[addison]

Originally Posted by PB PM A few car experts I've heard on the radio believe it isn't just the actual peddles and that it could be a firmware problem, from the computer manufacture.

Ah, the downsides of drive by wire.

[DMBand0026]

Originally Posted by Quagmire Small Block V8, the HF 3.6 DOHC V6( both the regular and DI versions), and now the 2.4 DI 4 banger( won Ward's 2010 best engine of the year award).

2 motors? I'm unimpressed.

My feelings on American cars should be well known, to you anyway. Honda builds the best motors, hands down. They're powerful enough (I don't need to go 0-60 in 2.8 seconds), they're ROCK solid, and fuel efficient.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by DMBand0026 2 motors? I'm unimpressed. My feelings on American cars should be well known, to you anyway. Honda builds the best motors, hands down. They're powerful enough (I don't need to go 0-60 in 2.8 seconds), they're ROCK solid, and fuel efficient.

Small Block V8 is one
3.6 V6 is two
2.4 DI 4 banger is three.

Looks like you need to go back to school to learn how to count Honda fanboy.

[DMBand0026]

Yawn. Just saying.

[Quagmire]

Oh boy...... Toyota is officially the new old GM. They knew about this issue back in 2004!

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/28/d...-back-in-2004/

[PB PM]

Spoken like a true GM fan boy.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by PB PM Spoken like a true GM fan boy.

What? I believe GM did a similar thing back in the day where they deemed it cheaper to deal with the lawsuits then to recall the defective part( was it the Corvair?).

Though instead of lawsuits, Toyota just tried to sweep it under the rug.

[turtle]

Thanks for the heads up guys. I guess I might want to see if my wife's van in in the recall then. I can tell you that I've never had an issue with it.

[Quagmire]

So sales results are out.

Malibu outsold Camry and Fusion

Equinox outsold RAV4. Only 1K behind Escape. But if you combine the Theta Twins with the Escape/Mariner, Theta twins win.

LaCrosse outsold ES

Camaro outsells Mustang again.

[kieran]

I wouldn't look too deep into that Camaro/Mustang thing. The new Mustang has been known to be on it's way for a while now.l Orders have definitely slowed down on the Stang as people wait for the awesome 2011 version. 312HP and 30 MPG in the V6? 412 HP and 25 MPG in the 5.0L V8? Yes please..

...as a matter of fact, I did order a 2011 Mustang GT. Should be here late spring. I can't wait.

[Quagmire]

Yeah, I know. It isn't a new Mustang as the new Mustang was a 2010 MY. In typical Ford fashion, the engines that should have been in a new vehicle at launch, is put in a year later.

The bigger news is Malibu and 'Nox outselling the Toyota counterparts.

Go Ford and GM.

[BuonRotto]

It helps that Toyota has halted sales of a bunch of their models until pedalgate is resolved.

[kieran]

Originally Posted by Quagmire Yeah, I know. It isn't a new Mustang as the new Mustang was a 2010 MY. In typical Ford fashion, the engines that should have been in a new vehicle at launch, is put in a year later. The bigger news is Malibu and 'Nox outselling the Toyota counterparts. Go Ford and GM.

Yeah, I know it's not "new" per se, but the new engines definitely had an impact. I'm surprised the 5.0 is even making 2011, as the development cycle had to be extremely cut down in order to make it.

I'm pleasantly surprised about the Malibu and Equinox. Didn't expect that.

The U.S. car companies are making a comeback it seems, but I'm all for any company that builds cars and supports jobs in the U.S.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Quagmire So sales results are out. Malibu outsold Camry and Fusion Equinox outsold RAV4. Only 1K behind Escape. But if you combine the Theta Twins with the Escape/Mariner, Theta twins win. LaCrosse outsold ES Camaro outsells Mustang again.

Well, Ford makes better cars, so nyah.

I wouldn't crow about the LaCrosse outselling the ES, as Lexus sells two other sedans in the ES's price class (the IS and the new HS) and another sedan in its size class (the GS) that surely steal some sales.

