User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » Apple Products »

Month of Apple Bugs


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Month of Apple Bugs
Thread Tools
WrestleEwe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Utrecht NL
Send a message via Skype™ to WrestleEwe 
2006-12-20, 18:51

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/12...of_apple_bugs/

Apple has taken some action after the "month of kernel bugs", but I'm not sure they will react kindly to some bloke exposing vulnerabilities to the world...

I personally believe that an open-source model in the end improves security, so therefore I'm inclined to agree with mister Finisterre.

What do you think? Is it a good thing?
  quote
Brave Ulysses
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-12-20, 19:01

I think the guy is a dick in need of a life.
  quote
ShadowOfGed
Travels via TARDIS
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
 
2007-01-02, 22:05

Immediate public disclosure like this is extraordinarily irresponsible, and very childish. This guy just wants media attention, and he's going to get it. The term I saw elsewhere was "showboating."

From everything I've read, Apple is generally responsive to people who report security issues, so there's no reason this guy can't go through the normal channels to report issues and have them fixed. He just wants to create a stir.

Also, of the two bugs listed so far, one is a cross-platform QuickTime bug, and the other is a VLC bug. Note that VLC is (a) not an Apple-made application, and (b) also cross-platform. If it continues like this, I suspect we'll see this "showboater" grasping for straws (like VLC) frequently of the month. There's nothing newsworthy about third-party apps having vulnerabilities. I can write an app that has a hole, but that doesn't make it Apple's fault.

What an ass. LIke Brave Ulysses said, he should go rot in a hole. Apple's generally responsive, unlike other companies who like to sweep stuff under the rug for a while. Granted, they'll wait to roll a fix into the next software update (be it 10.4.9 or what-not), but they'll take care of it.


Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
MegaManXcalibur
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
 
2007-01-02, 23:03

I like the idea or bringing new bugs to the attentions of the public but I do have some issues with him not contacting Apple about them before hand. Personally I prefer the idea of letting a company know if there are bugs in their products and giving them a decent amount of time to fix them. Once they are fix or if they haven't fixed them in a decent amount of time (say several months) then they can be disclose in the hope it will light a fire under their butts.

But I said the same thing when the month of bugs was going do for Windows as well.
  quote
ShadowOfGed
Travels via TARDIS
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
 
2007-01-02, 23:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaManXcalibur View Post
I like the idea or bringing new bugs to the attentions of the public...
As do I, but only after either (a) the issue has been fixed or, (b) the developer, like Apple, has chosen not to fix it in a reasonable amount of time.

Disclosing vulnerabilities without the chance for a fix just degrades security; it gives potential attackers a known attack vector that will be open on all systems until Apple can release a patch. Also, blaming VLC vulnerabilities on Apple is silly. It just goes to show that this guy wants publicity more than anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaManXcalibur View Post
But I said the same thing when the month of bugs was going do for Windows as well.
As well you should! I'm all for fairness... this guy's just way out of line with respect to "standard procedure" and common courtesy among security researchers.


Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
JKitterman
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
 
2007-01-04, 12:00

I think it is great and a good way of showing the sad state of affairs in computer security currently. How long has the process of a security researcher finding a hole, reporting it, giving time to fix, and publicly posting hole been going on? It seems like the same problems over and over. How come there isn't a way to wipe the hard drive after use on a computer built into the OS after its 3-5 year life? Businesses and home user should have this.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2007-01-04, 12:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
I think it is great and a good way of showing the sad state of affairs in computer security currently.
And what sad state is that? The state in which there are practically no known major security problems with Mac OS X? Maybe it's good to show that Mac OS X is not rock solid, but this isn't the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
How long has the process of a security researcher finding a hole, reporting it, giving time to fix, and publicly posting hole been going on? It seems like the same problems over and over.
How the hell is a software developer supposed to fix a bug if he doesn't know it exists? There has been zero indication that these bugs have been reported to the appropriate channels. Did you read the FAQ from the guy that's doing this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://projects.info-pull.com/moab/
Are the issues being reported to the vendor before public disclosure?

Rarely, the point is releasing them without vendor notification. Although, sometimes we may decide to pass an issue through the appropriate people.
Month of Apple Bugs is fucked up beyond all words. This would be just as wrong if it were aimed at Microsoft or any other developer. No responsible person with a grain of integrity would just publicly announce security holes and exploits. This is Internet whoring at its lowest.

