[Moogs]

Did you know...

Lethal injection is Authorised in 37 states (plus US military & federal government) Electrocution: In 10 states (sole method in Nebraska) Gas chamber: In five states (all of which have lethal injection as alternative) Hanging: Only in New Hampshire and Washington Firing squad: In Idaho and Oklahoma.It is available to inmates in Utah who chose it before the method was banned

FIRING SQUAD? I had no idea there were states that use any method other than the first three. That's... awesome! I wonder if the firing squad is carried out old west style, or where it's carried out for that matter. "JT Cutlet, you are hearby sentenced to death by firing squad for marrying your sister and polluting the gene pool with several women of ill repute. You have your choice... in the head, chest or face. Also we can arrange for a scenic western backdrop for the viewers' pleasure."

Maybe that guy from Extreme Weapons orgy or whatever that latently gay military hardware show is, can be the executioner in Idaho and Oklahoma, using the guilty as sniper test dummies for long-range shooting.

[Fahrenheit]

Gas chamber seems much more barbaric.

'Civilised' society using any of these methods....

[Moogs]

It's just that firing squad seems so... hollywood / old west. What is this, the civil war? Hanging is also a little surprising though I think it's still carried out in other countries (not sure). Whether you're for any of it or against it I was just kind of shocked to see it. I would've laughed if someone tried to convince me of that....

[turbulentfurball]

Originally Posted by Moogs It's just that firing squad seems so... hollywood / old west. What is this, the civil war? Hanging is also a little surprising though I think it's still carried out in other countries (not sure).

It's very much still in use. Iran use it very regularly.

[Moogs]

You mean hangings?

Just to clarify I meant surprising to hear firing squads are used in the US. Nothing surprises me with respect to Middle Eastern death penalties. I'm sure in Saudi Arabia they still draw and quarter people, probably. But here... that just seems so... weird. And honestly, firing squad is almost certainly is less cruel than every other method shown above it. That's the odd thing. And also far less expensive for the prison / tax payers I imagine.

[Fahrenheit]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia September 2, 1983: Jimmy Lee Gray, Mississippi. Officials had to clear the room eight minutes after the gas was released when Gray’s desperate gasps for air repulsed witnesses. His attorney criticized state officials for clearing the room when the inmate was still alive. Says David Bruck, an attorney specializing in death penalty cases, "Jimmy Lee Gray died banging his head against a steel pole in the gas chamber while reporters counted his moans."

How utterly barbaric and awful. Yet it happens all too often. Just, what a way to go, knowing you are going to die, slowly, painfully.

[turbulentfurball]

Originally Posted by Moogs And honestly, it almost certainly is less cruel than every other method shown above it. That's the odd thing.

I'd agree with a slight caveat that it's only less cruel if it is carried out correctly. Not enough of a drop, and the victim strangles to death. Too much, and the head can be removed.

That said, I'm fully against capital punishment. My objection to it led me to join Amnesty International.

Edit: the above refers to hanging, and me previous post does too.

[Moogs]

Oh I'm sure there are all sorts of screw-ups on the books where people were "under cooked" by the chair, "under dosed" in the injection, etc. It is barbaric. Though I would suggest in some of those cases the person being executed is quite literally a barbarian also.

As for firing squads, it's probably only two shooters nowadays and they put a couple right through the heart. Probably mark the spot before-hand. I'm sure they screw up far less than the other types.

Also: other than a victim's family, who would want to watch a frigging execution? Thanks, no.

[turbulentfurball]

Originally Posted by Moogs As for firing squads, it's probably only two shooters nowadays and they put a couple right through the heart. Probably mark the spot before-hand. I'm sure they screw up far less than the other types.

Utah procedures:

It's five shooters, one of whom is given a blank. The victim is restrained in this chair:



The shooters aim for the heart.

[torifile]

other than a victim's family, who would want to watch a frigging execution?

My wife and I watched Capote the other night and I asked her the same thing. Even watching it in a movie was disturbing. You've got to be some kind of a sick motherfucker to want to watch the execution of someone who did nothing to you. Even then, I've got my reservations about your mental stability.

In NC, they're having trouble doing any executions at all lately because no MDs will witness them and an MD witness is required by state law. It's been interesting watching the board of physicians take such a principled stance and potentially make an impact on this barbarism. Go docs!

[Koodari]

I'm against death penalty but as long as it exists, IMO it's incomprehensible why gas chamber, poison injections, electric chair and other contrived, unreliable and expensive devices continue to be used.

Also firing squads have been known to have to fire again when a person is not hit or is not hit well enough.

One executioner shooting two hollowpoint rounds into the back of the skull of a secured prisoner from close range is immediately effective. There's no question whatsoever if it'll work or not. Even in the freak chance there was a malfunction, it takes a second to pick up a backup weapon. I'd prefer this way if I was the one being executed.

Also, I think if there isn't a single person willing to step up and perform the execution, it shouldn't be done at all.

