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Why no Adobe Flash on the iPod/iPhone? (split from iPhone OS 3.0 thread)


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Why no Adobe Flash on the iPod/iPhone? (split from iPhone OS 3.0 thread)
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Satchmo
can't read sarcasm.
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
2009-03-17, 13:41

Awesome upgrade.

Too bad no tethering but not that big a deal.

Looks like nothing resolved on Flash yet.
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Wyatt
On twitter: @bwyatt
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Near Indianapolis
 
2009-03-17, 13:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satchmo View Post
Awesome upgrade.

Too bad no tethering but not that big a deal.

Looks like nothing resolved on Flash yet.
I still think the lack of flash is a feature.

Hulu's the only site that uses flash that I actually want to see, and I suspect we'll see a native app from them soon, now that the iPhone supports legit video streaming.
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kieran
Tweeting @kierankelly
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York City
 
2009-03-17, 13:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satchmo View Post
Awesome upgrade.

Too bad no tethering but not that big a deal.

Looks like nothing resolved on Flash yet.

Flash is resolved.

It won't be on the iPhone.
  quote
Chinney
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2009-03-17, 20:02

I may be asking a stupid question, but is there Flash support?
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Chinney
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2009-03-17, 20:07

Found the answer:

Quote:
Some of the missing pieces continue to be tethering, which Apple said it's building support for but is leaving up to operators to implement; video capture; voice-dialing; background processing and of course Adobe Flash support.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=37068

What is it with Flash support on the iPhone and on the Touch? I may have missed this in earlier threads, but is there some technical limitation?

In any event, its a pretty big limitation. Flash is all over the Web now. I'd think that Apple would want to be out front on this.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2009-03-17, 20:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
I may be asking a stupid question, but is there Flash support?
Oh god, I hope not.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2009-03-17, 20:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
What is it with Flash support on the iPhone and on the Touch? I may have missed this in earlier threads, but is there some technical limitation?
Basically three things, IIUC:

1. Flash is a massive resource hog, which would tank battery life.
3. Flash is a closed platform and Apple of late likes to promote open web standards like HTML 5 and CSS.
2. The Flash plugin would be proprietary Adobe secret sauce, creating a big external dependency in an environment that Apple otherwise has complete control over.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Chinney
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2009-03-17, 20:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Oh god, I hope not.
Ummm. Why not? Stupid question again maybe, but I really don't understand. I have been stymied without flash sometimes on my Touch, and I don't use it that much for the Web.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
  quote
Chinney
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2009-03-17, 20:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Basically three things, IIUC:

1. Flash is a massive resource hog, which would tank battery life.
3. Flash is a closed platform and Apple of late likes to promote open web standards like HTML 5 and CSS.
2. The Flash plugin would be proprietary Adobe secret sauce, creating a big external dependency in an environment that Apple otherwise has complete control over.
OK, thanks. Just an idea: Would there theoretically be a way to create an iPhone/Touch app to convert Flash? (or is this technically not possible or, perhaps, contrary to Flash proprietary rights?). I am thinking of Flip4Mac, by way of analogy.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
  quote
Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2009-03-17, 20:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
OK, thanks. Just an idea: Would there theoretically be a way to create an iPhone/Touch app to convert Flash? (or is this technically not possible or, perhaps, contrary to Flash proprietary rights?). I am thinking of Flip4Mac, by way of analogy.
Theoretically? Sure. Realistically? Highly doubtful. To the best of my knowledge, there's no good third-party Flash interpreter even for the PC. See Gnash and Swfdec for the leading alternatives. Creating one with a reasonably high level of compatibility with current Flash objects and making it work well on the iPhone would be a Herculean feat.

Also, the previous iPhone SDK has stated:
Quote:
No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Appleā€™s Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s).
So, Apple could reject a Flash app on the above grounds, making the high development costs quite risky.

That said, it also wouldn't surprise me if the third-party players like Gnash and Swfdec are actually breaking Adobe's EULAs, as there's probably a clause or two in there somewhere about not reverse-engineering Adobe's formats and players.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Ryan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2009-03-17, 20:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
OK, thanks. Just an idea: Would there theoretically be a way to create an iPhone/Touch app to convert Flash? (or is this technically not possible or, perhaps, contrary to Flash proprietary rights?). I am thinking of Flip4Mac, by way of analogy.
Flip4Mac doesn't convert anything, it just gives Quicktime the capability to understand some extra formats. The video itself doesn't change.
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Chinney
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2009-03-17, 20:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
Flip4Mac doesn't convert anything, it just gives Quicktime the capability to understand some extra formats. The video itself doesn't change.
Well, that would be fine too, if it could be done for Flash. I am not demanding conversion...interpretation would be fine.
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Chinney
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2009-03-17, 20:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Theoretically? Sure. Realistically? Highly doubtful. To the best of my knowledge, there's no good third-party Flash interpreter even for the PC. See Gnash and Swfdec for the leading alternatives. Creating one with a reasonably high level of compatibility with current Flash objects and making it work well on the iPhone would be a Herculean feat.