MOAB:


Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
How come there isn't a way to wipe the hard drive after use on a computer built into the OS after its 3-5 year life? Businesses and home user should have this.
What on earth are you talking about? Virtually all commercial operating systems from the past thirty years have included some functionality to wipe the hard drive. Or are you suggesting a computer should just arbitrarily erase itself after a few years like some sort of ticking time bomb? And what does that have to do with the Month of Apple Bugs?

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2007-01-04, 12:29

What Brad said, plus...

If the title of the site is Month of APPLE Bugs, and by day *TWO* they're resorting to third party *and cross-platform* bugs, that would indicate that:

1) Apple-generated bugs are pretty hard to find. ie, good and solid. Excellent.

2) They're just attention whores, knowing that if they slap 'Apple' on the blog, they'll get hits.

Highly irresponsible of them, attention whoring at its finest, and just plain immature grandstanding.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
  quote
PKIDelirium
Nobody bumps my lock
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Xenia, Ohio
 
2007-01-04, 12:49

Why the fuck is he posting exploit scripts with them?!
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2007-01-04, 12:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
Why the fuck is he posting exploit scripts with them?!
Because all he cares to do is stir up junk.

This is not about security. This is not in the user's interest. This is all about attention grabbing.
  quote
JKitterman
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
 
2007-01-04, 13:29

Brad, Is you computer security world so small to include only OS X? If disk wiping has been a part of commercial operating systems like you claim, why don't more people know about it? Where is it in Windows? I searched for Solaris and it took a lot of finding. Where is it in OS X? Internet whoring is like your post of the picture above that really servers no purpose to the topic at hand. Why even post that?
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2007-01-04, 13:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
Brad, Is you computer security world so small to include only OS X?
Has it occurred to you that "Month of Apple Bugs" might be so named as to specifically target Apple products, mainly OS X?

Quote:
If disk wiping has been a part of commercial operating systems like you claim, why don't more people know about it? Where is it in Windows? I searched for Solaris and it took a lot of finding. Where is it in OS X?
I don't know what you're talking about. Secure Erase perhaps?
  quote
JKitterman
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
 
2007-01-04, 13:44

So, when your done with your computer and are getting rid of it, you use Secure Erase on the whole hard drive? The "Month of Apple Bugs" this month and I had heard about a month of oracle bugs. It really doesn't matter what the target is, it's a month of security bugs.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2007-01-04, 13:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
Brad, Is you computer security world so small to include only OS X?
As chucker pointed out, this is the Month of Apple Bugs, focusing on Apple and its products. Questionable generalizations to relate with the whole computer software industry don't stand well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
If disk wiping has been a part of commercial operating systems like you claim, why don't more people know about it?
Ignorance? Laziness? In most cases, it doesn't take a lot of research to figure out how to erase a disk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
I searched for Solaris and it took a lot of finding
"newfs" or "mkfs"? I found explanations in mere seconds with my first search. Maybe I'm just lucky?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
Where is it in Windows?
fdisk has been around since the early DOS era and was included with Windows up through Windows Me. Windows XP includes a program called Disk Management. You can also erase drives and repartition from the Windows installation disc. This option has been available for as long as I can remember.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
Where is it in OS X?
Disk Utility. It's in your /Applications/Utilities folder as well as on the Mac OS X Install Disc and the Software Restore discs that are included with every Mac.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKitterman View Post
So, when your done with your computer and are getting rid of it, you use Secure Erase on the whole hard drive?
Sure, if you're paranoid. A simple reformat is fine for most cases. Though, I ask again: what does this have anything to do with the Month of Apple Bugs?

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
JKitterman
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
 
2007-01-04, 14:05

The reformat doesn't really get rid of the data. I was talking about securely wiping the entire disk of information so it wouldn't be easily recoverable. There are a number of utilities to recover data. I expanded the topic to computer security because of some of the previous post. Obviously, you just see Apple and that is where you stop.
  quote
Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2007-01-04, 14:33

*points to thread title*

You pulled the hard disk issue out of thin air, bub.

But just to engage in a bit of necrosadobestiality, Disk Utility offers what you want, very obviously and explicitly. The format/erase pane is on the left. When you follow the directions listed *right there* and click on "Security Options", you get the choices on the right.

