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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2020-10-22, 10:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Do you have any idea what a 200 kWh battery costs?

Tesla tops out at 100 kWh, even on models that cost $150k and with their enormous economies of scale and manufacturing experience for battery production
I doubt if GM is shooting for much of a profit on this thing. More than likely they're trying really hard to get a product out there to compete with Tesla and Rivian purely on design aesthetic and cost, and not so much on profit. Rivian and the Hummer look very good. They're both a strong take on modern American truck design (which, by the way, includes Toyota and Nissan), whereas the Tesla thing looks like some 4-year old kid's bad Lego abomination. Such traditional designs will take away a lot of the early talk from Tesla and redirect it toward trucks that actually look good.

Also, GM is using a very different battery than Tesla, which may or may not cost more or less.

This feels more like a Corvette ZR1 type project than anything else. Made in small numbers, very expensive, aimed at the price-is-no-object end of the market, very desirable, etc.

And that big battery is likely a $10,000-$20,000 upgrade, just as the big battery is with Tesla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
So is this thread EV only or can we discuss the sexy new Bronco?
The sexy new Bronco is … sexy! Very nice styling. If it wasn't a Ford, I would get drooly.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2020-10-24, 10:06

The fact you think the Hummer and the Bronco look cool and sexy says everything.

Similar arguments have been made for a decade plus now about Tesla vs whatever American auto manufacturers have thrown at them and repeatedly it has proven to be wrong.

GM isn’t committed to this at all. They just want you to think they are. And I don’t think they are in a position to be selling expensive vehicles at a loss when the competition is quickly outpacing them and they haven’t been able to show any evidence they can turn the corner and join the 21st century.

Last edited by Brave Ulysses : 2020-10-24 at 23:10.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2020-10-24, 11:53

The only Tesla owner I know personally (a client) recently dumped the car (model S) because it was so difficult and time consuming to get fixed now that the dealers are closed. The car was gone for over a month because the retracting door handles didn't work. Not cool. That was just the last straw for him, and otherwise he loved the car.
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Yontsey
*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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2020-10-24, 12:16

My cousin has owned 2 Teslas so far. Had a Model X and then got a 3. Had nothing but great experiences with them so far.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-10-24, 15:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
The fact you think the Hummer and the Bronco look cool and sexy says everything.

Similar arguments have been made for a decade plus now about Tesla vs whatever American auto manufacturers have thrown at them and repeatedly it has proven to be wrong.

GM isn’t committed to this at all. They just want you to think they are. And I don’t think they are in a position to be selling expensive vehicles at a loss when the competition is quickly outpacing them and they haven’t been able to show any evidence they can turn the former and join the 21st century.
If GM isn't committed to EV's, someone needs to tell Camaro and Corvette fans.

On the forums I frequent constant complaining how Mary Barra is ruining GM with her EV push and abandoning the ICE and performance cars with V8's and how that will doom GM cause people want V8's.

giggity
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2020-10-24, 23:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
The only Tesla owner I know personally (a client) recently dumped the car (model S) because it was so difficult and time consuming to get fixed now that the dealers are closed. The car was gone for over a month because the retracting door handles didn't work. Not cool. That was just the last straw for him, and otherwise he loved the car.
Don’t know any Tesla owner who would say the same. Customer satisfaction ratings are off the charts compared to other manufacturers.

Most of the time my X needs service it’s done in my garage and handled without any issue via the Tesla app and text message. In 2.5 years of ownership the only maintenance costs have been tires and windshield wiper blades.
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Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2020-10-24, 23:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
If GM isn't committed to EV's, someone needs to tell Camaro and Corvette fans.

On the forums I frequent constant complaining how Mary Barra is ruining GM with her EV push and abandoning the ICE and performance cars with V8's and how that will doom GM cause people want V8's.
Easy to ruin GM when it was already ruined. Don’t blame EVs.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2020-10-25, 01:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Don’t know any Tesla owner who would say the same. Customer satisfaction ratings are off the charts compared to other manufacturers.

Most of the time my X needs service it’s done in my garage and handled without any issue via the Tesla app and text message. In 2.5 years of ownership the only maintenance costs have been tires and windshield wiper blades.
That’s great, for you, I’m sure. As I said, he loved the car, and he drove it a lot. The downtime for trivial repairs like the one mentioned pushed him away after years of happy ownership. Our neighbours have one as well, but haven’t asked if they have had any issues.