[rasmits]

Most executions carried out in 2005:

1. China (at least 1,010 but sources suggest the real tally is between 7,500 and 8,000)
2. Iran (177)
3. Pakistan (82)
4. Iraq (at least 65)
5. Sudan (at least 65)
6. United States (53)

The U.S. is in pretty good company, huh?

[alcimedes]

The weird part is I have no problem with the death penalty in theory. In practice I'm afraid that our justice system is no where fair enough or good enough to make a permanent punishment a viable option.

[709]

Originally Posted by Koodari One executioner shooting two hollowpoint rounds into the back of the skull of a secured prisoner from close range is immediately effective. There's no question whatsoever if it'll work or not. Even in the freak chance there was a malfunction, it takes a second to pick up a backup weapon. I'd prefer this way if I was the one being executed.

Absolutely. Pretty much all of the accepted ways to kill someone are absolutely barbaric and entail some amounts of pain. I'd rather a gunshot to the head than to feel my brain cooking or worse. That said, I'm against the Death Penalty unless it is an absolutely closed case without any reasonable doubt. For example, those two guys that recently raped and killed the mother and two daughters whilst leaving the husband to die in the basement from them setting the house on fire. Caught in the act. Confessed.

Kill them. Immediately. I'm all for a second chance, but these guys got theirs and decided to rape and kill some random folk.

Originally Posted by Koodari Also, I think if there isn't a single person willing to step up and perform the execution, it shouldn't be done at all.

Given the scenario above, there would probably be a fight to get first in line.

[crazychester]

Coming from a non-death penalty country, I'm one of those who can only see it as barbaric. But it's also always struck me as an easy way out for someone bad enough to deserve it. Rotting for years in prison is obviously much more unpleasant in the long run.

Having said that, definitely being shot at close range in the back of the head would be far preferable to the heart at a distance. That'd be my second preference after lethal injection I think. But it depends what they inject you with. Is it the case as Farenheit's Wiki suggests that they try to use stuff that will make it more unpleasant for the victim?

But yeah, great company the US is in on this one.

[torifile]

Originally Posted by alcimedes The weird part is I have no problem with the death penalty in theory. In practice I'm afraid that our justice system is no where fair enough or good enough to make a permanent punishment a viable option.

I have no idea where I stand on this issue in ideal conditions but I'm with you on not trusting our judicial system to be fair in deciding cases like this.

[709]

Originally Posted by crazychester Coming from a non-death penalty country, I'm one of those who can only see it as barbaric. But it's also always struck me as an easy way out for someone bad enough to deserve it. Rotting for years in prison is obviously much more unpleasant in the long run.

Is it though? You have to wonder. I've been in jail, and no, it is not pleasant by a longshot. But prison...I could get a friggin Ph.D. if I so desired. I could read to my heart's content. Is it really a fair tradeoff for brutally raping and murdering?

Like I said above, I don't by any means want to promote the Death Penalty...especially because it's just so flaccid in it's effect nowadays. But, imagine, in the scenario I listed above, if days after conviction and sentenced to death they were to be executed (properly, btw, I'm not about revenge or suffering). No life sentence and having taxpayers pay for 40-60 years worth of incarceration, just kill them and have it done. I don't mean to sound heartless, but these guys are the very epitome of the need for instant execution.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by alcimedes The weird part is I have no problem with the death penalty in theory. In practice I'm afraid that human nature is no where fair enough or good enough to make a permanent punishment a viable option.

T,ftfy. Humans deciding over the lives of other humans? An inherently flawed idea.

[chucker]

Just to amend my previous post a little:

Originally Posted by 709 That said, I'm against the Death Penalty unless it is an absolutely closed case without any reasonable doubt. For example, those two guys that recently raped and killed the mother and two daughters whilst leaving the husband to die in the basement from them setting the house on fire. Caught in the act. Confessed.

I agree that there are extreme cases where the death penalty looks justified. I didn't think, for one, that Saddam Hussein deserved any less than to be executed (although 1) you have to wonder: didn't we take away potential chances to interview him?, and 2) regardless of whether not most people wanted it that way, it felt far too much like a show trial).

However, even in such cases, I would not want to be the one to have to make that call. I don't believe any judge in the world, any five judges, or even any five thousand judges should be able to decide over a person's life.

[709]

Originally Posted by chucker T,ftfy. Humans deciding over the lives of other humans? An inherently flawed idea.

Well yes, I wouldn't trust most people to know the difference between chunky and smooth peanut butter.

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by 709 That said, I'm against the Death Penalty unless it is an absolutely closed case without any reasonable doubt. For example, those two guys that recently raped and killed the mother and two daughters whilst leaving the husband to die in the basement from them setting the house on fire. Caught in the act. Confessed. Kill them. Immediately. I'm all for a second chance, but these guys got theirs and decided to rape and kill some random folk.

I'd be happy to see bad things happen to people like this both during and after they commit the crime. I'd also be happy to see the facilitators of those things slipping away scot free. But what death penalty is about is legally enabling the government to kill people in their custody in cold blood. Nothing comes close to making that okay.

[709]

So you propose some sort of vigilante justice?

