searches like that. (Edit: found it on U.S. Home Depot with a search engine, but the device is unavailable at stores and out of stock online.) (Edit 2: similar situation at Lowes U.S., unavailable online and not in stores, but has favorable reviews from Lowes Canada, including one that said it was only available in a 3 pack.) (Edit 3: Finally found the item on the manufacturer's site. The search function didn't seem to work earlier entering the item number but does now. The only other way to find it is by clicking an illustration on the home page, but it is not listed in the "Products" drop down menu or submenus. The company news site says it did not introduce the transfer switches until 1983, which is probably why I was unaware of them until recently.) Also, curiously, these devices are not available at Tractor Supply or Harbor Freight, possibly because they only have U.S. locations, as far as I could find.

While this device is at least half the cost of a transfer switch, my opinion is that people would probably be more comfortable with the convenience of being able to use a switch to power their essential devices rather than having to run extension cords or move their equipment to the vicinity of the pass through outlets. Even if they had the extension cords in place, staged for emergency use, they would still have to move things in order to unplug them from the wall and into the extension cord (thinking of something like a refrigerator which usually is plugged into an outlet behind the unit).

Reading reviews, some people seem to prefer this through-the-wall kit because it is less expensive than a transfer switch, but practical experience is not mentioned (most comments cite ease of installation but not how easy it is to use when the power actually goes out and emergency lights have to be used to switch things around to power the essential devices). The device seems limited in that it cannot readily be used for all generators (depending on the output, the generators have different style plugs) so the user must know to have to proper adapters on hand, if necessary.

Back to the electrical code, since there are different ways of accomplishing the task of connecting an emergency power supply, the code would not likely be restrictive in requiring a specific solution (favoring the through-the-wall over the transfer switch or alternate methods that may be available now or in the future).

Also, consider that many people are thrifty enough to not bother with the extra expense of the through-the-wall kit when portable generators already have outlets. So, it can be considered just for convenience (counting running extension cords through drafty doors or windows as an inconvenience), I do not see this being incorporated into any electrical code.

Last edited by Anonymous Coward : 2021-02-17 at 10:34.
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chucker
 
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2021-02-17, 05:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
The wind turbines were not weatherized. The wellheads (petroleum) were not weatherized. The natural gas pipeline valves were not weatherized. The *refineries* were not weatherized. The *water treatment plants* were not weatherized. (North Dallas / Fort Worth is under a 'boil water' edict.)
I would guess if it came out that a significant amount of money was spent proofing Texas(!!) infrastructure against freezing temperatures, you'd have a fairly broad "what a waste of money!" sentiment. And, given how much privatization has taken place, you'd have a competitor spring up who doesn't weatherize, and therefore gets to be cheaper.

(Turns out the FrEe MArKeT isn't great at long-term investments. Who knew?)
  quote
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-02-17, 09:59

A few posts back I chimed in with the experience in Ontario, where it became fashionable, however inaccurate, to lay blame for neglected infrastructure costs variously at the feet of the public regulator and/or green energy. Sure enough, the republican talking heads are already using Texas to scare monger around Biden’s plans for a “green new deal”.
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Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2021-02-17, 11:11

My best friend in San Antonio hasn't had water since early Monday. Pipes are bursting all over the state—the water damage after this is easily going to run into the billions.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-02-17, 11:49

One of my clients has a DC in the Houston area and it lost external internet. This limits my ability to make things happen that need to happen. Thankfully the internal connection is still up and I can access the machines.

For the passthrough power thing I think it falls to different laws and codes here in the States vs CA. When I wanted to add access for a portable generator to my home in Va Beach the only way I could do it was to add a MBT to my breaker panel. This way when I opted to run on the generator I had to disconnect from the grid. Keeps me from feeding the neighbors and killing linesmen. I wasn't given an option to have a passthrough like you showed above. If I were to guess it is because the fireman in my freaked out who I saw it thinking of how overloaded it would be looking like something Clark Griswold would put together.

