[drewprops]

I think we've all been avoiding it, but I thought that I might share that a colleague lost his cousin and her husband in the invasion of Israel last weekend. Just horrible.


...

[kieran]

While I don't know anyone personally affected, I do work with a lot of Jewish people in my current position and have many Jewish friends and colleagues. Needless to say, it's a bit solemn this week as people are taking time to themselves for the most part.

I posted this on my social media triumvirate of Mastodon/Bluesky/Threads this week, but I think it bears repeating here as well.

How much of the antisemitic nonsense that is coming out of America right now, oddly from all sides of the political spectrum, comes from the fact that a non-insignificant number of Americans (and worldwide) have never met or known a Jewish person?

I live in the northeast US, so I have know Jewish people my whole life and never really thought about anything different until I got older.

And obviously, Hamas is not representative of the people of Palestine just as much as the Israeli government is not representative of the people of Israel.

You can criticize Israel without being antisemitic and you can support a free Palestine without supporting terrorism.

It's just a bad mix of emotions and ethnic history over there and will continue to be for as long as both sides don't come to an agreement on how to share that corner of the world.

[psmith2.0]

And they never will. Would’ve happened by now if folks were actually serious about it. It’s not some impossible task, after all.

American political dipshittery has nothing to do with this. These people have been going at it long before any current boogeymen stepped onto the public stage.

And they’ll act this way no matter who’s President, who’s running for President or what a sliver of American-based twerps say or do about anything. “Stormfront” idiots wish they had any sort of influence and impact half a world away. They can’t even organize/stage gatherings and marches in their own town without it turning into a Tgree Stooges routine of missed cues, fights, arrests and standing around dodging thrown rocks, etc.

[turtle]

I have personally not followed what is happening in Israel at all. I think it sucks that another population has been hit by war but more so that it apparently started with hang gliders into a large social gathering. It was an attack on civilians, not military.

While "civil" and "gentleman's" war haven't been a thing for millennia, targeting civilians is a no-no. This is the kind of thing that makes it really hard not to retaliate with such force that the entire race isn't wiped off the globe.

[psmith2.0]

True. Yeah, as with just about everything anymore, I just see another batch of bad, contentious news and just shut it out. That can’t be all life is.

This stuff doesn’t affect/impact me any more than the Russia-Ukraine stuff. I’m not Jewish, I have no dog in this fight, it doesn’t impact me on any social, ethnic or cultural level. All I see is another cluster of people who chosen to show their ass and start acting crazy for reasons I’ll never understand or buy into. It’s sad that it happens, period. Anywhere. But I didn’t start it, I haven’t called for it or working behind the scenes to bring it about. It’s as far removed from me as anything could be. It just sucks that people can’t straighten their stuff out without all this. There’s nothing I can say or do, thousands of miles away, that helps or matters. Just like that other war going on. The one solution/idea I have, nobody’s ever gonna do anyway, so my thoughts of a giant glass candy dish is just something I tell myself when it gets bad and my base instinct is to think “okay, let’s justify that military budget and R&D a bit…maybe bazillions vaporized/dead, on all sides, shuts everyone up?”

Like a babysitter trying to watch 5-6 kids on a Saturday night and 2-3 of the kids are just constantly fighting and acting up. Eventually, after 3-4 hours, she’s gonna snap, bust all their asses and put them ALL to bed, tired of the neverending nonsense and hassle. “I don’t wanna hear a peep. I put up with it at 6:30pm. It’s now coming up on 11pm. STFU and go to sleep, all of you! That’s your only option now. Your lame, drunk parents can deal with you if they ever get home!”



Some parts of this planet are just a constant, nonstop pain-in-the-ass, taking everyone else’s focus, patience, money, concern. At what point does the world become a babysitter who finally snaps and, for just an ounce of peace and quiet, lashes out/punishes/wrecks everyone within reach?

“You’ve all had decades/generations to figure out how to exist on this rock. You haven’t/won’t. A bunch of us have consulted/discussed it and have decided you’re just better off dead. Living where you do, it was gonna happen to you sooner or later anyway…we just scooted up the timetable and scale a bit. Think long and hard about that next punk-ass rock you throw…we’re the very definition of “there’s more where this came from.”

Some people seem determined to fuck around and find out, as the kids say. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Yikes!]

