[hmurchison]

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/ul...d/default.mspx


I'm NOT digging the obvious laptop feel of the keyboad but the design looks halfway decent. It looks like a new take on ergonomic keyboards.

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/ul...ser_header.jpg

I'm hoping that Apple redoes their input devices either this year with the Mac Pro or next year. I frankly don't like the feel or looks of Apple's current input devices.

[Windowsrookie]

I was always fine with their hardware. The xbox rocks.

[hmurchison]

Microsoft input devices are generally pretty decent. IMO

[atomicbartbeans]

Not to be a snob, but that looks like a gratuitous overuse of black plastic bezeling around the sides and rear... and wtf is with the gaudy vista logo smack-dab in the middle of the palmrest? Reminds me of the massive green medallion on the original Xbox controllers... it'd also be loads more useful if it had an integrated trackpad. Ever try to use a mouse on your knee?

Besides that, looks like a solid keyboard... seems like Microsoft has trimmed down (slightly) the dozens of function keys that typically adorn their peripherals.

[Windowsrookie]

Well god forbid Microsoft puts their logo on their hardware.

[atomicbartbeans]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie Well god forbid Microsoft puts their logo on their hardware.

Ah, but it's a Windows Vista logo.

What does a keyboard have to do with the operating system? It's not like you need a special "Windows-branded keyboard" to run Windows, any more than you'd need an Apple keyboard to run OS X.

Why not put a Microsoft logo tastefully to the side, rather than a bulging Vista logo on the palmrest?

[Windowsrookie]

But, what if the keyboard only works with windows.?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans Why not put a Microsoft logo tastefully to the side, rather than a bulging Vista logo on the palmrest?

Look closer, there already is a Microsoft logo in the top right. That's not enough.

[atomicbartbeans]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie But, what if the keyboard only works with windows.?

Why would any keyboard manufacturer shut out potential customers like that?

It's not like Microsoft is trying to sell Windows Vista through keyboards... nobody would say "hm, let's upgrade to Vista so we can use that shiny new keyboard".

Besides, all USB keyboards (in my experience) cornform to standard HID guidelines that all OSes use. It's not a specialized peripheral that requires manufacturer-specific drivers.

[Windowsrookie]

This is Microsoft we're talking about....

[dark54555]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans Not to be a snob, but that looks like a gratuitous overuse of black plastic bezeling around the sides and rear... and wtf is with the gaudy vista logo smack-dab in the middle of the palmrest? Reminds me of the massive green medallion on the original Xbox controllers... it'd also be loads more useful if it had an integrated trackpad. Ever try to use a mouse on your knee? Besides that, looks like a solid keyboard... seems like Microsoft has trimmed down (slightly) the dozens of function keys that typically adorn their peripherals.

It's not black. That's a picture of it in the dark.

[dark54555]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie This is Microsoft we're talking about....

Yeah, and to date, all of the MS keyboards and mice have worked on any OS.

Can't say as much for Logitech lately...

[Windowsrookie]

Whatever, Apple has their logo on the cinema displays, but they work with windows computers also.

[jondaapplegeek]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie But, what if the keyboard only works with windows.?

I've just looked at their preview movie/flash thing.
There is a HotKey for gadgets, so I am guessing that certain features of the keyboard will indeed only work with Windows Vista

[macleod]

Yeah the whole Vista part makes me think it might have very limited use on anything but Vista.

[BarracksSi]

Originally Posted by atomicbartbeans ... but that looks like a gratuitous overuse of black plastic bezeling around the sides and rear...

That makes it easier to pick up and move around without accidentally pressing any keys.

[elvismac]

Why would anyone be interested in a keyboard without a number pad? The laptop it's going to be connected to presumably already has its own cut down half useless keyboard. Surely nobody would use it for a desktop computer?

[scratt]

Oooo look! M$ are copying other peoples ideas again...

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by windowsrookie Whatever, Apple has their logo on the cinema displays, but they work with windows computers also.

Apple doesn't have an OS X logo on Cinema Displays.

[Koodari]

My impressions -

The basic shape and design is quite OK. I love keyboards without numeric pads!

BTW, elvismac, maybe 10% of all computer users are familiar enough with a numeric pad to gain speed benefit from it. For the rest, the pad is strictly harmful. It duplicates existing buttons, so speed benefit is all it has to offer. It's located where the mouse should be for a right-handed user, so it makes the ergonomics of going to the mouse worse. It takes table space. It unbalances the keyboard if you'd like to keep the keyboard in your lap. I wonder is why the majority of computer keyboards still *have* the numpad, especially when separate USB numpads are available for $15, and Logitech/Microsoft/Keytronic etc could easily offer their own to exactly match the design of their particular keyboard. My guess, it's just the usual featuritis. Computer designers don't remove features even when they hurt the user on average. Besides, if the other company offers a 104-key keyboard at the same price, we can't go with a measly 80 or 90, can we?