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by alcimedes The weird part is I have no problem with the death penalty in theory. In practice I'm afraid that our justice system is no where fair enough or good enough to make a permanent punishment a viable option.

Unfortunately, no punishment, short of rather unpainful monetary ones, is ever really *fixable*. Ten years in prison for a rape you didn't commit? What are you going to do, give them those years back? No can do.

Most punishments of any significance are 'permanent', and to pretend otherwise is just turning a blind eye to the real problem: fallibility of the system in determining guilt in the first place. I think this is what annoys me so much about anti-death-penalty protesters... if they succeeded in abolishing it, 99% of them would go back home, satisfied that they had 'fixed' something, when all they would have done would be removing a superficial symptom.

Fix the system, or stop wasting everyone's time, is my opinion.



My, I'm cranky today.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Unfortunately, no punishment, short of rather unpainful monetary ones, is ever really *fixable*. Ten years in prison for a rape you didn't commit? What are you going to do, give them those years back? No can do. Most punishments of any significance are 'permanent', and to pretend otherwise is just turning a blind eye to the real problem: fallibility of the system in determining guilt in the first place. I think this is what annoys me so much about anti-death-penalty protesters... if they succeeded in abolishing it, 99% of them would go back home, satisfied that they had 'fixed' something, when all they would have done would be removing a superficial symptom.

What you say is true, of course, but surely you'd agree that being executed is still an order of a magnitude worse than years of psychological damage and time taken away?

Fix the system, or stop wasting everyone's time, is my opinion.

There's no system to fix. Inherent flaws in human nature, like I said. Been that way five millennia ago, and will be that way ten millennia from now, assuming we haven't destroyed ourselves by then (again, because of human nature).

[709]

Originally Posted by chucker I agree that there are extreme cases where the death penalty looks justified. I didn't think, for one, that Saddam Hussein deserved any less than to be executed (although 1) you have to wonder: didn't we take away potential chances to interview him?, and 2) regardless of whether not most people wanted it that way, it felt far too much like a show trial).

I agree with everything you surmised in the respect of SD's trial (although, you know well enough that an intensive interview and the information that followed would have been very bad for the US, right?) but your comparison is the very definition of apples and oranges.

[torifile]

Fix the system, or stop wasting everyone's time, is my opinion.

Or get a new system. Our current method of crime and punishment is misguided, IMHO. I can't wait for the prison system to be privatized. Then the real fun will begin! No death penalty in those cases, I'm sure. it would take away from the bottomline.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by 709 I agree with everything you surmised in the respect of SD's trial (although, you know well enough that an intensive interview and the information that followed would have been very bad for the US, right?) but your comparison is the very definition of apples and oranges.

I don't see any comparison in the piece you quoted. What are you referring to?

As for the interview, I didn't really want this thread to go off-topic on that. I doubt a Hussein thread would survive much here, so I think it's in everyone's interest to leave that as an aside.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker What you say is true, of course, but surely you'd agree that being executed is still an order of a magnitude worse than years of psychological damage and time taken away?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. IMO, there are some people who are simply unrehabilitatable. They are a danger to, well, everyone. They should be removed from society. If we had the luxury of a penal colony, where they could survive, or not, on their own, I'd support that. But until we have clothed, fed, housed, and educated every single *other* member of our society, I don't see why we should spend a single resource on those who are solely, and simply, a negative. We have other people with genuine needs. Take care of them first. This *includes* those who simply screwed up, and needed rehabilitation and help. We don't provide nearly enough of that.

Basically, it boils down to: prove you absolutely can not, and will not, be a non-dangerous (note I don't even say *productive*, just don't kill, maim, torture, rape, molest, and terrorize others - I think that's a pretty low bar to meet) member of society, and society kicks you to the bottom of the heap for *all* resources. If there aren't any to spare, well, sorry charlie. You made your decision. You can live, or die, by it.

There's no system to fix. Inherent flaws in human nature, like I said. Been that way five millennia ago, and will be that way ten millennia from now, assuming we haven't destroyed ourselves by then (again, because of human nature).

It will never be 100% perfect, but it can be highly improved. Focus on that, and then the debate about whether a given penalty is levied fairly, or not, is moot. Tackle the root, not the symptom.

Think about how much faster our needy members of society might be taken care of, if those who were working against the death penalty realized that the only way to keep them alive would be to take care of everyone *else* first.

*shrug* This isn't something that invites rational discourse, and people's opinions are pretty well fixed, including mine, so... y'all have fun.

[709]

Originally Posted by chucker I don't see any comparison in the piece you quoted. What are you referring to?

Um. I quoted your response to my feelings on the two rapist/murderers, and you went on to compare that to the Hussein trial. I don't see the disconnect that you're seeing.

Originally Posted by chucker As for the interview, I didn't really want this thread to go off-topic on that. I doubt a Hussein thread would survive much here, so I think it's in everyone's interest to leave that as an aside.

Agreed.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kickaha ...there are some people who are simply unrehabilitatable...

Yeah, you know, this is pretty much the crux of where I'm at as well, so I'm going to leave it at that before alcimedes locks this thing.

Cheers.