Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Go to war against who? The whole planet? If we have a truly united (economic) front, what does China have to gain by going to war with say 25 different western nations? It would only make an uncomfortable situation much worse for them. What are they going to do, bomb France or England into new trade agreements? They can rattle their sabres at Japan pretty effectively but that's about it. And if Japan intentionally abstains from the "industrial boycott", and continues buying from China, that ends that point of leverage.
Remember we're not talking about policing but about pressuring via economic measures, put forth mostly by industry, not governments. If the entire textile and food industry stands up with their board members and CEOs at the ready and say "we're not playing ball with these guys anymore until they clean up their act, and we'll help them do it"... that's not the US government or any other government that's to blame. And no one is going to start a war over that. Sure it might scare the Chinese shitless but their more likely response is "OK fine, supply your own laptops, toys and microchips too!" So it wouldn't be without cost to western consumers (we'd end up paying more for western-manufactured goods that are normally made in China) but OTOH, if China did play hardball, and we did have to build new fabs and toy factories and whatever... that's a lot of new jobs for the economy and people out of work. Really China couldn't win. Their best card would be to clean up their act, at whatever cost, and keep us buying their goods in the long run. ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Germany and Japan, both, were willing to do just exactly that at one point in history. What is to stop China from doing the same? Wars have been fought over less and one should NEVER underestimate the war-making capacities of a nation as populated as China, and one which has the phenomenal industrial complex that China has created. Not that they would, but the possibility exists.
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In all of this, however, I take the position of our founding fathers who suggested that we avoid treaties, pacts, wars, etc. at all costs. If China wants to trade with us, that is great; they should do it on our terms, not on theirs. Ever! We have lost sight of that and thus, we have problems. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Avast!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
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But this discussion brought out two really good points here: 1.) hopefully higher paying manufacturing jobs would come back our way (which we've been bleeding like crazy), & 2.) the people most affected by the crappy manufacturing of products is likely to be people at or below the poverty line (because they're the people buying from the stores that predominately buy from China). I think that shifts my view a bit around to something more along the lines of world-wide pressure, like Moogs suggested. But I don't think it is economically feasible to do this with even 25% of the goods China currently manufactures for our markets. I don't know enough about it, truth be told, but I feel like worldwide boycotts would cause enormous upheaval. Selective enforcement seems like a step though (like the European fur ban). But how do we get away from the "We put one in the hospital, they put on in the morgue" tit-for-tat that was mentioned earlier? That's where I'm a bit lost. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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Of course, manf. jobs have typically paid well, haven't required much in the way of education and would give a lot of people who are currently scraping by in the service industry a chance in the manf. industry.
Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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And this is government related as well as corporate related. It's power mongering to the extreme! The people need to put a stop to it! Unfortunately, for many of the people most affected, putting a stop to it presents a massive financial challenge, one they have already had to endure once, and may not be able to withstand a second time. Unfortunately, I think the damage is done, and it may be permanent. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Not related to industry, but does show one more example of official corruption and lack of understanding of human dignity on their part, which of course is the great enabler of half-assed industrial and manufacturing practices.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6230148.stm Quote:
It's "Look, you're really fucking things up the same way we did 100 years ago, only on a more gigantic scale. You can't do this and we won't buy your products if you do. If you want us to buy your goods, these are the ethical standards, safety minimums and QC minimums you're going to have to embrace for the sake of your workers and the quality of your products. If you want our help, we'll give you brain power, man power and human aid money to get the ball rolling." Not "Play our way or fuck you." ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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I shot the sherrif.
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No worries. Dangerous imports from China are this year's shark attacks in Florida. Anything that's not up-to-par is going to get flushed out, just wait and see.
The media frenzy is already beginning. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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I wish someone would flush the media, too.
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Ruling teh World
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston, MA
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Is it weird that I honestly haven't watched more than 5 seconds of a major news station on TV in the last year?
NPR + Intranets = my news. |
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Well, I haven't watched any news on TV for years.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Sorry if I am coming into this thread a bit late – I have not been around AN a lot lately.
