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WTF is Wrong with Chinese industry?


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WTF is Wrong with Chinese industry?
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Moogs
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2007-06-19, 18:58

Go to war against who? The whole planet? If we have a truly united (economic) front, what does China have to gain by going to war with say 25 different western nations? It would only make an uncomfortable situation much worse for them. What are they going to do, bomb France or England into new trade agreements? They can rattle their sabres at Japan pretty effectively but that's about it. And if Japan intentionally abstains from the "industrial boycott", and continues buying from China, that ends that point of leverage.

Remember we're not talking about policing but about pressuring via economic measures, put forth mostly by industry, not governments. If the entire textile and food industry stands up with their board members and CEOs at the ready and say "we're not playing ball with these guys anymore until they clean up their act, and we'll help them do it"... that's not the US government or any other government that's to blame. And no one is going to start a war over that.

Sure it might scare the Chinese shitless but their more likely response is "OK fine, supply your own laptops, toys and microchips too!" So it wouldn't be without cost to western consumers (we'd end up paying more for western-manufactured goods that are normally made in China) but OTOH, if China did play hardball, and we did have to build new fabs and toy factories and whatever... that's a lot of new jobs for the economy and people out of work. Really China couldn't win. Their best card would be to clean up their act, at whatever cost, and keep us buying their goods in the long run.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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kscherer
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2007-06-19, 19:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Go to war against who? The whole planet?
Germany and Japan, both, were willing to do just exactly that at one point in history. What is to stop China from doing the same? Wars have been fought over less and one should NEVER underestimate the war-making capacities of a nation as populated as China, and one which has the phenomenal industrial complex that China has created. Not that they would, but the possibility exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Remember we're not talking about policing but about pressuring via economic measures, put forth mostly by industry, not governments. If the entire textile and food industry stands up with their board members and CEOs at the ready and say "we're not playing ball with these guys anymore until they clean up their act, and we'll help them do it"... that's not the US government or any other government that's to blame. And no one is going to start a war over that.
If the economic sanctioning comes directly from the corporation, all may go well, but it cannot have the endorsement of government on any front, from any nation. Doing so could (read, could) be construed as an act of war. We cannot underestimate the thinking of politicians, ever! And it must be endorsed by citizens/consumers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Sure it might scare the Chinese shitless but their more likely response is "OK fine, supply your own laptops, toys and microchips too!" So it wouldn't be without cost to western consumers (we'd end up paying more for western-manufactured goods that are normally made in China) but OTOH, if China did play hardball, and we did have to build new fabs and toy factories and whatever... that's a lot of new jobs for the economy and people out of work. Really China couldn't win. Their best card would be to clean up their act, at whatever cost, and keep us buying their goods in the long run.
This statement alone is the single coolest thing I have heard from anyone in this forum in a long time. Stop buying from them and start making our own crap again? The irony of us sending our labor force over-seas, only to find they couldn't do it right so we had to bring the labor back home and put all of our once-high-paid/high-skilled workers back to work. Amazing!

In all of this, however, I take the position of our founding fathers who suggested that we avoid treaties, pacts, wars, etc. at all costs. If China wants to trade with us, that is great; they should do it on our terms, not on theirs. Ever! We have lost sight of that and thus, we have problems.

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zsummers
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2007-06-19, 20:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Sure it might scare the Chinese shitless but their more likely response is "OK fine, supply your own laptops, toys and microchips too!" So it wouldn't be without cost to western consumers (we'd end up paying more for western-manufactured goods that are normally made in China) but OTOH, if China did play hardball, and we did have to build new fabs and toy factories and whatever... that's a lot of new jobs for the economy and people out of work. Really China couldn't win. Their best card would be to clean up their act, at whatever cost, and keep us buying their goods in the long run.
This is one point I had been concerned about in this debate: the effect on people at or below the poverty line. What happens if we boycott Chinese goods or held them to much higher standards? Well, prices go up--which hurts most for those at the margin, obviously.

But this discussion brought out two really good points here: 1.) hopefully higher paying manufacturing jobs would come back our way (which we've been bleeding like crazy), & 2.) the people most affected by the crappy manufacturing of products is likely to be people at or below the poverty line (because they're the people buying from the stores that predominately buy from China).

