[atomicbartbeans]

So the time has come to buy my first set of wheels. I've borrowed my dad's 1987 Nova on several occasions, but I now have the money and inclination to - in typical teenage fashion - find a ridiculously cheap used car that probably needs a new clutch.

Lo and behold, Craigslist has a grayish black 1993 VW Fox in 'excellent' condition. It lived most of the past 15 years in Alabama (hence rust-free) and the owner only wants $650. I'm going to check it out (and maybe put down a deposit) tomorrow.

They're really cute, tiny cars - the 4-door weighs 2063 pounds. It's nimble, efficient, and very spartan (everything is unpowered, including the steering).





And here's a bigger pic from Wikipedia.

Of course it's no big deal compared to anything new, but I'm really excited to finally have a car of my own.

Anyone ever had one of these? Any advice?

[thegelding]

your first car is always your favorite in many ways...

hell, mine was a fucking green gremlin...god i both hated and loved that car...ugly as fuck, not comfortable, ran like crap...but i loved it dearly...

g

[Maciej]

Nothing against the fox, but spartan is right on. Including safety.

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans They're really cute, tiny cars - the 4-door weighs 2063 pounds. It's nimble, efficient, and very spartan (everything is unpowered, including the steering).

This sounds like my kind of car. Power-steering is a pointless excess in a small car. Electric windows are daft in any car. This little Fox thing looks surprisingly pretty too! How many miles are on the clock of the one you're considering?

From the Wikipedia article I see they stopped making them in 1993, so if this is a '93 then it will probably have had all the little manufacturing problems ironed out. I had a 1995 Renault 5 hatchback for a while, which was a super-simple car (with a push-rod engine!) that was an absolute unmitigated pleasure to drive and own. A near-flawless little car, with most of the common Renault 5 problems fixed because my specimen was made so late in the production life-cycle. The 5 was a similar car to that Fox, though a good bit lighter again (under 1700 lbs).

Go for it, take pictures, and in a month tell us how you fixed the clutch!

Edit: By 1995 the Renault 5 was being marketed as an ultra-affordable car for people who couldn't quite stretch it to a low-spec Clio. To cut costs Renault really took out all the complexity. For example, there were no pre-routed speaker wires to the rear (or speakers, of course). There was no cigarette-lighter/socket, though the plastic plug in the hole did hide a pre-installed 12 V cable. The Fox might be similar: 1993 is late-model, so probably really basic in terms of electronics and the like. As far as I'm concerned that's a plus, and I'd even pay extra to have a new car rid of useless electronics, but your mileage may vary.

[Maciej]

This is the place to be for any fox related questions you might have that can't be answered here. Once you buy the thing, I'm sure you'll be visiting frequently. I use to frequent vortex (for my GTI) but my activity has dwindled in recent months. I read good things about it, mileage should be good too if its been well maintained, and they certainly have devoted fans.

EDIT: forgot to mention most important thing, those older VW's were pretty reliable too!

[-m2-]

I bought an '87 Fox wagon new and it is still going strong and has never let me down. My original decision was partly based on the simplicity of the car as mentioned by Dorian (manual box, wind-up windows, manual steering, etc.) as I planned to keep the car for a long time. Still rather 'cherry', it only has around 75,000km on it, garage kept, and never driven in winter (which I don't spend in Canada) so maybe my experience not typical . I've heard that fuel pump problems are typical on Foxes (there are two), but apart from some preventative maintenance last year (timing belt, brake pads, muffler) it has only had an annual oil change before being put away for the winter.

Still, a nice little car which is quite peppy, gives good milage, and is fun to drive as it has a nice-shifting gearbox, direct steering, and handles very well. The hatchback wagon was particularly useful for me as it handles bulky stuff easily and with the back seat removed, it is even 'sleepable'.

A Fox in top condition would make an excellent first car.

[atomicbartbeans]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray This sounds like my kind of car. Power-steering is a pointless excess in a small car. Electric windows are daft in any car. This little Fox thing looks surprisingly pretty too! How many miles are on the clock of the one you're considering?

118 and change, so hopefully plenty of life left. I completely agree with you - seems like 9 out of 10 cars listed for sale are automatics with computerized everything. Yuck.

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray I had a 1995 Renault 5 hatchback for a while, which was a super-simple car (with a push-rod engine!) that was an absolute unmitigated pleasure to drive and own.

Wow, those are amazing - 1700 pounds! What was your average fuel economy? I'm hoping to get 30 mixed with this one (based on anecdotes from owners) but I bet you could easily get over 40 with something that small.