Great discussion here, but I do think that some of the focus is misdirected. While standards and practices in China are a problem, that is not the root of the problem, nor is addressing it the heart of the solution (although it must be addressed, if China wants to continue trading with the world). Here’s my point: Take a read of Fast Food Nation if you think that the domestic North American food producing system is not suffering from huge problems. The account there of the domestic food industry – especially the account of the meat industry – is terrifying. The problem is not Chinese industry or agriculture, per se, but the food industry itself, whether domestic or foreign. The focus has become on quantity and price, not quality and value (even while we collectively, put on more and more weight). The industry is sick. While certain conglomerates rake in billions upon billions selling us massive quantity of shit, the consumer suffers (and so do a lot of persons in the supply chain, especially many small-scale primary producers, and also employees). The solution is not to attack China, or any other country, but to address the nature and quality of what is sold here, wherever it is produced. Those selling it to us – from whatever source – have to be held accountable first. This is where we can be effective - in domestic laws and regulations. There can be downsides to overregulation, but when it comes to food, given the state of the industry, I am all in favour of more regulation, rather than less. If that increases the price of a bag of Doritos, all the better. We should be eating less, and we should be eating better things. When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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While Chinney makes good points about the food industry in particular, I stand by my comments that the problems of standards and ethics are systemic throughout all Chinese industry and by extension the government. Here's the latest bit of kindling for the inferno.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6265098.stm ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Not ironic, expected. Anyway, sorry about that... I forgot about the sensors. Here you go.
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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China is a communist nation and we are all fools to trust their government on anything! If we did not learn our lesson from the Soviets during the Cold War, then we are doomed to repeat it. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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I shot the sherrif.
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Um, before everyone goes off on the Chinese Govt., you might want to keep in mind the meddling that our Govt. has done with a variety of EPA reports in the last few years.
It's not unique to China. Google is your frenemy. Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me |
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ಠ_ರೃ
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
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BBC is blocked in China. CNN/Fox News/etc aren't, though. I guess at least the Chinese government can tell real news sources from "news lite."
I'm even a bit surprised at the numbers, though. Even after living here for nearly ten months, I wouldn't have suspected it was that bad. Based on the population of the city I'm staying in (Xi'an, about 8M), and 700,000 deaths a year, that would average out to about 3500 deaths due to pollution in this city since I arrived in late September last year (about 9 months ago). Of course I don't know the actual numbers but it's kind of scary. One more reason I'm happy to be coming home soon. I imagine a large portion of the deaths are old or sick people who may have been able to recover if not for the terrible pollution. Me, I just get the runs every couple weeks, and I get the occasional fever, cough, or stuffy nose. As for the indoor air quality, I'm sure that's because of the coal people burn. I see guys pulling big carts full of coal for heating - that's pretty much all that's used for indoor heating in the winter (or I should say, for all year-round heating needs). After many years of staying inside and inhaling coal particles, you're bound to develop some complications, and your life expectancy will go down. Speaking of heating (and going off on a tangent, I know), the government has the brilliant idea of "saving" energy by specifying a certain range of dates during which you're allowed to run the heat. Doesn't matter if it's cold out or not, you only get heat from November 15th to March 15th. As a result, huge amounts of energy are wasted by people (or building managers) needlessly running the heating systems even during warm spells, and other times people freeze their asses off if there's a cold spell in late March or early November. All the windows I've ever seen here are single-pane, so there's virtually no insulation. Finally, people use their windows as heat regulation, because the heat is always running at full blast with no way to turn it down. This, of course, wastes huge amounts of energy, especially at the tail end of the time of year when the heat is on, when everyone's sweating in their rooms and has all their windows open all the way to get rid of the excess heat. What an intelligent, well-thought-out system. The government can't trust people to not waste energy on their own, so they take care of it for them. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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I posted earlier that we need to fix our own problems first, then we can concern ourselves with others. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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On Pacific time
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
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'Untreated sewage' would probably include chemical wastes from hundreds of thousands of manufacturing plants... sent directly into the water supplies, because that's the 'cheapest' way of doing business. Just... UNbelievable. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Yummy! There is a reason why the US has been so free from the diseases of the world. Quality control is everything, and so is sanitation! - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Oh yah... their waste water systems over there are atrocious to non-existent. Again that's big industry saving a buck wherever they can at the expense of local health and global ecology. Sad....