The LaCrosse might be "America's Lexus ES fighter," but the ES is becoming less and less relevant to Lexus.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman Well, Ford makes better cars, so nyah. I wouldn't crow about the LaCrosse outselling the ES, as Lexus sells two other sedans in the ES's price class (the IS and the new HS) and another sedan in its size class (the GS) that surely steal some sales. The LaCrosse might be "America's Lexus ES fighter," but the ES is becoming less and less relevant to Lexus.

GS? The 5 series competitor that only sold 529 units last month? The IS is RWD and goes against the 3 series. The HS is just an ugly POS trying to make luxury buyers increase their snob appeal( which is selling weirdly at 1247 units).

The ES and RX are still the golden vehicles at Lexus because Camry and Highlander buyers can feel safe in buying tarted up vehicles they loved as a Lexus.

LaCrosse: 4246

ES: 2923.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Quagmire GS? The 5 series competitor that only sold 529 units last month? The IS is RWD and goes against the 3 series. The HS is just an ugly POS trying to make luxury buyers increase their snob appeal( which is selling weirdly at 1247 units). The ES and RX are still the golden vehicles at Lexus because Camry and Highlander buyers can feel safe in buying tarted up vehicles they loved as a Lexus. LaCrosse: 4246 ES: 2923.

So...I'm right, is what you're saying?

ES + HS + GS = 4699, using your numbers. And that doesn't include the IS.

Buick seems to be yet another case of Detroit's aim being right, but the target moving. Having a "Lexus fighting" division (Buick) and an "Audi/BMW/M-B fighting" division (Cadillac) might make sense if Lexus wasn't also increasingly competitive with Audi/BMW/M-B. That leaves Buick...where, exactly?

It's classic Detroit hubris. They're targeting the stereotypical Asian luxury car of the last decade (millennium?), without realizing that it's Lexus and Cadillac that are gunning for the same market, not Lexus and Buick. Take the new SRX. That's GM's most direct RX competitor, not the Enclave.

Care to show me an "in-between" near-lux brand that's been viable, long-term? If it's any consolation, Ford is having a similar problem with Mercury, and Chrysler is having the same problem with...Chrysler. There just isn't room for a "$20k-30k" auto marque. Buick will find its niche, selling less expensive "luxury" cars to emerging markets and people who don't like Cadillac's bold styling, but it will be just that -- a niche. It will be viable only because of China and the Opel/Vauxhall connection, and knowing GM it will still have too much overlap with Cadillac because they won't be able to resist giving both marques competing models.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman So...I'm right, is what you're saying? ES + HS + GS = 4699, using your numbers. And that doesn't include the IS. Buick seems to be yet another case of Detroit's aim being right, but the target moving. Having a "Lexus fighting" division (Buick) and an "Audi/BMW/M-B fighting" division (Cadillac) might make sense if Lexus wasn't also increasingly competitive with Audi/BMW/M-B. That leaves Buick...where, exactly? It's classic Detroit hubris. They're targeting the stereotypical Asian luxury car of the last decade (millennium?), without realizing that it's Lexus and Cadillac that are gunning for the same market, not Lexus and Buick. Take the new SRX. That's GM's most direct RX competitor, not the Enclave. Care to show me an "in-between" near-lux brand that's been viable, long-term? If it's any consolation, Ford is having a similar problem with Mercury, and Chrysler is having the same problem with...Chrysler. There just isn't room for a "$20k-30k" auto marque. Buick will find its niche, selling less expensive "luxury" cars to emerging markets and people who don't like Cadillac's bold styling, but it will be just that -- a niche. It will be viable only because of China and the Opel/Vauxhall connection, and knowing GM it will still have too much overlap with Cadillac because they won't be able to resist giving both marques competing models.

Why are you combining the ES, HS, and GS? They are different vehicles. LaCrosse is aiming for the ES only.

VW is near-lux brands and are viable.

[kretara]

How many of the Malibu/Camry sales are rental? I'm seeing Malibu rentals everywhere. Taking the rental/fleet sales out of the equation (if it has not been done already) would give a much more accurate picture of 'real' sales.

Personally, I don't understand the Malibu. It is styled so generically and so 'look-alike' that IMHO it has no appeal or style. It looks WAY too much like a Camry/Accord from many angles. Not that the Camry or Accord have much style, but they at least stand out a small bit while the Malibu is invisible in its blandness.

