[Moogs]

Well, this is the year that the big push for HD broadcast and DVD will be made, both by manufacturers and from the high towers of the FCC. Many of us will have questions about the different broadcast formats, aspect ratios, interconnect technologies, copyright protection, and all kinds of issues.

Here are some links that I've used from time to time in trying to educate myself, but even as I try to bring myself into the world of video and DVD post-production, I still get confused. So use this thread to ask questions, post findings, etc. And hopefully we can feel free to mention specific products that meet certain requirements etc, without turning it into an Apple or 3rd party product thread.

This is the chance for video pros to really shine and help us underlings come out into the light.

Gub'mint site (seems kind of thin on info but worth it just to see their POV)

How stuff works

Wiki-DTV

HD-DVD / Blu-Ray News

HBO HD


Some questions I am still left with:

1. First we had 720p and 1080i (progressive and interlaced) as the HD broadcast formats, now 1080p is starting to show up. Is there any hope or effort of convergence on this issue? Can we realistically hope that in a couple years all the TV stations at least will broadcast the same type of signal, so that we don't have to scratch our heads when buying a set or monitor?

2. What happens when you watch a 1080i program on a 720p set? Progressive scan devices are not prone to flickering so despite the fewer lines I am inclined to buy a 720p set. In which case, happens if the world does standardize on 1080p, and you watch on a 720p set? Does the signal box automatically covert down to the lower resolution standard?

3. [Will all HD movies be] 16:9, by definition? Or is it like widescreen movie DVDs, where no two aspect ratios are exactly alike?

4. Will it be expensive for studios to re-master their existing movies to HD-DVD, thus passing the cost on to consumers?

I remember when VHS movies were like $25, unadjusted for 20 years of inflation... are we in for the same with High Def DVD formats?

[HOM]

Originally Posted by Moogs Some questions I am still left with: 1. First we had 720p and 1080i (progressive and interlaced) as the HD broadcast formats, now 1080p is starting to show up. Is there any hope or effort of convergence on this issue? Can we realistically hope that in a couple years all the TV stations at least will broadcast the same type of signal, so that we don't have to scratch our heads when buying a set or monitor?

Short answer: No
Long Answer: The type of format a program is in really depends on what type it is. A network drama will look much better in 1080i than 720p because it is usualy slow moving and the interlacing is not an issue. However, sport look much better in 720p because of the 60fps refresh rate and the progressiveness.

The problem/awesomeness of 1080p is that it is too highbandwidth for ATSC broadcasts unless they drop the bit rate way down. So don't expect any non cable/satilite channels to be offered in it. I highly doutb that there are going to be an TV broadcasts at all in 1080p. However, both HD-DVD and Blu Ray are supposed to support 1080p so investing in a more expensive monitor will not be an entire loss.

2. What happens when you watch a 1080i program on a 720p set? Progressive scan devices are not prone to flickering so despite the fewer lines I am inclined to buy a 720p set. In which case, happens if the world does standardize on 1080p, and you watch on a 720p set? Does the signal box automatically covert down to the lower resolution standard?

That all depends on how you are getting your signal and what device is doing to the signal processing. If you are getting your HD OTA then the monitor is going to be doing the downsampling. Some sets are better at this than others. If you are getting your signal from cable/satilite, the set top box can either downsample it for you, leave all broadcasts in their native resolution, or upsample it. Again, some boxes are better than others, but they all tend to be pretty good.

Also keep in mind that some type of display technologies are better at changing resolutions. LCD at lower than native resolution suck, but CRTs and rear projections are much better.

3. Will all HD movies be 16:9, by definition? Or is it like widescreen movie DVDs, where no two aspect ratios are exactly alike?

Depends. Most content should be native 16x9, but some may not and some others may be 4x3. ESPNHD broadcasts in 4x3.

4. Will it be expensive for studios to re-master their existing movies to HD-DVD, thus passing the cost on to consumers? I remember when VHS movies were like $25, unadjusted for 20 years of inflation... are we in for the same with High Def DVD formats?