Believe it or not, I moved ALL my belongings out to my new apartment in my parents' Nova hatchback (pic) back in August - I used a roof-mounted cargo box and rear bike rack, and I definitely exceeded the allowable cargo weight capacity with probably 600 pounds of my useless crap- yet I STILL averaged 41 MPG over the 190-mile one-way trip. It's another ultra-simple, completely manual car - the only bit of electronics is the AM radio. It has 188,000 miles on the clock and it's still as efficient as ever.

Edit: And apparently, the Fox will beat it in a street race.

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray Go for it, take pictures, and in a month tell us how you fixed the clutch!

Certainly. I'm only guessing that it'll soon need a new one, depending on how gently the previous owner shifted. It might still be fine.

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray Edit: By 1995 the Renault 5 was being marketed as an ultra-affordable car for people who couldn't quite stretch it to a low-spec Clio. To cut costs Renault really took out all the complexity. For example, there were no pre-routed speaker wires to the rear (or speakers, of course). There was no cigarette-lighter/socket, though the plastic plug in the hole did hide a pre-installed 12 V cable. The Fox might be similar: 1993 is late-model, so probably really basic in terms of electronics and the like.

Yep, the Fox was marketed as such too (here's a sweet '80s commercial)... it has a tape deck and that's about it. Some pictures show a simple LCD clock in the middle of the gauge cluster, yet some show an analog clock (where the tach would otherwise go) a la Porsche. We'll see what this one comes with tomorrow morning.

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray As far as I'm concerned that's a plus, and I'd even pay extra to have a new car rid of useless electronics, but your mileage may vary.

I'd love to see a simple, no-nonsense new car too - unfortunately here in the states that hasn't happened in probably 15 years. You can thank government over-regulation of auto manufacturing and plain old American laziness.

Originally Posted by Maciej This is the place to be for any fox related questions you might have that can't be answered here. Once you buy the thing, I'm sure you'll be visiting frequently. I use to frequent vortex (for my GTI) but my activity has dwindled in recent months. I read good things about it, mileage should be good too if its been well maintained, and they certainly have devoted fans.

Haha, yesterday I read half the threads in that forum. Lots of excellent pictures and crazy mods. I loved the Fox-cum-pick-up conversions.

[atomicbartbeans]

Originally Posted by -m2- I bought an '87 Fox wagon new and it is still going strong and has never let me down.

Small world, huh? I'm still a little nervous as to the actual condition of the Fox I'm looking at, but you story makes me feel better - your comments echo those of dozens of others on the internet. I'll definitely have a few more questions for you in the coming days.

I'd actually prefer the wagon for all its cargo space, but I guess the trade-off is that mine will be a few years newer (and hopefully more refined).

Does your Fox have the analog clock or digital clock with tachometer?

[Quagmire]

You know you want to buy a Saturn.

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Quagmire You know you want to buy a Saturn.

I don't get it. What's the joke?

[torifile]

A tape deck is better than a CD player, IMO. If you've got a tape deck, you can get one of those cassette adapters and use your iPod/iPhone. CD players in cars are worthless to me. I'm glad my car has both a CD player and tape deck. Guess which one gets used more?

[colivigan]

Originally Posted by torifile A tape deck is better than a CD player, IMO. If you've got a tape deck, you can get one of those cassette adapters and use your iPod/iPhone. CD players in cars are worthless to me. I'm glad my car has both a CD player and tape deck. Guess which one gets used more?

at the cassette adapter.

For me, a CD player is useful if it is a recent model and can play MP3s. I can put about 150 tracks on an MP3 CD, and on shuffle that's usually good for a while.

No way I'm screwing around with cassette or FM adapters. Don't have time for that shit. I'll just listen to the radio.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by colivigan at the cassette adapter. For me, a CD player is useful if it is a recent model and can play MP3s. I can put about 150 tracks on an MP3 CD, and on shuffle that's usually good for a while. No way I'm screwing around with cassette or FM adapters. Don't have time for that shit. I'll just listen to the radio.

I listen to a lot of podcasts so it's not really practical to burn CDs. And a cassette adapter is much better sounding and less finicky than those FM adapters. Not glamorous in any way but completely frustration free.

[-m2-]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans Does your Fox have the analog clock or digital clock with tachometer?

The wagon came with the huge analog clock in place of the tachometer which was standard on the other models. I don't think Foxes were sold in Canada after 1990 or so, possibly because it was not worth the hassle of bringing the slightly revised model to meet Canadian requirements so I don't know if that was the case in later models. Mine has the 4 speed box (I think the 5 speed came along in 1989) but as the final gear ratio was the same, I didn't miss the extra cog as the car will easily cruise at freeway speeds at reasonable RPM. I burn around 7.5 litres per 100km in town and country driving (which I think is around 32 mpg to US gallon)

As you've noticed, the Fox is a basic Brazilian VW model which began production in 1983 and was slightly 'tarted up' for the North American market and introduced in 1987 to give VW a price leader to compete at the low end of the market. As a 'third world' model, it was built for heavy use and has stood up quite well -- you still see many on the road in various levels of cosmetic condition even though it was never a big seller.