I think that shifts my view a bit around to something more along the lines of world-wide pressure, like Moogs suggested. But I don't think it is economically feasible to do this with even 25% of the goods China currently manufactures for our markets. I don't know enough about it, truth be told, but I feel like worldwide boycotts would cause enormous upheaval. Selective enforcement seems like a step though (like the European fur ban). But how do we get away from the "We put one in the hospital, they put on in the morgue" tit-for-tat that was mentioned earlier? That's where I'm a bit lost.
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alcimedes
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2007-06-20, 02:09

Of course, manf. jobs have typically paid well, haven't required much in the way of education and would give a lot of people who are currently scraping by in the service industry a chance in the manf. industry.

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kscherer
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2007-06-20, 11:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Of course, manf. jobs have typically paid well, haven't required much in the way of education and would give a lot of people who are currently scraping by in the service industry a chance in the manf. industry.
That is absolutely true. Many of those poor and destitute folks scraping by with service jobs used to have high-paying, manufacturing jobs. Those jobs got outsourced and entire towns went into the tanks because of it. Levi Strauss, Ford, Hanes, you name it! These big jerks have sent all kinds of our once lucrative jobs away and left people with no choice but to work in low-paying service jobs. Hell, to make matters worse, Walmart came along and threw those now-cheapened goods back at those folks and put the local mom-an-pops out of business, too. People now have little choice other than to shop there and work there!

And this is government related as well as corporate related. It's power mongering to the extreme! The people need to put a stop to it! Unfortunately, for many of the people most affected, putting a stop to it presents a massive financial challenge, one they have already had to endure once, and may not be able to withstand a second time. Unfortunately, I think the damage is done, and it may be permanent.

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Moogs
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2007-06-22, 09:07

Not related to industry, but does show one more example of official corruption and lack of understanding of human dignity on their part, which of course is the great enabler of half-assed industrial and manufacturing practices.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6230148.stm


Quote:
If the economic sanctioning comes directly from the corporation, all may go well, but it cannot have the endorsement of government on any front, from any nation. Doing so could (read, could) be construed as an act of war. We cannot underestimate the thinking of politicians, ever!
I don't know about that. I think the sequence in which things happen is important. If business gets together first, makes their stand first, and then the governments get behind that... it can't really be construed as an act of war. Particularly if there are significant offers to help the cause. If every country sends a bunch of experts in different fields of business and manufacturing, and we provide aid to displaced workers (on account of better manufacturing practices), etc... and maybe education too. Then it shows it's not an act of aggression but of compassion.

It's "Look, you're really fucking things up the same way we did 100 years ago, only on a more gigantic scale. You can't do this and we won't buy your products if you do. If you want us to buy your goods, these are the ethical standards, safety minimums and QC minimums you're going to have to embrace for the sake of your workers and the quality of your products. If you want our help, we'll give you brain power, man power and human aid money to get the ball rolling."

Not "Play our way or fuck you."

...into the light of a dark black night.
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alcimedes
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2007-06-22, 09:12

No worries. Dangerous imports from China are this year's shark attacks in Florida. Anything that's not up-to-par is going to get flushed out, just wait and see.

The media frenzy is already beginning.

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Moogs
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2007-06-22, 09:21

I wish someone would flush the media, too.
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World Leader Pretend
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2007-06-22, 10:04

Is it weird that I honestly haven't watched more than 5 seconds of a major news station on TV in the last year?

NPR + Intranets = my news.
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Banana
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2007-06-22, 10:13

Well, I haven't watched any news on TV for years.
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Chinney
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2007-06-22, 12:04

Sorry if I am coming into this thread a bit late – I have not been around AN a lot lately.

Great discussion here, but I do think that some of the focus is misdirected. While standards and practices in China are a problem, that is not the root of the problem, nor is addressing it the heart of the solution (although it must be addressed, if China wants to continue trading with the world).

Here’s my point: Take a read of Fast Food Nation if you think that the domestic North American food producing system is not suffering from huge problems. The account there of the domestic food industry – especially the account of the meat industry – is terrifying. The problem is not Chinese industry or agriculture, per se, but the food industry itself, whether domestic or foreign. The focus has become on quantity and price, not quality and value (even while we collectively, put on more and more weight).

The industry is sick. While certain conglomerates rake in billions upon billions selling us massive quantity of shit, the consumer suffers (and so do a lot of persons in the supply chain, especially many small-scale primary producers, and also employees).

The solution is not to attack China, or any other country, but to address the nature and quality of what is sold here, wherever it is produced. Those selling it to us – from whatever source – have to be held accountable first. This is where we can be effective - in domestic laws and regulations.