Now, just for flips and giggles, assume the user hasn't the first clue how to do this. Go to Mac Help, under the Help menu in the Finder. Enter 'erase disk' in the search box. 2nd hit points you to Disk Utility to do this, and even has a link to open it for you.

Could. Not. Be. Simpler.

Now, what does this have to do with MOAB again?
Attached Images
File Type: png Picture 5.png (53.8 KB, 14 views)
File Type: png Picture 6.png (90.6 KB, 12 views)

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.

Last edited by Kickaha : 2007-01-04 at 14:43.
  quote
zippy
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Unknown
 
2007-01-04, 15:18

Windows doesn't have a good "secure" disk eraser. There are lots of stories out there about people getting private data off of old computers that have been sold, donated, etc.. I imagine that the vast majority of these were not even re-formatted, but even those that are still risk giving up data to people who really know what they are doing. I'm not sure what the *real* risk is. News articles tend to be too sensational/reactionary, leaving people with the impression that it's a bigger problem than I think it is.

I use a 3rd party utility called dBan which is pretty easy to find with a simple Google Search. But, it would be an easy thing for Microsoft to include in Windows - like what Kickaha detailed in OS X.

Do you know where children get all of their energy? - They suck it right out of their parents!
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2007-01-04, 15:49

Excerpt of article:

Quote:
Security researchers plan to release details of previously undisclosed Mac OS X or Apple application security bugs every day in January. The Month of Apple Bugs project is the brainchild of Kevin Finisterre and the folks behind November's Month of Kernel Bugs (MoKB) project.

The security researchers told the Washington Post that, as with Apple bugs featured during the MoKB project, Apple would receive no advanced notice of the forthcoming security problems. The security researchers hope to use the project to dispel the perception that Apple systems are free of the security bugs that have long plagued Windows users.

"OS X users still think their system is bulletproof, and some people are interested on making it look that way," LMH of the MoKB project told the Washington Post.
Perhaps Kevin Finisterre needs a taste of his own medicine.***

He seems perfectly - even *smugly* - happy to expose millions of 'others' to completely unnecessary security breaches. How would *he* like it if skilled hackers posted on the internet all the security flaws associated with his own personal financial accounts?

How would he like it if a map of his house were posted, along with times of the day when no one is home, and windows and doors pointed out where it would be easy to break in?

Oh, and all these revelations would be made *solely* in the interest of kindly helping Mr. Finisterre tighten security on his financial accounts and at his home.

Surely he'll be overwhelmed with gratitude at all the warmhearted assistance being offered him.



This guy seems bitter and jealous wrt the security Apple users have enjoyed. His act seems vengeful, destructive, and potentially criminally liable.

As an analogy, let's imagine that a group of Californians become bitter because their homes have either burned in Santa Ana wildfires, slid into the ocean on mudslides (after torrential rains) from being built on precarious hillside land too close to the sea, or become damaged from tremors because they were built on earthquake fault lines.

They bitterly notice the safety of homes far away from these perils, and jealously decide that it's not fair that these other homeowners live in security because of the wise decisions they made.

So the bitter Californians seek to ruin the security and safety of these other homes in whatever way they can.

To me, that seems pretty much the same as:

Quote:
...hope to use the project to dispel the perception that Apple systems are free of the security bugs that have long plagued Windows users.
He wants to drag others down to level of misery that he has suffered under for years. What a self-righteous pompous scumbag!

If significant problems result for people as a result of his actions, they should band together and file charges against Kevin Finisterre and his loathesome project. He really, really deserves some concrete consequences for his criminally irresponsible deeds.


***Disclaimer:

These (above top) are NOT *real* suggestions wrt Finisterre's accounts and house. Rather, they are a sarcastic attempt to show how offensive and harmful the irresponsible publication of security flaws can be. I do NOT advocate breaching *anyone's* security in any way. (Just wanted to make that PERFECTLY CLEAR.)
  quote
Wyatt
On twitter: @bwyatt
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Near Indianapolis
 
2007-01-04, 15:54

Damn, I hope I never piss Carol off!
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2007-01-04, 15:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
Damn, I hope I never piss Carol off!


heh

  quote
murbot
Mammogram Tech
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
 
2007-01-04, 16:00

Actually Carol, you're pretty hot when you get like this.