Hope you've found a good one!

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by -m2- Hope you've found a good one!

Honestly, me too! I think VW's are great, and its always nice to know, and add another owner to the fold. Even though it wasn't my first car, I love my VW. I've owned a couple cars, and I've never had other owners come up to me and introduce themselves - other than with this VW. I've even found business cards for local VW clubs under my windshield wipers before.

Having said all that, don't get conned because of your expectations, or hopes! $650 bucks is a lot of money!

[GSpotter]

Looks like the big brother of my first car: A 1980 VW Polo for $500:

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by torifile I listen to a lot of podcasts so it's not really practical to burn CDs. And a cassette adapter is much better sounding and less finicky than those FM adapters. Not glamorous in any way but completely frustration free.

I tried a cassette adaptor in my car but the cassette player didn't like it at all. I think it's a fancy cassette player that automatically switches tape sides, so I think that's the problem. Instead, when I'm going for a longish drive where I don't want to rely on the radio, I'll take my FM transmitter that came with a headphone splitter and a AC power charger for $20 from the supermarket . I think I'd go for the CD player over cassette, but I get by fine with just the radio.

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans Wow, those are amazing - 1700 pounds! What was your average fuel economy? I'm hoping to get 30 mixed with this one (based on anecdotes from owners) but I bet you could easily get over 40 with something that small.

The engine in mine was a 1390 cc single-point fuel injection model, with just two valves per cylinder. It developed about 60 horsepower. It was bomb-proof and nice to drive, but not the most efficient engine in the world. Top speed was almost 100 mph, and it accelerated from a standing start to 60 in about 10.5 seconds (with just me on board).

But because the car was light and not aerodynamically disastrous, and had a five-speed gearbox, it usually got about 45-47 miles per Imperial gallon (37-39 US MPG) in regular driving (though more country than city). In the summer I got about 49 MPG (41 US MPG) on long drives, though like any car, efficiency suffered when driven much over 60 mph. Even though you haven't owned a car before, you probably know that fuel efficiency depends hugely on how the car is driven. Casual use of the brakes converts kinetic energy into heat for no good reason, and all of that has to be fed into the car again by burning fuel. Cyclists know a thing or two about not braking unnecessarily, but most car drivers don't, because it's too easy to just squeeze the accelerator pedal to regain lost speed.

And because most of the work done and fuel burnt is spent fighting air resistance (the greatest impediment to forward progress), the faster you go the more fuel you need to get from A to B. Efficiency is greater in summer than winter because the warmer air is less dense, so causes less drag.

I had another Renault 5 too, a 1989 model with a tiny 1108 cc carburetted engine and a four-speed gearbox. This one weighed about the same, had less than 50 horsepower, was good for about 90 mph and 60 mph in 13 seconds, but had even better fuel efficiency despite breathing through a straw. I often got 52 MPG with this one (43 US MPG) and once hit 55 MPG (46 US MPG) on a longer drive. Lovely car to drive too.

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans I'd love to see a simple, no-nonsense new car too - unfortunately here in the states that hasn't happened in probably 15 years. You can thank government over-regulation of auto manufacturing and plain old American laziness.

It hasn't happened in Europe for years either. In fact, the very French manufacturers that once created great, simple cars like the Renault 5, are the same ones that have ruined all hope of this. A decade or more ago, all car companies in Europe made a lot of money by selling options such as air-conditioning, electric sunroofs, remote central locking, etc., at the time of sale, with inflated dealer prices (like £800 for air conditioning). Then the French manufacturers decided that they would put all these things as standard on all models, and charge only marginally more (to cover the increased costs). People loved this silliness and the French manufacturers rapidly gained market share. That of course forced everyone to start selling cars loaded with options by default. So now you can't have a simple car even if you want one!

[GSpotter]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray So now you can't have a simple car even if you want one!

Some years ago, Renault started a new brand with simple, cheap cars: Dacia

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray So now you can't have a simple car even if you want one!

What do you call Hyundai? You can buy those without a stereo, lets not even talking about AC, and power windows/locks.

The gov't regulation is meant to keep you safe. We should be happy that you can get in a traffic collision now and walk away from it, not have to worry about your car asploding when you're rear ended, a la Pinto.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Maciej What do you call Hyundai? You can buy those without a stereo, lets not even talking about AC, and power windows/locks. The gov't regulation is meant to keep you safe. We should be happy that you can get in a traffic collision now and walk away from it, not have to worry about your car asploding when you're rear ended, a la Pinto.

You can get a Lotus without all that, but may be out of ABB's price range.