There can be downsides to overregulation, but when it comes to food, given the state of the industry, I am all in favour of more regulation, rather than less. If that increases the price of a bag of Doritos, all the better. We should be eating less, and we should be eating better things.

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kscherer
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2007-06-22, 12:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
Sorry if I am coming into this thread a bit late – I have not been around AN a lot lately.

Great discussion here, but I do think that some of the focus is misdirected. While standards and practices in China are a problem, that is not the root of the problem, nor is addressing it the heart of the solution (although it must be addressed, if China wants to continue trading with the world).

Here’s my point: Take a read of Fast Food Nation if you think that the domestic North American food producing system is not suffering from huge problems. The account there of the domestic food industry – especially the account of the meat industry – is terrifying. The problem is not Chinese industry or agriculture, per se, but the food industry itself, whether domestic or foreign. The focus has become on quantity and price, not quality and value (even while we collectively, put on more and more weight).

The industry is sick. While certain conglomerates rake in billions upon billions selling us massive quantity of shit, the consumer suffers (and so do a lot of persons in the supply chain, especially many small-scale primary producers, and also employees).

The solution is not to attack China, or any other country, but to address the nature and quality of what is sold here, wherever it is produced. Those selling it to us – from whatever source – have to be held accountable first. This is where we can be effective - in domestic laws and regulations.

There can be downsides to overregulation, but when it comes to food, given the state of the industry, I am all in favour of more regulation, rather than less. If that increases the price of a bag of Doritos, all the better. We should be eating less, and we should be eating better things.
Great post! I will reiterate that America must set an example for the rest of the world, in everything that we do. That means that fixing the problem starts here, at home, not "over there."

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Moogs
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2007-07-03, 09:04

While Chinney makes good points about the food industry in particular, I stand by my comments that the problems of standards and ethics are systemic throughout all Chinese industry and by extension the government. Here's the latest bit of kindling for the inferno.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6265098.stm

...into the light of a dark black night.
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Mac+
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2007-07-03, 09:15

Would it seem somewhat ironic if I told you that the above link/article is blocked? If you want those in China to be able to read it, you'll have to cut and paste the text in the thread.

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Moogs
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2007-07-03, 09:23

Not ironic, expected. Anyway, sorry about that... I forgot about the sensors. Here you go.

Quote:
China 'buried smog death finding'

Beijing has just reported its worst pollution for June in seven years

The World Bank is alleged to have cut from a report research that suggests pollution causes hundreds of thousands of premature deaths annually in China. The move followed pressure from Beijing, which believes the material is too sensitive and could lead to social unrest, said the UK's Financial Times.

It said information was cut from the forthcoming report after requests from two Chinese government departments. The World Bank told the BBC the final version had not yet been finalised. But a statement added: "[A preliminary] version of the report did not include some of the issues that are still under discussion."

The Financial Times said the Bank report, entitled 'Cost of Pollution in China', found up to 760,000 people die prematurely each year in China because of air and water pollution.

High levels of air pollution in China's cities leads to 350,000-400,000 premature deaths, it said. Another 300,000 die because of poor-quality air indoors. [W-T-F!]

The newspaper article, quoting World Bank advisers and Chinese officials, also said research showing that there are 60,000 premature deaths each year because of poor-quality water was also left out of the report. "The World Bank was told that it could not publish this information. It was too sensitive and could cause social unrest," one adviser to the study told the Financial Times.

It said the bank "reluctantly" agreed to take out the sensitive information. The World Bank told the BBC that information for the report, which is being compiled in conjunction with the Chinese government, was still under review.

(CHINA'S EMISSIONS
Between 1994 and 2004, China's greenhouse gas emissions grew by 4% a year
China currently depends on coal to meet two-thirds of its energy needs
It hopes to raise its use of renewable energy from 7% to 10% by 2010
China may overtake the US as the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases by the end of this year)

A World Bank spokeswoman refused to say whether or not statistics about premature deaths were amongst the information taken out of the initial version. Despite the apparent dispute over figures, the preliminary World Bank report published in March suggests air and water pollution do lead to an increased number of deaths in China.

It also says the total cost of air and water pollution in the country amounts to about 5.8% of gross domestic product.