Originally Posted by turtle I have personally not followed what is happening in Israel at all. I think it sucks that another population has been hit by war but more so that it apparently started with hang gliders into a large social gathering. It was an attack on civilians, not military. While "civil" and "gentleman's" war haven't been a thing for millennia, targeting civilians is a no-no. This is the kind of thing that makes it really hard not to retaliate with such force that the entire race isn't wiped off the globe.

uh yea.... genocide is not ok.


What we are witnessing right now is incredibly scary and depressing. The Hamas attack on Israel was awful and inexcusable. But, the way the world is looking the other way at the response...... this is how genocide happens and is justified. Humans suck.

[Yikes!]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 “You’ve all had decades/generations to figure out how to exist on this rock. You haven’t/won’t. A bunch of us have consulted/discussed it and have decided you’re just better off dead. Living where you do, it was gonna happen to you sooner or later anyway …we just scooted up the timetable and scale a bit. Think long and hard about that next punk-ass rock you throw…we’re the very definition of “there’s more where this came from.” Some people seem determined to fuck around and find out, as the kids say. 🤷🏻‍♂️

WTF

[kscherer]

Israel has a right to defend itself. Unfortunately, civilians always get caught between warring factions. This has never not been the case. If what is coming out of Israel is true, that Hamas raped women, beheaded infants and children, lined civilians against a wall and shot them dead …

That's a Pearl Harbor-level attack, and if Gaza gets mowed over in retaliation, so goes war. War is hell, especially on civilians. And you can imagine the mayhem another country would suffer if that were done in, say, Denver!

We Americans are fortunate enough to have been pretty well sheltered from war for 150 years. Our civilians haven't had to suffer through invasion for an awfully long time. That said, were I the POTUS and someone did this to my people, the hell that country would pay would be unbearable for their armed forces and civilians! It would end when they got on their collective knees and surrendered unconditionally.

Palestinian civilians need to stop blaming Israel for this and turn their sights on their own leadership. Either they throw Hamas out, or Israel does. They didn't, so Israel must, and that means civilians are going to suffer. A lot!

If the Gaza Strip stille exists in six months, I'll be surprised at Israel's restraint.

[Yikes!]

Originally Posted by kscherer Oh, for Pete's sake! Because what already terrified children need in this shoot-up-the-schools world is more of that kind of nonsense. Jess is a teacher, and if she let that be shown in her class I'd give her an earful! And so would you! — On the other topic, Israel has a right to defend itself. Unfortunately, civilians always get caught between warring factions. This has never not been the case. If what is coming out of Israel is true, that Hamas raped women, beheaded infants and children, lined civilians against a wall and shot them dead … That's a Pearl Harbor-level attack, and if Gaza gets mowed over in retaliation, so goes war. War is hell, especially on civilians. And you can imagine the mayhem another country would suffer if that were done in, say, Denver! We Americans are fortunate enough to have been pretty well sheltered from war for 150 years. Our civilians haven't had to suffer through invasion for an awfully long time. That said, were I the POTUS and someone did this to my people, the hell that country would pay would be unbearable for their armed forces and civilians! It would end when they got on their collective knees and surrendered unconditionally. Palestinian civilians need to stop blaming Israel for this and turn their sights on their own leadership. Either they throw Hamas out, or Israel does. They didn't, so Israel must, and that means civilians are going to suffer. A lot! If the Gaza Strip stille exists in six months, I'll be surprised at Israel's restraint.

only that black and white to Americans. it's simply not that simple. and there is no moral high ground to stand on for genocide and torture of civilians.

also: the beheaded babies is a great example of the needless propoganda being fed to Americans. there's no evidence of it. isn't it bad enough that babies were murdered point blank? both the Israeli and American governments have walked the claims of beheaded babies.



not even going to point out that US soldiers have been convicted of doing the same things you say justify wiping out a country of 2 million, no questions asked.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by Yikes! only that black and white to Americans. it's simply not that simple. and there is no moral high ground to stand on for genocide and torture of civilians.

I call B.S. that it's only "that black and white to Americans". It's only "that black and white" in warfare, no matter the country, and history proves this. If you attack me, I will defend myself, even if it means your people get in the way. That is war, and it has always been that way. Keeping in mind that is is Hamas committing torture and who wants to eradicate the Jewish people. However, civilians are the taxpayers and laborers of any nation and generally provide the resources/support/shelter for their armies, irregardless the legitimacy of those armies. Wars are not won by defeating armies, they are won by defeating nations. The history of civilization and the history of warfare both support this fact. Our own civil war resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians, many of them at the hands of the North (who held the higher moral ground, by the way).