No and yes. Most if not all studios have converted a significant portion of their library to 4K files which can then be converted to any format they want. That's what they do with DVD's right now. So instead of outputing to MPEG2, they will output to MPEG4 at 1080p (Still way below the 4K threshold). But you can bet your ass that the studios are going to be charging a premuim for their HD content for two major reasons. One, next gen DVD buyers are early adopters that have dropped at least $2000 on their home theaters so the studios are going to rape them. Two, studios are going to build in the 'anti-piracy' price. You're going to be paying a fee for hypotetical pircay of their HD content.

One thing to keep in mind when buying a set is the following: All LCD's are progressive by nature so if it 1920x1080, but it's only listed at 1080i, it is in fact a 1080p display. BUT, some sets, and I shit you not, downsample 1080p content to 1080i and then upsample it back to 1080p for the display. The other thing to note is that some sets may list 1080i/p, but are in fact only 720p sets. They list the resolutions because they can downsample the content. Make sure that any set you buy, if you are going for a 1080i/p set, has 1080 as a native resolution, otherwise you're paying more for nothing.

[Moogs]

Thanks for the detailed answers... looks like everything is in a total state of flux for now. Some follow up questions then...

Depends. Most content should be native 16x9, but some may not and some others may be 4x3. ESPNHD broadcasts in 4x3.

How is this even possible? I thought 4:3 HDTV is a contradiction in terms. All HDTV is by definition wide angle of view, isn't it? Even when ESPN used to have hockey, they would show a simulated view of why it's better to watch in HD, and it was very clearly a 16:9 box. So... I'm confused there. I've never seen any material that suggests HD shows can be broadcast in 4:3. Even in the FCS manuals and software, anything that's 4:3 is referred to as standard definition, and 16:9 high def. Never seen "high def 4:3".

Also keep in mind that some type of display technologies are better at changing resolutions. LCD at lower than native resolution suck, but CRTs and rear projections are much better.

...and plasmas?

Make sure that any set you buy, if you are going for a 1080i/p set, has 1080 as a native resolution, otherwise you're paying more for nothing.

How would one ascertain this? Is there a "native" logo or emblem that you can be sure of, or is this more marketing BS territory, as with computer LCD response times, or scanner "dynamic range"? That would be a fucking nightmare...

[SledgeHammer]

Originally Posted by HOM Two, studios are going to build in the 'anti-piracy' price. You're going to be paying a fee for hypotetical pircay of their HD content.

Worst idea ever. For example, my sister goes to BC. Student dining plans work by putting a dollar value in an account that can be accessed with an ID card. The card is swiped at dining areas to purchase food. Most students don't spend everything on the card, and at the end of the year, they get back whatever's left on their cards, less $200. The money is supposedly to cover theft. So, during the year, students make it their goal to steal their $200 worth of stuff (food/silverware/rolls of napkins/whatever). Just seems like a dumb idea. Now, please go back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Moogs]

Is there any official commentary on this "theft fee" being added? Sounds a little odd to me. As in, the intraweb is a great place for misinformation to be spread. I'm trying to envision an industry executive even hinting at something like this. That's like book stores or any other retail place putting a theft tax in effect. People would boycott galore.

If they intend to do this, it would be much more logical that they'd never utter a word and just set the price, with the "tax" built into it. We'd all be oblivious. To the end consumer, markup is markup... we rarely get enough info to make distinctions in how the markup is "broken down".

[alcimedes]

See Canada and the tax on blank media. It can and has happened. Whether it would fly in the US is another question, but people are sheep and I wouldn't be surprised if it went through.

[Eugene]

You guys might be confusing some terms. For example, DVDs that use NTSC are all the same pixel resolution, 720x480. That is a square pixel ratio of 1.5:1. DVDs will then stretch this into a 4:3 or 16:9 image depending on your television.

Filmmakers are going to continue shooting in whichever aspect ratio they prefer. It could be 4:3, the most common 1.85:1, 2.35:1, 2.66:1, etc. They are likely all going to be presented on your monitor in the same pixel ratio...16:9.

[Eugene]

Plasma technology was basically a stop-gap...to bring somewhat affordable low-profile HD capable monitors to market.