Isn't a Lacrosse just a tarted up Malibu like the GM of old: caprice->roadmaster->fleetwood or delta 8(9)8->pontiac ???->lesabre? Or toyota->lexus, honda->acura or nissan->infiniti

Having been in a Lacrosse and a Malibu, they appear (other than some 'style' differences) to be the same car. Just wondering as I was not impressed with either.

[kretara]

Originally Posted by Quagmire VW is near-lux brands and are viable.

I don't know that I would agree that the Golf, Eos or Jetta are near-lux.

Audi...yes; VW no. Yes, I know they are the 'same'.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by kretara I don't know that I would agree that the Golf, Eos or Jetta are near-lux. Audi...yes; VW no. Yes, I know they are the 'same'.

They are certainly more premium then Toyota, Chevy, Ford, etc. The Golf is $17K base price. The thing is the size of the Aveo in length. Jetta is ~$3K more expensive then Cobalt, Civic, etc. Passat costs $27K( same as Regal) as does the CC.

Near-lux on some models? Yes. Premium on all models? Yes. Either way VW is in between Chevy, Ford, etc and Cadillac, BMW, Lexus, etc.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Quagmire Why are you combining the ES, HS, and GS? They are different vehicles. LaCrosse is aiming for the ES only. VW is near-lux brands and are viable.

My point is that somebody looking for a $33-35k Lexus sedan has three to choose from. Someone looking for a midsize Lexus sedan has two to choose from. As Buick's only midsize sedan, and the only Buick at its price point, something would be seriously amiss if the LaCrosse *didn't* outsell the ES. Lexus has four vehicles competing with the LaCrosse, to various degrees. You can't just say that the LaCrosse "wins" because only ES sales "count."

You should be familiar with the argument, because it's the reason the F-150 is America's bestselling vehicle despite GM selling more trucks. They're just split between Chevy and GMC. Does Ford "win" there?

As for VW, their US operation is losing money and they are aiming to change that primarily by going downmarket and reducing prices. So no, "near lux" isn't working for them, either.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by kretara How many of the Malibu/Camry sales are rental? I'm seeing Malibu rentals everywhere. Taking the rental/fleet sales out of the equation (if it has not been done already) would give a much more accurate picture of 'real' sales. Personally, I don't understand the Malibu. It is styled so generically and so 'look-alike' that IMHO it has no appeal or style. It looks WAY too much like a Camry/Accord from many angles. Not that the Camry or Accord have much style, but they at least stand out a small bit while the Malibu is invisible in its blandness. Isn't a Lacrosse just a tarted up Malibu like the GM of old: caprice->roadmaster->fleetwood or delta 8(9)8->pontiac ???->lesabre? Or toyota->lexus, honda->acura or nissan->infiniti Having been in a Lacrosse and a Malibu, they appear (other than some 'style' differences) to be the same car. Just wondering as I was not impressed with either.

I see a lot of Camry's as rentals too. GM's total fleet sales were 29% this month which mind you isn't all rental sales( contractors, government, etc). Toyota didn't state how much of their sales were fleet in their Press Release.

All mid-size mainstream sedans are generically styled. The Fusion and Malibu IMHO are definitely up there as the best of the bunch( Camry/Accord being near the bottom ).

The LaCrosse rides on Epsilon II( as does the XTS and Regal) which the Malibu will eventually ride on. But, the current Malibu rides on Epsilon I which dates back to 2004 when the horribly bland/ugly Malibu debuted. They look nothing alike, IMHO.





vs

Originally Posted by Roboman My point is that somebody looking for a $33-35k Lexus sedan has three to choose from. Someone looking for a midsize Lexus sedan has two to choose from. As Buick's only midsize sedan, and the only Buick at its price point, something would be seriously amiss if the LaCrosse *didn't* outsell the ES. Lexus has four vehicles competing with the LaCrosse, to various degrees. You can't just say that the LaCrosse "wins" because only ES sales "count." You should be familiar with the argument, because it's the reason the F-150 is America's bestselling vehicle despite GM selling more trucks. They're just split between Chevy and GMC. Does Ford "win" there? As for VW, their US operation is losing money and they are aiming to change that primarily by going downmarket and reducing prices. So no, "near lux" isn't working for them, either.