**ROWR**
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
 
2007-01-04, 16:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot View Post
Actually Carol, you're pretty hot when you get like this.

**ROWR**
  quote
WrestleEwe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Utrecht NL
Send a message via Skype™ to WrestleEwe 
2007-01-05, 10:43

Although the MOAB may not be the correct way to deal with security issues. I believe it does raise some very valid questions about the current state of computer design/manufacturing.

I know that Apple has very high standards in its product QA, but a lot of other manufacturers do not.

Today, thanks to us consumers, Time To Market is so very important for a company to survive that quality standards are severely reduced. A lot of 1st gen products are simply not secure enough, or are so riddled with bugs, that they are in effect not useable until a fix or Rev. 2 is released.

For instance;

Apple released MAC OS 10.4 on 2005-04-29. the first security fix for it on 2005-05-03 and the first point-release on 2005-05-16.
That is a major release, security fix and a point release in 17 days.

My (KiSS) hardware dvd-player did not work correctly out of the box. I had to download a firmware upgrade and flash the player just to have what was advertised on the box. For a device that has a very limited feature list, that is ridiculous.

How long does Google keep it's services in Beta? Why?

Keeping in mind the very first sentence of this post, I believe that the general public should be made aware of these issues in whatever way possible. It is a very bad thing that most tech companies now only seem to release demo-products just because the public only buys (not wants, or needs) the product that is first to market.

We have to find a way so that consumers will demand products that are properly tested before they leave the factory.

--

re-reading this post I see that I've gone very OT here, but since I think it's a relevant and important issue, I'm going to post it anyway
  quote
Kickaha
Likes his boobies blue.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hell
 
2007-01-05, 11:02

Ewe raise some very valid points, the question is... how best to go about educating consumers to demand better?

Of course, then you have to *UN*educate them to demand *more*. You get more features, or you get better quality, but not both. Unfortunately, most consumers won't accept that tradeoff as valid, and want both, at the lowest price possible, preferably free.

My other brain is hung like a horse too.
#IRC isn't old school.
Old school is being able to say 'finger me' with a straight face.
  quote
ShadowOfGed
Travels via TARDIS
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
 
2007-01-05, 21:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrestleEwe View Post
We have to find a way so that consumers will demand products that are properly tested before they leave the factory.
Not to pick a bone, but I've now worked with two software testing teams for two big-name companies. Both of which are relevant to the products discussed here. Anyway... software testing is a prohibitively complicated task. To develop complete and comprehensive test coverage for every class and every module of every program released with something the size of OS X is unthinkable. It would delay products and raise prices far beyond what consumers would tolerate.



The cracked-up test scenarios I've seen that are relics from ancient bugs are... ridiculous. "Copy a 512MB file with exactly 500 characters in the name across AFP; ensure transfer completes." Even with 100% coverage through unit-testing, it's impossible to predict the random, uncanny corner-case scenarios that maybe two users will encounter when certain components interact in a very specific, very quirky way. Complete test coverage just isn't going to happen.



From a vendor standpoint, it's a matter of mixing time-to-market with quality and letting the consumer decide if your mix is the best of the available options. Right now, I think Mac OS X is doing pretty well, even though it's not perfect. Microsoft, on the other hand, has some serious time management problems, and it remains to be seen if Vista has serious quality issues. It's not yet in wide enough distribution/use to make a good call.

I see what you're saying, but there's a reason the market has never sustained a vendor who focused on absolute perfection. Some of us just try to get really close.


Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-05, 21:46

Does the software testing have to be done by a human? Can't a script do the testing and hang at failurewith a notification to the developer or something? Heck, program the script to do random things or pattern a normal usage with some random factors with a log of action taken, no?
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2007-01-05, 21:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrestleEwe View Post
How long does Google keep it's services in Beta?
Months. Perhaps indefinitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WrestleEwe View Post
Why?
Because it's the cool "Web 2.0" thing to do.

That and it's a lazy cover-your-ass way to not make any hard commitments.

"Why doesn't XYZ work?"
"It's in beta."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Can't a script do the testing and hang at failurewith a notification to the developer or something? Heck, program the script to do random things or pattern a normal usage with some random factors with a log of action taken, no?
Oh, heavens yes. Most big software firms (and any reputable small software firm) should be using automated testing (unit tests, integration tests, etc.) from top to bottom.