[pkatzman]

Originally Posted by Moogs ...and plasmas?

Plasmas, IIRC, are similar to LCDs in that they possess a "native resolution" and will look like shit when displaying signals significantly lower than that same resolution. That's why so many Plasmas (especially cheaper ones) are often resolutions of 1366x768, most people are still watching the majority of TV in SD, maybe ED, but often not all HD.

[HOM]

Originally Posted by Moogs How is this even possible? I thought 4:3 HDTV is a contradiction in terms. All HDTV is by definition wide angle of view, isn't it? Even when ESPN used to have hockey, they would show a simulated view of why it's better to watch in HD, and it was very clearly a 16:9 box. So... I'm confused there. I've never seen any material that suggests HD shows can be broadcast in 4:3. Even in the FCS manuals and software, anything that's 4:3 is referred to as standard definition, and 16:9 high def. Never seen "high def 4:3".

When they are not broadcasting a sporting event, they have big black bars on the left and right. It's like 'widescreen' DVDs, except the complete opposite.

...and plasmas?

Plasmas have a set resolution and any deviation from that, beit up or down, will result in some quality loss. Will it be enough for you to notice? That's up to your eyes.

How would one ascertain this? Is there a "native" logo or emblem that you can be sure of, or is this more marketing BS territory, as with computer LCD response times, or scanner "dynamic range"? That would be a fucking nightmare...

There is no 'native' logo, but you need to research the fuck out of your purchase. It's like buying a car or a computer. You should know every spec, all the positives and negative of a set before buying it. One thing you can be on the lookout for is "Full HD" that's the new marketingspeak for 1080p.

As djfusion mentioned most HD plasmas are 1366x768. Higher than 720p, but less than 1080i/p. Also be on the lookout for cheap plasmas that are only EDTVs. No reason to drop $2000 on a 42" plasma just to find out that it's not HD.

[HOM]

Sorry to post again, but this is important:

The new copy protection scheme in both Blu Ray and HD-DVD will force players to down sample the signal to 960x540!

This is fucking nuts. The vast majority of HDTV in the US do not have HDMI. Hell, a lot of sets being sold now don't support HDMI. So, you dropped $5000 on a HDTV two years ago, you dropped $1000 on a Blu Ray player, and you dropped $40 on a movie, only to find out that all your money has been flushed down the crapper and your signal is slightly better than DVD and less quality than OTA HDTV!

This is why neither next gen DVD system is going to take off. The early adopters that have already invested in HDTV sets may or may not have HDMI (note: DVI and FW don't count). People will come over, notice that the new Blu Ray/HD-DVD look like shite, nobody is going to buy one.

This is game over.

[Luca]

Even some HDMI sets don't have the HDCP-compliance necessary to play back HD content. That's another component of this new HD-clusterfuck that needs to be mentioned. HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Copy Protection) is a system of using authorization keys located inside the monitor itself to determine whether you get to view content at full resolution or a lower resolution. I suppose it might be possible to add an HDCP module to a digital HD monitor, but I'm not sure. And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be possible for older HD monitors that don't have digital inputs to do anything.

I've said in the past that most copy protection schemes simply promote piracy. As long as that continues to be the case, I won't exactly feel bad about pirating movies and music, and whenever I hear the industry complain of failing sales, a smile will come to my face. But if I were an HD early adopter, I would be VERY ANGRY.

[alcimedes]

There's nothing like taking your word of mouth sales and kicking them in the balls.

Early adopters are always wanting to brag, that's the whole point of being an early adopter. Wait until they found out they're getting shit quality. That'll get some word of mouth going.

[SledgeHammer]

Reading that article makes me want to take the people who decide this shit and kick them in the head: "There, now you have an excuse for being stupid."

[dfiler]

My take after watching HDTV exclusively for a couple years now...