According to the Financial Times, China's State Environmental Protection Administration (Sepa) and its health ministry asked the World Bank to cut out the reference to the specific number of pollution-related deaths. The BBC could not reach anyone at Sepa to comment on the issue. But the government department is certainly aware of China's pollution problems. Last month it said about 60% of Chinese cities regularly suffer from air pollution and have no centralised sewage treatment facilities.

The final World Bank report is due to be released soon. The organisation has previously said that China is home to 16 of the world's 20 most-polluted cities.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 12:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac+ View Post
Would it seem somewhat ironic if I told you that the above link/article is blocked? If you want those in China to be able to read it, you'll have to cut and paste the text in the thread.
That right there says it all!

China is a communist nation and we are all fools to trust their government on anything! If we did not learn our lesson from the Soviets during the Cold War, then we are doomed to repeat it.

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alcimedes
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2007-07-03, 12:11

Um, before everyone goes off on the Chinese Govt., you might want to keep in mind the meddling that our Govt. has done with a variety of EPA reports in the last few years.

It's not unique to China.

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Luca
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2007-07-03, 12:22

BBC is blocked in China. CNN/Fox News/etc aren't, though. I guess at least the Chinese government can tell real news sources from "news lite."

I'm even a bit surprised at the numbers, though. Even after living here for nearly ten months, I wouldn't have suspected it was that bad.

Based on the population of the city I'm staying in (Xi'an, about 8M), and 700,000 deaths a year, that would average out to about 3500 deaths due to pollution in this city since I arrived in late September last year (about 9 months ago). Of course I don't know the actual numbers but it's kind of scary. One more reason I'm happy to be coming home soon.

I imagine a large portion of the deaths are old or sick people who may have been able to recover if not for the terrible pollution. Me, I just get the runs every couple weeks, and I get the occasional fever, cough, or stuffy nose.

As for the indoor air quality, I'm sure that's because of the coal people burn. I see guys pulling big carts full of coal for heating - that's pretty much all that's used for indoor heating in the winter (or I should say, for all year-round heating needs). After many years of staying inside and inhaling coal particles, you're bound to develop some complications, and your life expectancy will go down.

Speaking of heating (and going off on a tangent, I know), the government has the brilliant idea of "saving" energy by specifying a certain range of dates during which you're allowed to run the heat. Doesn't matter if it's cold out or not, you only get heat from November 15th to March 15th. As a result, huge amounts of energy are wasted by people (or building managers) needlessly running the heating systems even during warm spells, and other times people freeze their asses off if there's a cold spell in late March or early November. All the windows I've ever seen here are single-pane, so there's virtually no insulation. Finally, people use their windows as heat regulation, because the heat is always running at full blast with no way to turn it down. This, of course, wastes huge amounts of energy, especially at the tail end of the time of year when the heat is on, when everyone's sweating in their rooms and has all their windows open all the way to get rid of the excess heat.

What an intelligent, well-thought-out system. The government can't trust people to not waste energy on their own, so they take care of it for them.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 12:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes View Post
Um, before everyone goes off on the Chinese Govt., you might want to keep in mind the meddling that our Govt. has done with a variety of EPA reports in the last few years.

It's not unique to China.
Yes, you are right. We definitely have our own issues, here, and that is exactly why we are even allowing tainted food to come in to begin with.

I posted earlier that we need to fix our own problems first, then we can concern ourselves with others.

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Windswept
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2007-07-03, 12:29

Quote:
60% of Chinese cities... have no centralised sewage treatment facilities.
That probably means that the raw sewage of most Chinese cities pours - untreated - directly into the ocean and into the rivers from which people get their drinking water and/or irrigate their crops.

'Untreated sewage' would probably include chemical wastes from hundreds of thousands of manufacturing plants... sent directly into the water supplies, because that's the 'cheapest' way of doing business.

Just... UNbelievable.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 12:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept View Post
That probably means that the raw sewage of most Chinese cities pours - untreated - directly into the ocean and into the rivers from which people get their drinking water and/or irrigate their crops.

'Untreated sewage' would probably include chemical wastes from hundreds of thousands of manufacturing plants... sent directly into the water supplies, because that's the 'cheapest' way of doing business.

Just... UNbelievable.
Right. And we're putting their tomatoes in our salad!

Yummy!

There is a reason why the US has been so free from the diseases of the world. Quality control is everything, and so is sanitation!

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Moogs
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2007-07-03, 12:37

Oh yah... their waste water systems over there are atrocious to non-existent. Again that's big industry saving a buck wherever they can at the expense of local health and global ecology. Sad....