This self-congratulating, arm-chair-quarterback notion that warfare, no matter the weapon, can somehow be strictly limited to targeting soldiers is absurd. Bullets go all over the place, as do arrows and spears. Warfare is brutal, and soldiers trying desperately to either defend themselves or push the offensive forward are going to accidentally (or sometimes intentionally) kill civilians.

Originally Posted by Yikes! also: the beheaded babies is a great example of the needless propoganda being fed to Americans. there's no evidence of it. isn't it bad enough that babies were murdered point blank? both the Israeli and American governments have walked the claims of beheaded babies.

I did not state anything about beheading babies as fact. I said this: "If what is coming out of Israel is true,". The word "If" is one of the most misunderstood words in debate. "If" is not a statement of fact. And, yes, it is bad enough that babies were murdered point blank, and the people responsible should pay. Unfortunately, those people are cowards and hide behind their own women and children to escape their just punishment. The reason Palestinian civilians are being killed is because Hamas terrorists are hiding beneath their baby's cribs. Wouldn't it be nice if they came out and fought face-to-face so their civilians didn't have to be caught in between?

Originally Posted by Yikes! not even going to point out that US soldiers have been convicted of doing the same things you say justify wiping out a country of 2 million, no questions asked.

I never said nor justified the "wiping out a country of 2 million". I stated that I would not stop until they surrendered. Those are not the same thing. Your enemies might stop at the first death, or they might fight to the very last person. That is their choice.

[turtle]

Thank you for taking the time to post that. I started to and then deleted it and moved on.

I personally appreciate what I type being taken out of context.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Yikes! WTF

It's sarcasm, mixed with a bit of black, gallows humor, relax.

Good grief, the one time I don't festoon my obviously-joking/absurd post with (unnecessary) smileys, I manage to get taken seriously. How does that happen? It's a choice.

But kscherer, as usual, has solid, reasonable points. "War" isn't a cute, fun video game where all the ideal conditions and behaviors are adhered to. Israel has every right to defend itself, and strike back, when warranted. It's warranted. And us over here debating the rate/level they should be "allowed" is beyond ridiculous.

All I'm gonna say. I'm on the right side of this, and history. So I don't give two swinging fucks about what a bunch of Apple dorks/strangers have to say about it on the Internet (sorry). I'm an idiot for even dare wade into this shit, knowing what I know about the joint. I'm only thankful a couple of our more brick-throwing, abusive and mouthy members have flown the coop (or finally got shown the door, as the case may be).

I'd already be banned, dealing with their stupid baiting/trolling, insolence, unable to keep a civil tongue in my head at such times, which is why I usually avoid stuff like this to start with.

Don't worry about it, Yikes. I'm not the damn problem in any of this, okay? I'm some idiot on a message board in the U.S. I don't have the power or authority to order any actions, or to place troops/tanks anywhere you don't want them to be, etc. Go be indignant at someone else, who matters/controls something. Because it's kinda wasted on me. Do you see me sitting in the Pentagon, on a red hotline phone to Netanyahu, doling out advice/strategy? No, not even.

[turtle]

Just tell him it is ok to kill the Jews (especially the soft target civilians) and he will be fine with what you're posting.

Add smilies to make it better.


* See what I did there?

[turtle]

I vote the Israel/Hamas war be moved to its own thread. I don't envision this getting better.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by turtle I vote the Israel/Hamas war be moved to its own thread. I don't envision this getting better.

Done!

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by turtle Just tell him it is ok to kill the Jews (especially the soft target civilians) and he will be fine with what you're posting.

There should be a new motto:

"End anti-semitisim! End Jewish self defense!"

We'll hang it on all the billboards. If there aren't any Jews, there won't be any anti-semitism. See how convenient that is? In a nutshell, that was Hitler's "solution". If we can get rid of all of them, then they won't be a problem.

And, for what it's worth, I just spent half a day in the Holocaust Museum in D.C.

The Jews have brought a lot of trouble on themselves over the millennia, but that sort of treatment (the holocaust) cannot be allowed to happen ever again. Nor can it be allowed to happen to Palestinians who are just trying to raise their families. But, when those families stand idly by whilst their overlords haul many thousands of rockets into civilian neighborhoods and then pummel families on the other side of the fence, well, either stand up and point out the criminal bastards, or get ready for some slightly more sophisticated rocketry.