HDTV is a complete cluster-fuck. I love watching it but can't recommend it to most consumers yet. Everything is quite flakey and your average joe will have enough difficulty that it isn't worth it for them. (Not us )

The aspect ratio issue is enough to ruin the experience for most people. Much of the populace will simply never be able to figure out how and when to switch between different aspect ratios. For instance, I have a 4:3 set with 1080i input. It's impossible for me to watch a pillar boxed broadcast while filling the entire screen. And we're supposed to pay extra so that the image only fills the center of the screen with black bars on the top, bottom, left, and right? Granted, some sets have side-cropping capability.

Then there are the audio sync issues. You can bet that at least half of the time it'll look like you're watching a dubbed movie. The audio can get screwed up either the the national or local level.

And... there is the horribly sluggish speed of channel surfing. Very few if any of the HD tuners are capable of switching stations without a noticeable and annoying pause.

Heheh... and my personal favorite: HD production is still botched on a regular basis. Someone at the national or local level forgets to flip a switch and you’re stuck with a blank screen, or no audio, or only the left and right channels of a 5.1 broadcast. Even at major events like the superbowl, you can expect to be missing audio or video at some point during the broadcast.

1080i vs 720p? That’s one of the lesser concerns. More important is that your tuner can add/delete sub-channels and that it can change channels quickly. Also, it’s imperative that your tuner and display have every possible aspect ratio and signal format combination possible. Otherwise, you’ll be stuck like me, watching a postage stamp in the middle of your projector screen.

With all that said… can you believe I still love HD? It just isn’t “good enough” for most people yet.

EDIT: And I completely forgot to bitch about video connectors. I'm sticking with 1080i over component and would like to send out a personal F-you to the MPAA. I've got tens of thousands of dollars invested in electronics and they want me to dump it all in favor of HDMI? Why would I switch to a technology that is actually less capable? All kinds of copy limitations and it doesn't work as well on my 35 foot projector run. Screw them! (Yeah I'm pissed)

HD discs are headed in the same direction to. I'm not holding my breath. I bet they'll screw up blu-ray and HD-DVD just like the RIAA screwed up SACD and DVD-A. The next-gen DVD format might never happen. They'll spend so much time fighting for draconion control over the media you buy that we might just jump straight to online distribution. It happened in music... the next gen format never took off.

Media distributors are screwing consumers and themselves in the process. We'll look back at this time in history and marvel at how technology was held back by corporations trying to prop-up an unsustainable distribution model.

Disclaimer: I'm not typically a paranoid or anti-estabilishment type of guy. Media distribution is an exception. It really is this jacked up!

[Robo]

Yeah. I want an HDTV (projector!) and I want HD movies and games, but the whole HD mess is ridiculously convoluted. (I didn't say confusing - I "get it," even though I guarantee the average citizen won't) - but it's just, well, a mess.

There's three different "high definitions." There's two competing high definition disc formats. And then, after the transition has already started, the MPAA suddenly decides to introduce HDCP, which guarantees that basically all the current HDTV owners won't be able to watch their movies in HD. What?!

Never has a transition been so...botched.

I bet if the current draconion corporate paranoia was in place when color TV was introduced, we'd still be watching in black and white.

[LAmezq3984]

I know its not really on topic, but ESPN HD is 16x9. Sportscenter is in High definition, and when they show clips from the games, it they were in HD, they will show the HD clips. When they are using SD footage, the black bar areas are filled in the grey "ESPN HD" logo bars. they would not be able to do that without having information there to put it.

[Moogs]

Ugh. Just when I get hyped up because some sets I'm considering have HDMI, it sounds like even that may not solve the HD-DVD compatibility issues. Meantime, sounds like even the (over air only?) broadcasts are fucked. Is anyone using DirecTV HD? That's the package we'd be getting. I assume there's HD-HBO, ESPN, Discovery, NG, etc as a part of it since they're always advertising.

Anyway, what do you guys think of these? The first is newer but is getting stellar user reviews.

32" Bravia XBR LCD

Aquos 32D6U

The latter also gets good reviews and has been around longer, and is about $1000 cheaper. I guess XBR and Wega is the difference but not sure what that will mean when watching LotR DVDs (SD widescreen) or HD over Satellite.