...into the light of a dark black night.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 12:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
Oh yah... their waste water systems over there are atrocious to non-existent. Again that's big industry saving a buck wherever they can at the expense of local health and global ecology. Sad....
And that's why big industry likes their goods so much. Because they can do it cheaper.

Case in point:

Micron Technology, a RAM/DRAM (etc.) manufacturer here in Boise has determined that they will have to lay off 1200+ high-paying, manufacturing jobs due to the unchecked import of Chinese memory! This company has been in our city since its beginning and is now being forced to send manufacturing over-seas!

Those 1200 jobs pay very well. Lots of available overtime; lots of benefits; huge input into our local economy. We don't have 1200 equivalent jobs to replace them with. That means a drain on our local economy on a huge scale. Housing will take the biggest hit: lower sell prices; less revenue from property taxes (darn!); less money for the politicians to waste on crap; etc.!

Our federal government does not properly administer tariffs, thus the Chinese are permitted to destroy our manufacturing base, with help from their lower-cost manufacturing (read Windswept's post above). All this with the aid of our own government and MegaCorp.

My opinion: Treason! At all levels.

But that's just me.

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Moogs
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2007-07-03, 13:00

It's FUBAR... no doubt about it. I've driven by that Micron plant several times and I know that's a huge part of the local economy there. You are correct that the government does not do right by its citizens in this case. And the reason is because the government is ridiculously influenced by corporate lobbyists. Rest assured... [there are plenty of big business executives who want to leverage Chinese manufacturing to fill their coffers, and don't want the government playing hardball over there]. For every job sent overseas, some executive up on the top floor is getting more money because of it.

Everything these assholes do in the name of "shareholder value" is a euphemism for "we executives are going to restructure our costs so that the workers have to make all the sacrifices (i.e. less benefits, layoffs, lower salaries, et al) and we make all the fucking money..." [snip - got on a rant, sorry...]

There ought to be a freaking rule: if your company has more than 1000 employees, you don't get to lobby congress. All we need is for small and medium-sized business' interests to be protected ; the big dogs can fend for themselves IMO and have no business molding policy. Especially a-hole energy and pharmaceutical companies, who have economies larger than some small countries.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 13:22

Any politician that accepts money from anyone should be immediately recalled and prosecuted for bribery!

Campaign dollars should come from the government and be dolled out equally to all who are running.

Got that off my shoulders, now I can move on!

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Moogs
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2007-07-03, 13:25

Not even the money but the ear-bending corporations can do is ridiculous. Why should lawyers and lobbyists from some mega-corp get to have lunch with senators and other lawmakers, even if the lawmakers pay for everything? It's bullshit. WE don't get to sit down the the lawmakers, why the hell should they be able to?

...into the light of a dark black night.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 13:31

Micron has actually been one of the less corrupt corporations out there. A few years back, Steve Appleton, the CEO, announced that he would no longer take a salary unless the company was profitable. Obviously, he gets his stock options, but it says a lot to your employees. He announced his retirement last week. He is having some health issues, but is so upset with the layoffs that he no longer wants to be involved.

He's been a great example to CEOs every were! Unfortunately, he has little control over Uncle Spam's trade racket.

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Moogs
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2007-07-03, 13:49

Well glad to hear he's on the up-and-up but I'm sure he doesn't operate in a vacuum, and even if he handles his salary that way, I'm sure the other C0s and executives don't follow the same principle.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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kscherer
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2007-07-03, 14:05

Micron is definitely not without their share of issues. However, this one does not even fall to corporate/politician abuse at the local level. This is entirely based on the way that the feds deal with their responsibilities, or lack thereof. As with the topic of this thread, the Chinese have many avenues to encroach on our safety (health, military, manufacturing, etc.) that they enjoy simply because we are falling down all over ourselves with all the neat gadgets coming into the nation, while failing to look ahead to see what the ramifications might be for the long term.

I'm rambling now. so…

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Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2007-07-03, 19:17

In fairness to the earlier comments about China not being the only goat...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6266712.stm

Seems Brazil has its own slave labor problems. Brazil is a large and growing country too; hopefully they don't follow the Chinese model but if deforestation in the Amazon for short-term agricultural profits is any indication....



Gah. It's the 4th coming up... we should take a break from this thread for a couple days and enjoy the fact we don't live (permanently - right Luca?) in these countries. I.E. appreciate what we have, hopefully without too much flag-waiving patriotic drivel.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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