After starting with a relatively goodlooking and ergonomic setup, the MS designers then made the thing look significantly worse with cheap details.

They left out standard function keys - WTF? I can sort of understand why my Happy Hacking keyboard doesn't have them - it is designed to be very small - but there's no excuse for not having them when the MS keyboard has plenty of empty space and a bunch of nonstandard keys.

I agree with BarracksSi's observation that a bezel makes it easier to pick up and move the keyboard, but why is it so much wider on the left than on the right?

[evan]

the bezel itself is the same on both sides... there's just more weird buttons within it on the left side.

(yes, I'm being a smartass)

[arnoct]

Originally Posted by Koodari BTW, elvismac, maybe 10% of all computer users are familiar enough with a numeric pad to gain speed benefit from it.

You are very very wrong. Anyone who wants to enter more than a few numbers will use the number pad--I don't know of ANYONE, even my computer illiterate grandparents, who doesn't use the pad. When I buy a keyboard, especially an expensive one like this, I want a 104-key keyboard. I don't want a keyboard that has taken things off of the normal design. Saying we could buy a $15 USB numpad to replace something which should be there already is stupid. I'm not going to buy an expensive keyboard just to have to buy something else to add something standard.

[jondaapplegeek]

I agree arnoct, I very rarely use the numbers along the top without the shift key pressed down. And i know very few people who do.

[elvismac]

=Koodari]My impressions - The basic shape and design is quite OK. I love keyboards without numeric pads! BTW, elvismac, maybe 10% of all computer users are familiar enough with a numeric pad to gain speed benefit from it. For the rest, the pad is strictly harmful. It duplicates existing buttons, so speed benefit is all it has to offer. It's located where the mouse should be for a right-handed user, so it makes the ergonomics of going to the mouse worse.

Nope, everyone is familiar with the number pad from such devices like telephones and calculators. Not using the number pad when one is available is purely inefficient and surely a sign of inexperience. The numbers along the top of the keyboard are the needless duplication and would be better used if the signs and symbols were immediately available without the use of the shift key. Personally, having the mouse placed out further to the right is a good opportunity to move my arm and wrist, stretching the tendons and hopefully avoiding RSI. Having the mouse sitting in the same place as my numberpad makes my wrist ache just thinking about it. But if we're going to lose the keypad to save on space, maybe the arrow keys can be removed too, then the mouse could move in a little closer again. After all the arrow keys just duplicate what can be achieved with the mouse.

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by arnoct You are very very wrong. Anyone who wants to enter more than a few numbers will use the number pad--I don't know of ANYONE, even my computer illiterate grandparents, who doesn't use the pad.

Before you say I'm wrong, it would be beneficial not to skip words and sentences on my post. I did not say that people wouldn't use the pad. I said they don't gain from doing so.

The pad is visually prominent. and (obviously) better for entering long strings of numbers, so it follows that people will use it when it's there. How many of them would go out of their way to get one if there wasn't one? We'd see if keyboards did not come with numpads by default.

Looking at the utility angle, it is not enough grounds for the inclusion of a numpad that it is better at entering a long string of numbers. That is not in dispute. The important points are how much it helps with number entry, how much it hurts with other activity and how your time is divided between these two things. This is for every user separately.

Let's say I pay my bills once a week and spend 10 minutes doing so. This is the only time I process numbers long enough that I would use a numpad if I had one. Further, let's assume I'm on the computer one hour per day. That's 420 minutes per week. Now if I could pay my bills twice as fast on the numpad - an incredible 100% increase in efficiency! - I'd save five minutes per week. But what about the rest of the time? If the numpad is even as much as a 1% drain on me (through the ways I listed in the last post), it costs me 4 1/3 minutes, and we're back to even and there is no point in including the pad.

When I buy a keyboard, especially an expensive one like this, I want a 104-key keyboard. I don't want a keyboard that has taken things off of the normal design. Saying we could buy a $15 USB numpad to replace something which should be there already is stupid..

No reason to get defensive. I talked about average people and said most keyboards should not have a numpad. No one is threatening your classic 104-key. If I was running a keyboard company, I'd offer all my keyboard models without numpad (same style USB pad available separately), and some with integral numpad. Top end model, value model and bottom end model for instance.

Most people have no clue about computer usability, and get their keyboard as part of a computer package or one of the cheapest models available at the first store they went to. Right now none of these cheap boards come without a numpad, so the average person ends up with a numpad keyboard by default. The question whether they want one or not never comes up. A pad-less keyboard with the same price would actually make sense for most of them. Obviously, it costs less to manufacture a pad-less board (components, materials, storage, shipping all cost less for a smaller, lighter product) so it would deliver good margins at the same price than the cheapest board with pad. Therefore it would make sense for the company making them.