[Ryan]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2&page=1&pp=30

I plan on adding HD to my DirecTV package as soon as we finish building the home theater (of course, we have to start building it first). The link above is very incomplete, at least for DirecTV. It doesn't look like it's been updated in a while, because I know NGC is available in high-def over DirecTV. It seems like they tell you during every single commercial break.

[JohnnyTheA]

Originally Posted by HOM Sorry to post again, but this is important: The new copy protection scheme in both Blu Ray and HD-DVD will force players to down sample the signal to 960x540!

So the 'early adopters' who bought the really really expensive and large plasmas and LCDs that didn't have HDCP are going to have to fork out MORE money to get to see true HD content?

I am not even going to consider buying HD media for a long time if ever. DVD is pretty good the way it is right now. I can upconvert to 720p and get a decent, though not as nice, picture AND its my F-ing disc that I can backup and stream to other PCs in my house (my interpretation of fair use here..). And the movies are CHEAP! Its costs more in admission to a theatre than it costs to BUY the DVD! Compared to Audio CDs, DVD are a really good deal... I think Hollywood is betting that everyone will want HD-media soon, so they are exhausting the market for SD...

BUT, I would like a Blue-Ray DVD Burner if one ever gets released. I don't know if any are coming soon, but you could backup 50 GB of data to one disk! Or you could rip "backup" 7 of your own DVDs to one disk, OR encode hundreds of TV shows in MP4 format...

[Ebby]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheA So the 'early adopters' who bought the really really expensive and large plasmas and LCDs that didn't have HDCP are going to have to fork out MORE money to get to see true HD content?

Don't forget those of us with the $5000 projectors.

I'll support any company or individual who builds a HDMI -> DVI/VGA/Component converter and decryption software. This is just absurd denying 3 perfectly acceptable forms of input for a political struggle. Grrrr! Makes me so mad!

[dfiler]

And it's not just the display. I've got expensive component video switches in my pre-amp. Plus, there's the expensive cabling and in-wall installation needed to get video all the way to my projector.

[Moogs]

This is sounding like a real pisser / reason to not even bother with HD-DVD stuff. Presumably SD-DVDs will continue to be sold for a long time. I'll just watch those on our HD sets.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by Moogs This is sounding like a real pisser / reason to not even bother with HD-DVD stuff. Presumably SD-DVDs will continue to be sold for a long time. I'll just watch those on our HD sets.

Hopefully. They still release some movies on VHS. I won't be buying a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD set for a looong time, or until I'm forced to. I figure someone will crack the encryption, if its anything like CSS was, and I'll be able to watch on any input I want. Does anyone know how much stronger this encryption is compared to CSS?

[dfiler]

I'm pretty sure that CSS wasn't cracked by brute force, at least not initially. In other words, the encryption strength had nothing to do with it's cracking.

However, we can rest assured that the new DRM will be cracked as well. Unless all players are networked, each player must have a key stored on it. Eventually, these can be extracted.

[HOM]

Originally Posted by dfiler I'm pretty sure that CSS wasn't cracked by brute force, at least not initially. In other words, the encryption strength had nothing to do with it's cracking. However, we can rest assured that the new DRM will be cracked as well. Unless all players are networked, each player must have a key stored on it. Eventually, these can be extracted.

Ahhh, but there is the rub. One of the unpublicized features of Blu Ray (don't know about HD-DVD) is that a new disc can brick a player if that player's DRM has been cracked. Now, this isn't if you have cracked the player, just that a similar model has been cracked somewhere. The dics can also contain new blacklists to prevent playback on different sets. So, if you buy a nice HDCP set, but a bug allows it to output unencrypted HD over firewire (like if you wanted to connect it to a PVR), the new version of SpiderMan 8 could disallow your set from playing back content. Not only that, it can be retroactive, so older titles that you have been able to play would no longer play because your set is no longer a compatible one.

All of this leads me to believe that eventually the balance of power will shift back to hardware providers and consumers. Right now the big push for HD set are coming, but the lack of content is holding back adoption. That's why set makers have taken it up the ass from content providers. However, once consumers realize what has happened, adoption is going to be held back by consumer demand. Hardware manufacturers are going to have the power to dictate to content providers.