Low repair is a big incentive for an EV, but here in Canada the model 3 starts at $52k before taxes, so I’m not even considering a Tesla. If it had better range I’d go for a Leaf, but as it stands that just won’t work. Won’t touch a KIA or American auto maker junk with a ten foot pole. Personally I’ll be sticking with Toyota Hybrids for a long time yet, I’ve had no problems and no needlessly easy to break junk that I don’t need (retracting door handles... ).
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Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-10-27, 17:04

Tesla has been doing a good job of appealing to the luxury buyer, and their targeting in that segment helps them in a few ways.
1.)Higher prices help absorb the cost of a decent battery, which helps with range anxiety, and (2.) luxury segment likely has more short term leasing than the rest of the market. Customer trading in for a new model every three years masks longevity concerns.

I'd argue that a budget conscious buyer will be more concerned about battery performance in years 8,9,10. Someone needs to keep a running total cost of ownership meter for different lease and or ownership periods. I don't want to do all the math on comparing an average ICE vs EV, but I'd like one as a reference.

Let's take me. I've been driving about 25,000-35,000km/year at about 10L/100km for the past decade. That's 300,000km; 30,000L of fuel at about $1/L... Jeezuz, I've spent $30K on regular unleaded in the past 10 years! What I need to know is how much is a replacement battery? How long does it last? And, how much does it cost to charge it up to cover those same 300,000KM over the next ten years? I've read estimates that at contemporary "fuel" prices, EV costs about 1/8th the price per Km vs ICE, but I don't think this entirely accurate to the real cost of electricity, I'd put it closer to 1/6th based on the usual power company pricing shenanigans...

$30,000 in unleaded vs $6,000 in electricity leaves $24,000 for battery replacement costs, not factoring in other maintenance issues...

.........................................
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2020-10-27, 18:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu View Post
Tesla has been doing a good job of appealing to the luxury buyer, and their targeting in that segment helps them in a few ways.
1.)Higher prices help absorb the cost of a decent battery, which helps with range anxiety, and (2.) luxury segment likely has more short term leasing than the rest of the market. Customer trading in for a new model every three years masks longevity concerns.
I don't think they are appealing to luxury buyers at all, at least in the sense that luxury buyers are their primary demographic. The S and X are priced as luxury cars, but a lot of luxury buyers prefer something with better build quality/comfort amenities/etc. And the Y and 3 seem to be being bought in droves not by luxury buyers, but by upper middle class people who want a Tesla. It's like saying Apple is a luxury brand... or ever was. Apple costs more, but people want to buy an Apple because it's a Mac or an iPhone and everything that comes with it.

Quote:
I'd argue that a budget conscious buyer will be more concerned about battery performance in years 8,9,10. Someone needs to keep a running total cost of ownership meter for different lease and or ownership periods. I don't want to do all the math on comparing an average ICE vs EV, but I'd like one as a reference.

Let's take me. I've been driving about 25,000-35,000km/year at about 10L/100km for the past decade. That's 300,000km; 30,000L of fuel at about $1/L... Jeezuz, I've spent $30K on regular unleaded in the past 10 years! What I need to know is how much is a replacement battery? How long does it last? And, how much does it cost to charge it up to cover those same 300,000KM over the next ten years? I've read estimates that at contemporary "fuel" prices, EV costs about 1/8th the price per Km vs ICE, but I don't think this entirely accurate to the real cost of electricity, I'd put it closer to 1/6th based on the usual power company pricing shenanigans...

$30,000 in unleaded vs $6,000 in electricity leaves $24,000 for battery replacement costs, not factoring in other maintenance issues...
That's making the assumption that you would actually have to replace the battery. From what I have seen, battery longevity has less to do with how many miles are on it, and more to do with following battery best practices for health. None the less, it's hard to predict what the replacement battery cost might be 8-10 years from now. Presumably significantly cheaper than today. There are actually Teslas out there with the mileage you describe that are still on their original battery. They have seen battery degradation. But not to the point that it justifies replacement. As battery capacities increase, the longevity of the battery should also increase.