[scratt]

I for one NEVER use the numeric keypad.. On laptops, or full sized keyboards.

Never have done, never will do, and I have been both programming and using computers every day for the last 26 years.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by scratt I for one NEVER use the numeric keypad.. On laptops, or full sized keyboards. Never have done, never will do, and I have been both programming and using computers every day for the last 26 years.

Ditto.

[elvismac]

Originally Posted by Koodari The pad is visually prominent. and (obviously) better for entering long strings of numbers, so it follows that people will use it when it's there. How many of them would go out of their way to get one if there wasn't one? We'd see if keyboards did not come with numpads by default.

The pad is better for entering a short two digit string also. Given that a standard keyboard incorporates a keypad, and has done for my entire computing life, it is significant proof that they are thought of as a positive addition to the keyboard unit. If they weren't, I'm sure popular opinion would have gotten rid of them by now.

Looking at the utility angle, it is not enough grounds for the inclusion of a numpad that it is better at entering a long string of numbers. That is not in dispute. The important points are how much it helps with number entry, how much it hurts with other activity and how your time is divided between these two things. This is for every user separately.

You've agreed that number pads are a superior input device for entering numbers, but haven't shown how they hurt other activity, other than they mean the mouse sits a whole 3 inches further to the right.

Let's say I pay my bills once a week and spend 10 minutes doing so. This is the only time I process numbers long enough that I would use a numpad if I had one. Further, let's assume I'm on the computer one hour per day. That's 420 minutes per week. Now if I could pay my bills twice as fast on the numpad - an incredible 100% increase in efficiency! - I'd save five minutes per week. But what about the rest of the time? If the numpad is even as much as a 1% drain on me (through the ways I listed in the last post), it costs me 4 1/3 minutes, and we're back to even and there is no point in including the pad.No reason to get defensive. I talked about average people and said most keyboards should not have a numpad. No one is threatening your classic 104-key. If I was running a keyboard company, I'd offer all my keyboard models without numpad (same style USB pad available separately), and some with integral numpad. Top end model, value model and bottom end model for instance. Most people have no clue about computer usability, and get their keyboard as part of a computer package or one of the cheapest models available at the first store they went to. Right now none of these cheap boards come without a numpad, so the average person ends up with a numpad keyboard by default. The question whether they want one or not never comes up. A pad-less keyboard with the same price would actually make sense for most of them. Obviously, it costs less to manufacture a pad-less board (components, materials, storage, shipping all cost less for a smaller, lighter product) so it would deliver good margins at the same price than the cheapest board with pad. Therefore it would make sense for the company making them.

I'm not sure what angle you're coming at, usability, the 'average user' or the microeconomics of a keyboard manufacturer? Did you consider the additional cost of an entirely different production line involving designs, moulds, staff, packaging plant etc for a separate number pad? Given that most generic keyboards come with a number pad is probably proof that the insignificant marginal cost of incorporating the number pad into the keyboard is far smaller than the costs of operating an additional production line. Additionally, the extra USB port that the end user has to provide to plug the number pad into has an economic cost paid for by that end user. Maybe the keyboard manufacturer could build a hub into the keyboard sans number pad, but that would increase their costs.

As for knowing what is in the best interests of the average user or indeed what they want, that's a nonsense. The average user is a combo of what I want, what you want and what everyone else here wants.

[Koodari]

Originally Posted by elvismac The pad is better for entering a short two digit string also.

Mostly not true. Consider the circumstances you do this in. (I assume a right-handed pad/mouse user here for clarity.) If you are touch typing a bunch of text and the numbers are in the middle of the text, there is no way on earth for short numbers to come out faster from the pad, because you would need to move your hand. Consider the following ordinary text:

City Administration CentrePO Box 489282 King Street, Newcastle NSW 23008.30am - 5.00pm Monday to Friday Phone (02) 4974 2000Works Depot	 Turton Road, Waratah7.00am -3.30pm Monday to FridayPhone (02) 4974 6000

The keypad would hinder, not help, you with that no matter how good you were at using it.

The pad starts looking good when the numbers lengthen or when you enter several of them in a row (probably using tab or such to jump fields, since you wouldn't want to sacrifice your position on the pad by grabbing the mouse).

Given that a standard keyboard incorporates a keypad, and has done for my entire computing life, it is significant proof that they are thought of as a positive addition to the keyboard unit. If they weren't, I'm sure popular opinion would have gotten rid of them by now.