It's not going to happen over night, as soon as the one year and two year comparisons between DVD adoption and next gen DVD adoption start appearing, content providers are going to realize they are fucked.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by HOM Ahhh, but there is the rub. One of the unpublicized features of Blu Ray (don't know about HD-DVD) is that a new disc can brick a player if that player's DRM has been cracked. Now, this isn't if you have cracked the player, just that a similar model has been cracked somewhere. The dics can also contain new blacklists to prevent playback on different sets. So, if you buy a nice HDCP set, but a bug allows it to output unencrypted HD over firewire (like if you wanted to connect it to a PVR), the new version of SpiderMan 8 could disallow your set from playing back content. Not only that, it can be retroactive, so older titles that you have been able to play would no longer play because your set is no longer a compatible one. All of this leads me to believe that eventually the balance of power will shift back to hardware providers and consumers. Right now the big push for HD set are coming, but the lack of content is holding back adoption. That's why set makers have taken it up the ass from content providers. However, once consumers realize what has happened, adoption is going to be held back by consumer demand. Hardware manufacturers are going to have the power to dictate to content providers. It's not going to happen over night, as soon as the one year and two year comparisons between DVD adoption and next gen DVD adoption start appearing, content providers are going to realize they are fucked.

I'd almost like to see Joe Sixpack's Blu-Ray collection suddenly stop working.

Never come between Americans and their television.

[dfiler]

Blacklisting players is already possible. Manufacturers liscense CSS keys and these keys must be listed on all encrypted DVDs.

The problem with this is that in order to blacklist cracked keys, all consumers with products based upon those keys would be screwed. They would no longer be able to play newly pressed DVDs, only ones produced prior to the blacklisting. The granularity of key reuse becomes quite important with this type of encryption strategy.

In my opinion, they've bungled the next-gen formats and technology so badly that the physical-media-distribution industry might flat out disappear.

We will likely never see a market for better-than-cd physical media for music distribution. The constraints placed on DVD-A and SACD were so bad that consumers simply weren't interested. Audiophiles tried out the formats and gave up. It just wasn't worth it. Now it seems that low-fidelity audio delivered over the internet will eventually mature into the new standard.

I see the same thing happening with video. I've invested thousands in a home theater and I don't plan on replacing it every few years just so that hollywood can restrict my use more and more. Component, VGA, DVI, Firewire, HDMI?

As the months pass, I am more and more convinced that neither blu-ray or HD-DVD will succeed. At first it was just me playing devils advocate with a healthy dose of historical perspective. Now I describe this gloomy scenario with a completely straight face.

Unfortunately, I don't think the same applies to the HD video interconnect fiasco. Although I can always hope. Maybe my component-output devices and cabling will be good for the next couple decades... or hollywood could force me to buy new stuff every few years. Nah...

Instead, I've bought a hackable network media player that will upscale DVDs and non-DRM'd media files. 1080i over component for absolutely everything.

This was perfectly ethical in my opinion. It also would seem to be legal as I haven't circumvented encryption technology. All i've done is remove a capacitor and inductor from an analog electrical circuit that I own. Hopefully that is still legal in this "land of the free"

[Moogs]

Hollywood has gone so frickin overboard with this DRM crap. They always use the example on 60 Minutes or whichever show they're selling their propaganda to: "See, right there on the internet, someone just distributed a copy of this movie before it's ever in theatres. Now whose going to go see it?"

Answer: nearly everyone who was originally planning on seeing it, dickhead! Joe Hacker geek with his broadband connection and DivX suite may be stealing your movies, but the other 98% of us aren't. And watching a cam-corder bootleg of a cinema screening is NOT the same quality as a store-bought DVD! Stealing movies is not as simple, quick or high quality as stealing a 3 minute mp3, so stop pretending like it is and get us a technology that is consumer-friendly, you stinge-wad media fucks!

[Moogs]

Also, if you look at this page, since both the LC26D6U and LC32DU share the same resolution, it should go without saying the smaller one will have the sharper picture, especially when watching SD-DVDs, right? More pixels spread across a smaller area, etc?