[709]

Fuck Israel* and its ethnic-cleansing, hard right government and Netanyahu especially.

*Not the Jews though! I love all my tea-saucer-hatted friends!



plz no ban i love bagels

[kscherer]

I see what you did there.

I do have a question for you, though:

With no Israel, where are you planning to put all those "tea-saucer-hatted" people?

[709]

Things difficult to find in the Middle East:

A): Peace.
B): The good guys.

[turtle]

Originally Posted by kscherer Done!

Thanks!

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by 709 Things difficult to find in the Middle East: A): Peace. B): The good guys.

C) People's whose life goal/"career" isn't "throwing rocks" and "stirring shit up".

[drewprops]

The attack feels like stage one of a military plan, but nothing else has happened.

Hezbollah is apparently making noises over in Jordan?

It's going to be a mess when the Israelis go into Gaza.

I wonder if there will be LARGE boom boom traps set up for them, baited as they have been into that tangle.

This won't be a two-cycle news story, and it will engender debates and finger pointing elsewhere, as it has done here.

I love my Jewish friends dearly, and my Arabic friends as well. And my Christian Arab friends.

You cannot cram such radical ideologies into such a small patch without conflict.

Even if you sank it below the sea and rocketed the two peoples to different planets, some of them would find a way to fight.

While many would just try to lead their simple lives surrounded by the people they love.

Bless us all, may the best options available happen in the coming months and years.

...

[709]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 C) People's whose life goal/"career" isn't "throwing rocks" and "stirring shit up".

[709]

Originally Posted by drewprops The attack feels like stage one of a military plan, but nothing else has happened. . . . It's going to be a mess when the Israelis go into Gaza. I wonder if there will be LARGE boom boom traps set up for them, baited as they have been into that tangle.

That seems to be the consensus among calmer minds - that it is indeed a trap. Not necessarily a military 'boom boom' one, but a political/financial one that benefits from Israel's inevitable over-reaction. War crimes, human rights atrocities, etc play well to a middle saying maybe we shouldn't be funding genocide by continuing Israel's monthly billions of dollar handout. And of course Iran benefits immensely from players in the ME not holding hands, at least while we're still slurping oil.


I'm hoping AI, in its increasingly likely physical incarnation (less fuck-robot, more Skynet, alas), can do better. I'm betting strongly that they are key players in the seven trumpets and the latter woes. The sooner the better, I say. Let's get this fucking show on the road.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by 709 Things difficult to find in the Middle East: A): Peace. B): The good guys.

The answer is simple.

A) Never
B) There are none



D) Look at the mess you created WWI/WWII/all of history.

[Ryan]

The way I see it:

a) Hamas is evil.
b) Israel has a right to exist.
c) Palestinians have a right to exist.
d) Netanyahu is at best incompetent, at worst evil himself.
e) American voices on this are completely useless. You've got the antisemites, the Islamophobes, the end-times lunatics who support war in Israel to usher in the apocalypse, leftists viewing it through a totally inappropriate anticolonialist lens (it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that) and so on.

Except what The Onion wrote, they're the only ones to get it right so far: https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-s...-yo-1850922505

[Yikes!]

Originally Posted by Ryan The way I see it: a) Hamas is evil. b) Israel has a right to exist. c) Palestinians have a right to exist. d) Netanyahu is at best incompetent, at worst evil himself. e) American voices on this are completely useless. You've got the antisemites, the Islamophobes, the end-times lunatics who support war in Israel to usher in the apocalypse, leftists viewing it through a totally inappropriate anticolonialist lens (it's a hell of a lot more complicated than that) and so on. Except what The Onion wrote, they're the only ones to get it right so far: https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-s...-yo-1850922505

Nailed it.

[crazychester]

40% of Gaza’s population are 15 years old or younger.

[Yikes!]

Originally Posted by crazychester 40% of Gaza’s population are 15 years old or younger.

“Sucks to be them. Living where you do, it was gonna happen to you sooner or later anyway That’s war. get ready for some slightly more sophisticated rocketry”.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Yikes! Sucks to be them. That’s war. get ready for some slightly more sophisticated rocketry.

GTFO with that bullshit. Those are kids, not combatants.