The standard computer incorporates Windows. Is it significant proof that Windows is thought of as a positive addition to the computer, or is it inertia? Does the average user think of Windows at all?

Besides that, there's the chicken and egg problem that cheap keyboards without keypad are not being produced and are not on the store shelves. Even if people cared about this, which they don't, how would the popular opinion achieve a choice between keypad and no-pad when there is only one kind of product available save for specialty stores?

You've agreed that number pads are a superior input device for entering numbers, but haven't shown how they hurt other activity, other than they mean the mouse sits a whole 3 inches further to the right.

Okay, here's a copy-paste from my earlier post: "It takes table space. It unbalances the keyboard if you'd like to keep the keyboard in your lap."
This is a slippery slope. Since three inches is not a big deal, why not add a few buttons for app launching and multimedia? They'd only take an inch or two more. And then we could add some more...

More features does not better product make.

I'm not sure what angle you're coming at, usability, the 'average user' or the microeconomics of a keyboard manufacturer?

It should be obvious, but I'm coming from the angle of average user usability. The remarks about manufacture were just to show that once there was reasonable volume, the padless keyboard would be somewhat cheaper to make, ship, store and have on the shelf, so it becoming mainstream should be welcome to the keyboard manufacturers and computer stores.

Did you consider the additional cost of an entirely different production line involving designs, moulds, staff, packaging plant etc for a separate number pad?

These are already being produced cheaply despite the overwhelming majority of keyboards having integral numpads. Nothing forces a keyboard manufacturer to make keypads if it isn't profitable. I imagine, though, that people would be happy to pay a small premium for a keypad that matches their keyboard instead of a generic one, and as the branded keypad doesn't really cost any more to produce, this would be good business. Remember, we're now talking about a situation where the majority of keyboards is shipped without a numpad so the volume of demand is great.

Given that most generic keyboards come with a number pad is probably proof that the insignificant marginal cost of incorporating the number pad into the keyboard is far smaller than the costs of operating an additional production line. Additionally, the extra USB port that the end user has to provide to plug the number pad into has an economic cost paid for by that end user. Maybe the keyboard manufacturer could build a hub into the keyboard sans number pad, but that would increase their costs.

There's an unstated assumption here that says "everyone must still have a keypad no matter what" and that the cost to each end user is keyboard+keypad. No. Most of the people would not have a keypad at all. Those who know they need one would have an integral keypad like now. Those who get a regular (without keypad) keyboard but later discover they could really use one, would likely get an external keypad, which would be on the shelf of every computer store and even cheaper than now.

As for knowing what is in the best interests of the average user or indeed what they want, that's a nonsense. The average user is a combo of what I want, what you want and what everyone else here wants.

No one wants their purchase to be slow, bulky, costly, awkward or difficult. If we really couldn't say anything about what makes the average person happy with a product, we could do away with research and development and either ask every customer in painstaking detail what they want, or we could pick up small rocks and sell those to everyone regardless of what they say they need.

When you fly, you don't bother with the details of which brand of seat is most comfortable and which catering company the airline should use. No, you order a "flight" and expect the company to make educated guesses about your needs. You observe if the end result is good and if it is, you go back to the same company for more.

[elvismac]

The standard computer incorporates Windows. Is it significant proof that Windows is thought of as a positive addition to the computer, or is it inertia? Does the average user think of Windows at all?

The 'average' user chooses a Windows PC, when they had a Mac as an option. If the Mac system really is/was better than Windows in the eye's of the 90% market share advantage Windows enjoys, then the 15 years or however long Windows has been around for is ample time for sluggishness in peoples computer buying habits to flow through. What we face now is a situation where the 'average' user has decided the Mac system either isn't better or its advantages don't cover the transactions costs of changing. Mac's are only better in our opinion, it's arrogant to think our own choices are better than someone else's.

Back to keyboards, the common theme to each of your postings on this matter is that the 'average' person doesn't want a numberpad integrated in their keyboard. This position can't be supported. You stated that all things being equal, a keyboard without a numberpad is cheaper due to reasons concerning the marginal input cost reduction and the lower packaging, transport and storage costs. If the average user does not want a numberpad on their keyboard, and a keyboard without a numberpad is cheaper to produce, why in a global economy that largely follows a model of efficiency targeting and shareholder wealth maximisation is every keyboard I can see from my desk, every keyboard in the Apple Centre store I was in on the weekend and every other keyboard owned by anyone I can think of have an integral numberpad? That is the challenge to your asertion that people don't want the numberpad. Arguements that it's because people are too disinterested in their keyboard to care don't wash because the supply side of the keyboard model would have removed the numberpad to save money in the face of consumer disinterest. Computers used to have 5.25" and 3.5" floppy drives. When users stopped using them, manufacturers removed them from computers because floppy drives cost money.