However, tests are only as intelligent as the person who writes the tests. They can test all sorts of use cases and extreme edge cases, but they can't prod something they don't know to check.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
ShadowOfGed
Travels via TARDIS
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
 
2007-01-05, 22:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
Does the software testing have to be done by a human? Can't a script do the testing and hang at failurewith a notification to the developer or something? Heck, program the script to do random things or pattern a normal usage with some random factors with a log of action taken, no?
What Brad said ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
Oh, heavens yes. Most big software firms (and any reputable small software firm) should be using automated testing (unit tests, integration tests, etc.) from top to bottom.

However, tests are only as intelligent as the person who writes the tests. They can test all sorts of use cases and extreme edge cases, but they can't prod something they don't know to check.
... is spot-on. Both places I've worked, we've had huge suites of automated tests. But, like Brad says, they can't prod for things they don't know to check. We have to keep the scripts up-to-date. Also, there are two kinds of testing, really. One is API testing, to make your routines are fairly bulletproof. That's easy enough to code through unit testing and scripts. The other is UI testing.



UI testing is a very challenging beast, and difficult to automate reliably in many situations. Either (a) your code has to expose information about the UI programatically, so a script can "parse" the UI, or (b) you need a UI testing suite that is intelligent enough to look at raw graphics data and "find" controls. Because even though your functions might be fairly bulletproof, sometimes only the right sequence of UI events will cause an error. Regressions can be checked using scripts (i.e. make sure an old UI bug doesn't appear again), but it's hard/impossible to program a UI testing script to exhaustively check all possible input events, combinations, and timings that might lead to problems (hangs, races, deadlocks, crashes, and so on).



That's why truly exhaustive testing is, and always will be, essentially an impossible feat. Part of that's because an exhaustive search of all UI events and timings would be a problem so big in size that no (super)computer in the world could conquer it in reasonable time. So to make use of the limited testing resources provided, we have to pick and choose our battles---that is, we run the tests deemed most important and most comprehensive.

Most of the time it works. Sometimes it doesn't.


Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter.
  quote
WrestleEwe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Utrecht NL
Send a message via Skype™ to WrestleEwe 
2007-01-07, 20:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
So to make use of the limited testing resources provided, we have to pick and choose our battles---that is, we run the tests deemed most important and most comprehensive.
I fully agree that currently most companies do not allot the budgets needed to really test their products. I also agree that it is impossible to get rid of all bugs before a product gets released.

My point, however, was that a lot of companies these days seem to reduce QA to the point where large and "easy to find" bugs are not found and fixed (or worse, are found and deemed not important enough. Mail.app hiding at startup comes to mind...).

Another example; the Nokia 5500 Sport with black keyboard has the problem that the rubber used to make the black keyboard changes size when exposed to temperature changes/high temperature. This means that almost every 5500 Sport released until now will have the keyboard come unglued and thus be unuseable. This occurs fairly quickly, 1 week of walking around outside and putting it in and taking it out of your pocket will trigger the problem.

This means that Nokia (once a company like Apple with very high QA standards) didn't even bother to test the model in a normal use / real world situation.
  quote
Enki
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
 
2007-01-07, 21:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed View Post
That's why truly exhaustive testing is, and always will be, essentially an impossible feat. Part of that's because an exhaustive search of all UI events and timings would be a problem so big in size that no (super)computer in the world could conquer it in reasonable time. So to make use of the limited testing resources provided, we have to pick and choose our battles---that is, we run the tests deemed most important and most comprehensive.
Well, correctness testing is just a special case of termination testing (a bug free path becomes a terminating path). Turing proved over 50 years ago that exhaustively proving a non-trivial program would terminate is impossible. It is a small jump to show that proving any non-trivial program is bug-free is also impossible. So if we have an impossibility against a test that guarantees a bug free program it becomes a game of good enough. IN OS X land, good enough seems to be pretty damn good. In Windows land, good enough is a nightmare.
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Apple introduces Boot Camp (Boot Windows XP on Mac)! MCQ Apple Products 400 2006-04-11 20:45
Help... What can I do?? macaddict23 General Discussion 10 2005-03-26 02:23
What is it with Apples Jules26 Apple Products 79 2005-01-18 04:33
iTunes & Pepsi again... Quagmire General Discussion 37 2004-07-31 03:56


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:57.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2019, AppleNova