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Case in point: Micron Technology, a RAM/DRAM (etc.) manufacturer here in Boise has determined that they will have to lay off 1200+ high-paying, manufacturing jobs due to the unchecked import of Chinese memory! This company has been in our city since its beginning and is now being forced to send manufacturing over-seas! Those 1200 jobs pay very well. Lots of available overtime; lots of benefits; huge input into our local economy. We don't have 1200 equivalent jobs to replace them with. That means a drain on our local economy on a huge scale. Housing will take the biggest hit: lower sell prices; less revenue from property taxes (darn!); less money for the politicians to waste on crap; etc.! Our federal government does not properly administer tariffs, thus the Chinese are permitted to destroy our manufacturing base, with help from their lower-cost manufacturing (read Windswept's post above). All this with the aid of our own government and MegaCorp. My opinion: Treason! At all levels. But that's just me. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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It's FUBAR... no doubt about it. I've driven by that Micron plant several times and I know that's a huge part of the local economy there. You are correct that the government does not do right by its citizens in this case. And the reason is because the government is ridiculously influenced by corporate lobbyists. Rest assured... [there are plenty of big business executives who want to leverage Chinese manufacturing to fill their coffers, and don't want the government playing hardball over there]. For every job sent overseas, some executive up on the top floor is getting more money because of it.
Everything these assholes do in the name of "shareholder value" is a euphemism for "we executives are going to restructure our costs so that the workers have to make all the sacrifices (i.e. less benefits, layoffs, lower salaries, et al) and we make all the fucking money..." [snip - got on a rant, sorry...] There ought to be a freaking rule: if your company has more than 1000 employees, you don't get to lobby congress. All we need is for small and medium-sized business' interests to be protected ; the big dogs can fend for themselves IMO and have no business molding policy. Especially a-hole energy and pharmaceutical companies, who have economies larger than some small countries. ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Any politician that accepts money from anyone should be immediately recalled and prosecuted for bribery!
Campaign dollars should come from the government and be dolled out equally to all who are running. Got that off my shoulders, now I can move on! - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Not even the money but the ear-bending corporations can do is ridiculous. Why should lawyers and lobbyists from some mega-corp get to have lunch with senators and other lawmakers, even if the lawmakers pay for everything? It's bullshit. WE don't get to sit down the the lawmakers, why the hell should they be able to?
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Micron has actually been one of the less corrupt corporations out there. A few years back, Steve Appleton, the CEO, announced that he would no longer take a salary unless the company was profitable. Obviously, he gets his stock options, but it says a lot to your employees. He announced his retirement last week. He is having some health issues, but is so upset with the layoffs that he no longer wants to be involved.
He's been a great example to CEOs every were! Unfortunately, he has little control over Uncle Spam's trade racket. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Well glad to hear he's on the up-and-up but I'm sure he doesn't operate in a vacuum, and even if he handles his salary that way, I'm sure the other C0s and executives don't follow the same principle.
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Micron is definitely not without their share of issues. However, this one does not even fall to corporate/politician abuse at the local level. This is entirely based on the way that the feds deal with their responsibilities, or lack thereof. As with the topic of this thread, the Chinese have many avenues to encroach on our safety (health, military, manufacturing, etc.) that they enjoy simply because we are falling down all over ourselves with all the neat gadgets coming into the nation, while failing to look ahead to see what the ramifications might be for the long term.
I'm rambling now. so… - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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In fairness to the earlier comments about China not being the only goat...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6266712.stm Seems Brazil has its own slave labor problems. Brazil is a large and growing country too; hopefully they don't follow the Chinese model but if deforestation in the Amazon for short-term agricultural profits is any indication.... Gah. It's the 4th coming up... we should take a break from this thread for a couple days and enjoy the fact we don't live (permanently - right Luca?) in these countries. I.E. appreciate what we have, hopefully without too much flag-waiving patriotic drivel. ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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