Also, the previous iPhone SDK has stated:

So, Apple could reject a Flash app on the above grounds, making the high development costs quite risky.

[...]
Well actually I was thinking of an Apple-developed application for this particular task. I am thinking that this is going to be a significant drawback of the iPhone if Apple does not find a way to address it in one way or another. As I posted previously, Flash is all over the Web now, whether we like it or not.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Brad
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2009-03-17, 21:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
Well actually I was thinking of an Apple-developed application for this particular task. I am thinking that this is going to be a significant drawback of the iPhone if Apple does not find a way to address it in one way or another.
Naysayers have been claiming that Flash would be a massive deal-breaker (bigger than "no copy and paste") since the iPhone was first announced two years ago. Unless sales figures start indicating that users are actually perturbed by the lack of Flash, I can't see Apple committing to the taking on the big technical and political hurdles that such a development would entail.

Besides, if you've ever done Java work on a Mac, you know that Apple isn't very good about keeping up to date with it's implementations of big third-party runtime engines. The thought of Apple rolling its own version of a Flash player is both tantalizing and terrifying at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
As I posted previously, Flash is all over the Web now, whether we like it or not.
Oh, we don't.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Chinney
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2009-03-17, 21:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Naysayers have been claiming that Flash would be a massive deal-breaker (bigger than "no copy and paste") since the iPhone was first announced two years ago. Unless sales figures start indicating that users are actually perturbed by the lack of Flash, I can't see Apple committing to the taking on the big technical and political hurdles that such a development would entail.

[...]
Who's to say that sales would not be higher if Flash were available? As I said, I don't use my Touch for internet ka-noodling that much, but I still find the lack of Flash to be pretty bothersome. And I have heard others who would otherwise be interested in the iPhone mention the lack of Flash as a deal-breaker. (I was told by one person that Flash was necessary to properly use his internal business website - although I find that surprising). In any event, Flash is a reality.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.

Last edited by Chinney : 2009-03-17 at 21:45. Reason: fixed my grammar
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2009-03-17, 21:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post
Whose to say
*twitch*

I think it would be nice if Flash was at least an option - it's one that the competition will have. I mean, part of me hopes that the proliferation of mobile browsers will cause web designers to become less reliant on Flash, but I know that'll never happen anyway, so...

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Satchmo
can't read sarcasm.
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Toronto, Canada
 
2009-03-18, 17:34

After a bit more research, looks like Flash will be available for the Palm Pre sometime by the end of the year. Which probably means early 2010, by which time a new iPhone/Tablet will be out.

More than likely, it'll be more powerful and combined with a Flash-lite, it'll all come together somewhere down the road. I realize the disdain of Flash by many. But it's become so entrenched with webmasters/designers, that it's become a part of the web.
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kdcny
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
 
2009-03-18, 20:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satchmo View Post
After a bit more research, looks like Flash will be available for the Palm Pre sometime by the end of the year.
I do hope that Flash being on all other platforms except for the iPhone will eventually result in a net 'win' for everyone. The more insistent customers are, the more Adobe will be pressured to get their product working on a variety of platforms and hardware reqs, which will hopefully result in an improvement in performance for everyone. Then Apple can say, "Well, now that Adobe's finally improved their product to the point where it won't suck out the battery life and crash the system, we'll implement it."

::sigh:: ...And they'll probably announce free unicorns, too.

The problems with Flash (in my opinion) are multiple, but of the hugest is that it's had virtually no competition, and has perpetuated inefficiency and laziness from Adobe. H.264 support was great, but from an end-user standpoint is basically the only thing I've been able to appreciate over the last few years. The things I hate? How it sucks up CPU usage on Firefox & Safari, and causes Firefox to hang constantly. Where's the streamlining & stability fixes?
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julesstoop
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
 
2009-03-18, 20:34

A lot of what flash does on the web nowadays can be done (soon) in other ways using modern open web standards. So it's more of a convenience for developers than an actual need for content presentation. Apple is betting on the open standards to 'win'.

The only real need for flash remains with video and games, both of which can be (and are) saved by native applications. The most predominant being Apple's own iPhone Youtube app.

Please no flash on the iPhone. On the Mac it's already a big resource hog let alone on platform with about 1% of the computing power of a modern Mac.

A black hole is where god divided by zero.
http://settuno.com/
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