But, those other maintenance costs are equally significant. Again, my only out of pocket maintenance cost for my Model X since September 2018 has been one set of new tires, and one set of new wiper blades. The brake pads still look like they are brand new despite living in the rockies and towing a trailer with my model X.... regenerative braking is pretty cool and saves money.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2020-10-27, 22:03

Can't I like the Teslas and the other brands?

I think the new Broncos are sexy as hell but I can't justify buying one.

The new Hummer EV is sexy but a luxury - aimed right at the Tesla truck buyer.

That leaves me out.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
  quote
Brave Ulysses
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2020-10-27, 22:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Can't I like the Teslas and the other brands?

I think the new Broncos are sexy as hell but I can't justify buying one.

The new Hummer EV is sexy but a luxury - aimed right at the Tesla truck buyer.

That leaves me out.


...
Of course you can.

Except The “new” hummer EV is a fake.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/37226/...-hummer-ev-yet
  quote
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-10-28, 09:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
I don't think they are appealing to luxury buyers at all, at least in the sense that luxury buyers are their primary demographic. The S and X are priced as luxury cars, but a lot of luxury buyers prefer something with better build quality/comfort amenities/etc. And the Y and 3 seem to be being bought in droves not by luxury buyers, but by upper middle class people who want a Tesla. It's like saying Apple is a luxury brand... or ever was. Apple costs more, but people want to buy an Apple because it's a Mac or an iPhone and everything that comes with it.
I think I used the past tense correctly here - they have been appealing (and continue) to appeal to luxury buyers with many of the S and X models. That is how they established the brand. I live in one of their most successful regions and they are cross shopped with upper-mid, and upper tier Mercedes/BMW fare. This is luxury brand positioning. Model X sells for $122,000-208,000CAD. Model S ranges from 105,000-132,000CAD. For comparison, Mercedes GLS starts at about 100,000CAD to over 160,000 for the AMD version. An S class Sedan starts at 109,000CAD and goes up to $260,000 for a bonkers AMD version. These buyers are in the same deciles...

The 3 and Y are the new additions to the family. They're the 3 series BMW, or whatever Mercedes and Lexus is selling in the segment. Saying that Tesla isn't a luxury brand is like saying a Mercedes isn't a luxury SUV because it isn't a Rolls Cullinan... It's not all about price, but the intersect of price, segmentation, features and desirability. Apple is also a luxury brand of a different sort - typically called a "lifestyle" brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
That's making the assumption that you would actually have to replace the battery. From what I have seen, battery longevity has less to do with how many miles are on it, and more to do with following battery best practices for health. None the less, it's hard to predict what the replacement battery cost might be 8-10 years from now. Presumably significantly cheaper than today. There are actually Teslas out there with the mileage you describe that are still on their original battery. They have seen battery degradation. But not to the point that it justifies replacement. As battery capacities increase, the longevity of the battery should also increase.

But, those other maintenance costs are equally significant. Again, my only out of pocket maintenance cost for my Model X since September 2018 has been one set of new tires, and one set of new wiper blades. The brake pads still look like they are brand new despite living in the rockies and towing a trailer with my model X.... regenerative braking is pretty cool and saves money.
Don't get me wrong, I think the EV is already there in some markets - as far as TCO (total cost of ownership) compared to similarly priced ICE models, and will only get better.

.........................................
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2020-10-28, 15:01

Battery replacement anxiety might be a real thing, but the batteries can and do last a long time. Hybrids tell us they can, when used a fair bit. My 2008 Camry Hybrid (August 2007 Build date) still has the original battery with no sign of problems, albeit it is not a lithium battery pack.

That said look at the trouble early Leaf owners are in, five years old and batteries are dying and it’s basically impossible to get a new one. Owners are told, “just buy a new car”.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-03-20, 00:39

The 2022 Honda Civic has leaked and I dug up this old thread so that I could specifically rant about how bad the hood makes this car look – specifically the way it meets closest to the firewall. It's awful.



I don't know why this bothers me so much, but it really does.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2021-03-20, 10:53

The Civic has looked ugly for a long time now, so does it really matter? The oversized grill stuff that is popular right now, on all cars, is getting just plain silly. Makes me appreciate the absence of them on the electric cars.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2021-03-20, 11:44

Also... does the average Civic buyer care? It's a good-value car that can take a couple hundred thousand miles without flinching.

It's a car for people who don't want to worry about their car very much.