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Quagmire You can get a Lotus without all that, but may be out of ABB's price range.

Haha, and an Atom.

[Unch]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans VW Fox... They're really cute, tiny cars

Er...this VW Fox is a small car. That thing is HUGE!

You Americans have no sense of scale

If you wanna see a tiny car, you should see what I recently took delivery of.

I wonder if this would make Quagmire physically sick

[Maciej]

Man, I don't like smart cars. I see them a lot tho, I've even seen one with a ski rack. They're pretty safe too, for a such a small car - but they've got nothing under the hood. I'd be afraid to take it on the express way.

Top Gear played soccer with those little Foxes, it was cute.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Unch Er...this VW Fox is a small car. That thing is HUGE! You Americans have no sense of scale If you wanna see a tiny car, you should see what I recently took delivery of. I wonder if this would make Quagmire physically sick

The new Ford Fusion hybrid gets better gas mileage then that small tin can. It reached 43 MPG city( granted the test run was short).

[atomicbartbeans]

Well,



The body is in really nice shape. No dents or deformations, and were it not for a missing strip of door molding, it'd appear as though it's only a couple of years old. The mechanical systems appear very well cared for with a clean engine bay, and while the interior isn't spotless, it could be cleaned up to look quite respectable. Seeing the car in person made me really fall in love with the boxy design - I have weird taste.

During the test drive with my dad riding shotgun, it handled city traffic nimbly with plenty of pep - IMO the throttle was surprisingly responsive for such a small engine. Shifting was smooth and the clutch felt a-okay.

Unfortunately, the seller hadn't put any gas in the nearly empty tank - an honest oversight, but we sputtered and stalled in the middle of an intersection about a mile out. He had to meet us on the side of the road with a gas can.

The seller, despite being a really nice guy, hadn't seen the car for over a month when he took us to his friend's parking lot where it was stored. After spending 20 minutes chiseling off a layer of ice (such is commonplace in upstate New York), we spotted a BB embedded in the windshield with cracks emanating from the point of impact. After getting a $200 windshield replacement quote, the seller offered to lower the price to $500. Given the body and mechanical condition of the car, I think it's certainly still worth the price and repair.

BUT.

There's one thing that I'm hesitant about. I'd really appreciate sage advice on the following, as ABB is completely new to buying cars, and I'm meeting the seller again tomorrow to discuss the terms of sale.

The seller was given the Fox from one of his tenants in payment of back rent owed, with the expectation that he would re-sell it to recoup his money. Thus, the original owner signed off on the title of the car as a gift, but the seller didn't sign his name as accepting it, because it'd be pointless for him to take ownership of the title and register the car when he just wants to sell it again.

He's in possession of what he calls an open title, and he says that it's completely okay for me to sign it as the recipient, thus taking possession of the car. According to the documents we'd submit to the DMV, it would appear as though the title was transferred directly from the original owner to me.

What's the proper way to proceed, and obtain the title cleared in my name proper? I know the DMV charges silly fees and makes your life harder, but I don't want to run afoul of the law.

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by Quagmire The new Ford Fusion hybrid gets better gas mileage then that small tin can. It reached 43 MPG city( granted the test run was short).

I don't even know how this comment fits in, at all. The VW Golf Plus gets 46 MGP with the diesel engine.

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans After spending 20 minutes chiseling off a layer of ice (such is commonplace in upstate New York), we spotted a BB embedded in the windshield with cracks emanating from the point of impact. After getting a $200 windshield replacement quote, the seller offered to lower the price to $500.

Oh those pesky teenagers.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Maciej I don't even know how this comment fits in, at all. The VW Golf Plus gets 46 MGP with the diesel engine.

I didn't word it right, but I was refuting one of the reasons to buy a Smart car( fuel economy).

[Souflay123]

I have a newer, like 2008, vw and I love it.

[Unch]

Originally Posted by Maciej Man, I don't like smart cars. I see them a lot tho, I've even seen one with a ski rack. They're pretty safe too, for a such a small car - but they've got nothing under the hood. I'd be afraid to take it on the express way.

I guess it depends on your definition of "nothing under the hood", mine has more power under the hood than my Wife's bigger, heavier 206. Not that I'd insult anyone's intelligence to say that it's some kind of speed demon, it certainly isn't. But under the limited driving conditions I've experienced so far, I've never found myself looking for power that isn't there.

Originally Posted by Quagmire The new Ford Fusion hybrid gets better gas mileage then that small tin can. It reached 43 MPG city( granted the test run was short).

...and that has what to do with the physical size of the car?

Originally Posted by Souflay123 I have a newer, like 2008, vw and I love it.

I looked into getting a VW - a new Polo or Golf - and the interiors in them were just pure sex.