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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-17, 20:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Grid refurbishment tends to languish. In 2003 we had a massive blackout across parts of North Eastern US, Ontario Canada and Quebec Canada. Ontario was particularly hard hit. The Ontario provincial government of the day (about to lose office a few months later) had done what right wingers typically do - deregulate and defer/cancel investments. The successor government which lasted the next 15 years spent billions refurbishing transmission capacity, transformer stations, and cogeneration, but outside of policy wonks, no one knows that this is where the money went because the general public mainly consumed the partisan opposition attack that increased costs and expenditures were a result of a “green energy act” that heaped expensively subsidized green power onto the energy mix. This remains a complete fallacy that was never born out by the numbers. Yes, the per unit cost of some green projects was very expensive in the initial stages, when compared to conventional generation, and was subsidized in order to create a marketplace to launch them and diversity the grid, but as an overall component of the mix they were (and remain) so small a percentage that they scarcely impact consumer rates. Solar accounts for 2% of the grid, for instance. No matter, the tag stuck. People came to feel they were paying for social engineering when if you look back, they did pay a lot, but did so for honest to goodness electrical, structural, mechanical and civil infrastructure, NOT, green energy. The right wing party returned to power in 2018 and promptly cancelled “green energy projects” it will be interesting to see, in a few years time, what level of infrastructure maintenance expenditure they sustain. Will they invest in the not so sexy stuff, or simply let it languish as happened from 1995-2003?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I would guess if it came out that a significant amount of money was spent proofing Texas(!!) infrastructure against freezing temperatures, you'd have a fairly broad "what a waste of money!" sentiment. And, given how much privatization has taken place, you'd have a competitor spring up who doesn't weatherize, and therefore gets to be cheaper.

(Turns out the FrEe MArKeT isn't great at long-term investments. Who knew?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
A few posts back I chimed in with the experience in Ontario, where it became fashionable, however inaccurate, to lay blame for neglected infrastructure costs variously at the feet of the public regulator and/or green energy. Sure enough, the republican talking heads are already using Texas to scare monger around Biden’s plans for a “green new deal”.
This is honestly kinda hilarious, once you understand that the left-wing, green energy heroes Matsu is applauding are exactly the privatization villains that Chucker is condemning.

The Mike Harris Conservatives did a great many stupid things in office (Eglinton subway!) but it was the Ontario Liberals who sold off the public energy utility to their corporate friends.
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PB PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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2021-02-17, 20:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
This is honestly kinda hilarious, once you understand that the left-wing, green energy heroes Matsu is applauding are exactly the privatization villains that Chucker is condemning.

The Mike Harris Conservatives did a great many stupid things in office (Eglinton subway!) but it was the Ontario Liberals who sold off the public energy utility to their corporate friends.
Why do I always find that I need to remind conservatives that Liberal parties are centralist parties, generally with a strong presence of progressive conservatives on board. The left wing party is the NDP.
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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
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2021-02-17, 20:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Why do I always find that I need to remind conservatives that Liberal parties are centralist parties, generally with a strong presence of progressive conservatives on board. The left wing party is the NDP.
The Liberals under Kathleen Wynne were centrist? News to me. And I live here.

I think what you mean is that traditionally Liberals were centrist, with an abundance of 'blue' liberals in the financial community.
(America, your electoral colour scheme is wrong...)

That changed under Wynne and Trudeau. Fiscal conservatism wasn't/isn't much of a thing in the party anymore.

And trading major assets to your friends isn't exclusively conservative. All three major parties have done it in modern times.
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PB PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2021-02-17, 20:36

I don't pay attention to Ontario politics, total cesspool, sorry. Okay that's harsh. All politics is a cesspool.
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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2021-02-18, 10:40

San Antonio's utility is now telling some customers they won't have power restored till *Monday*.

What a disaster.
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chucker
 
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2021-02-18, 14:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
This is honestly kinda hilarious, once you understand that the left-wing, green energy heroes Matsu is applauding
I don't see what green energy has to do with anything (particularly since most of the failures seem to be coal plants); surely it's simply a question of infrastructure investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
are exactly the privatization villains that Chucker is condemning.
I don't follow — is your contention that privatization is fine since some center-left folks in Ontario did it, too?
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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-18, 16:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I don't follow — is your contention that privatization is fine since some center-left folks in Ontario did it, too?
No, it's that Matsu's evil "right wing party that got elected promptly cancelled green energy projects" isn't the culprit in Ontario's energy debacle. (Which isn't to say they have a golden plan either. But in fairness, the pandemic has blown their plans up.)

Privatization has its uses, and as a conservative, I think government is grandly efficient when tasked with oversight duties, but tends to lose grip on actually running day-to-day non-core activities. I understand that you think what is happening in Texas is a failure of the free market running power plants. I tend to see it (so far) as a failure of proper government oversight, particularly those tasked with overseeing the state's emergency readiness.

If it turns out that the authorities issued regulations that the utilities needed to be winterized, and the business people prioritized compensation and dividends instead, I'm happy to endorse jailing them for a few years.
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Frank777
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-02-18, 17:02

The weird thing is I'm a bit encouraged by this crisis.

Given how close they came to an apocalypse-level event, changes will definitely be made.
Texas, like Israel, tends to take stuff seriously when issued a challenge.

I'd be willing to bet that in the coming decade, Texas will build the first true next-generation electricity grid on the planet.
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