Unrelated, I just got back from a photography workshop in the Big Bend area. Due to covid I followed the guide in my car (he had a Ram truck). He didn't think I'd be able to get my little Subaru over some of the backroads we took chasing birds but I made it no problem.

I'm thinking about upgrading the tires to a set of Falken Wildpeak A/Ts and maybe throwing a set of skid plates underneath to increase the offroad capability of my Crosstrek.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-03-20, 11:53

Yep. If I was going to buy another small car, the Civic would be very high on my list. Cheap, good gas mileage, and reliable.

Sorry, Drew, but the hood-line would not be a factor in my purchasing decision. On a Vette, or a Maserati, or some other $60,000+ car? yes. On a full-size truck? yes. We had a Ford Fiesta, and it was ugly as hell. But, it got GREAT gas mileage (although it had a defective clutch and we had to use the Lemon Law to get rid of it).

Point being, low-cost high MPG cars are usually pretty bland. I mean, other than Tesla, the electrics and hybrids are all pretty fugly*.

* I haven't seen them all, so don't kill me!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2021-03-20, 15:33

The 2G Leaf isn't that bad, for a compact. The Bolt? The G2 is better, but still an ugly car.

If I was buying for looks I'd get a Porsche 911, most cars under $50-80k look like copy cat blobs anyway. Looks just are not high on the list of things I care about in a vehicle, I'm with kscherer on the reliability and gas mileage. I drive the most "boring" of all cars after all, a Camry Hybrid. Feels good with a nice set of tires though.
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Mac+
9" monochrome
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: I'm here
 
2021-03-20, 17:53

Seeing this thread bumped, I thought I’d chime in with an anecdote - in the realms of something now owns me, but it’s something I’ll never own.

This week, I was fortunate enough to be invited on an AMG drive day (courtesy of another company) and all I can say is the E63s is beautifully brutal in all the right ways.

Looks and cabin fitout are superb. MB UX fantastic. But the performance was the kicker. The takeoff was like what I can only imagine a jet fighter is like. It’s amazing this car only requires a driver’s licence.

I’m not really a car person, but I was impressed!
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...g-e63-s-review

All I want is a simple life
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-03-20, 19:18

I'm about to eat dinner, but 4.0 litre twin turbo??

Yikes.

...
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tomoe
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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2021-03-20, 19:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac+ View Post
Seeing this thread bumped, I thought I’d chime in with an anecdote - in the realms of something now owns me, but it’s something I’ll never own.

This week, I was fortunate enough to be invited on an AMG drive day (courtesy of another company) and all I can say is the E63s is beautifully brutal in all the right ways.

Looks and cabin fitout are superb. MB UX fantastic. But the performance was the kicker. The takeoff was like what I can only imagine a jet fighter is like. It’s amazing this car only requires a driver’s licence.

I’m not really a car person, but I was impressed!
https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/...g-e63-s-review
Came across the wagon variant of this back in September when we were looking for a new car. Was impressed with it after watching this review, but no way in hell were we going to drop $120k on a wagon lol.

Ended up coming to our senses and bought a boring, reliable 2021 Toyota Rav4 hybrid. Coincidentally had the exact trim, options, and color we wanted, so it worked out. Also got a few thousand $ off because the dealer had incorrectly listed it as a 2020 (they honored the incorrect price, but we had to buy it that day).

Seen a man standin' over a dead dog lyin' by the highway in a ditch
He's lookin' down kinda puzzled pokin' that dog with a stick
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2021-03-20, 19:27

Hows the RAV4 Hybrid doing? I'm thinking of upgrading to one in the next year or two.
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Yontsey
*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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2021-03-20, 19:34

My uncle has a matte black MB G Wagon AMG. That thing is pretty awesome tbh.
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Mac+
9" monochrome
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: I'm here
 
2021-03-20, 21:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yontsey View Post
My uncle has a matte black MB G Wagon AMG. That thing is pretty awesome tbh.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0D5S...Red_Hill_South

Oh yeah, the G Wagon was amazing.

There’s a photo from the day. If anybody can work out how to embed that, please let me know!

All I want is a simple life
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Yontsey
*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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2021-03-21, 00:27

I fuck with him all the time asking when he's going to be going on safari's through Africa. They have Tesla's, Range Rovers, Mercedes, ect. It's fun playing over there.

Die young and save yourself....
@yontsey
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