The ES only counts because that is what GM is aiming for with that model. The GS is aimed for the 5 series, IS 3 series, etc. They may be priced similarly and they may be cross shopped, but they are meant for different buyers.

Yes, Ford wins. As Ford as a brand sells more F-150's then Silverado's. Now if Ford claimed they sold more trucks as a company, then GM would sue for fraud.

Also, I like this. Equinox has a 50% conquest rate.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...-rating-88600/

Also continuing on Throttlegate,

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...problem-88668/

This= Ford cruise control switch mess. How Toyota is handling it= old GM.

[Robo]

So if Lexus axed the ES, that would mean Buick would be the winner forever and ever? I guess I don't see the point in measuring a vehicle's success only against one of many competing vehicles, but whatever. The LaCrosse is selling, whoo, go GM.

I really, really hope the XTS isn't released in its current form -- or if it is, I hope it's badged as a Buick. (Lucerne replacement?) It's a new DTS. It's just not the sort of vehicle Cadillac should be making, especially not as their flagship. It makes me mad just thinking about it. Cadillac was kicking so much ass...

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman So if Lexus axed the ES, that would mean Buick would be the winner forever and ever? I guess I don't see the point in measuring a vehicle's success only against one of many competing vehicles, but whatever. The LaCrosse is selling, whoo, go GM. I really, really hope the XTS isn't released in its current form -- or if it is, I hope it's badged as a Buick. (Lucerne replacement?) It's a new DTS. It's just not the sort of vehicle Cadillac should be making, especially not as their flagship. It makes me mad just thinking about it. Cadillac was kicking so much ass...

Yes, the point is LaCrosse is selling and it is a good thing.

I agree. XTS and SRX are blasphemy for a Cadillac. I am hoping the XTS is just a stopgap. I also hope the beancounters don't go, " Hey the SRX is selling as a FWD model!!!!!" and prevent it from going to Alpha....... As the SRX is selling because GM fixed the two things that caused the 1st gen to fail, looks and interior.

[Robo]

I love the new SRX styling. It's a gorgeous SUV (second only to the 9-4X of course ).

The problem with the "XTS as stopgap" theory is that Cadillac needed an STS replacement yesterday. Introducing the XTS in 2012, even if it is a stopgap, just won't cut it.

It's not like they don't have a suitable RWD platform, or anything...I'm not normally a purist when it comes to this sort of thing but this is Cadillac's flagship, for crying out loud. It shouldn't be a subdued FWD barge.

[Robo]

Volvo sales are through the roof (up 42%) and that's with a new S60 right around the corner (the current model is oooold). Why is Ford selling them for a song, again?

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman I love the new SRX styling. It's a gorgeous SUV (second only to the 9-4X of course ). The problem with the "XTS as stopgap" theory is that Cadillac needed an STS replacement yesterday. Introducing the XTS in 2012, even if it is a stopgap, just won't cut it. It's not like they don't have a suitable RWD platform, or anything...I'm not normally a purist when it comes to this sort of thing but this is Cadillac's flagship, for crying out loud. It shouldn't be a subdued FWD barge.

AWD barge with your coveted XWD system.

And GM's financial situation most likely caused the death of the Zeta DT7. Although I will be the first to question that theory myself.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by Quagmire AWD barge with your coveted XWD system.

Touché. But you don't see Saab trying to launch a 7 Series fighter, do you?

Like I said, if GM wants to make a stretched LaCrosse, that's fine. But it just isn't a Cadillac. Certainly not a flagship, "standard of the world" Cadillac, which is what GM needs. If GM is going to have two luxury brands, they're going to need different identities, and the XTS just muddles things.

GM and Ford both have this weird hangup about making ancient cars for ancient people and being terrified to get rid of them. DTS, Lucerne, Grand Marquis, Town Car...geez. It's like the whole "near lux" thing. Plymouth, Olds, Mercury, Edsel...it hasn't ever worked, but that won't stop American automakers from trying again and again.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Roboman Touché. But you don't see Saab trying to launch a 7 Series fighter, do you? Like I said, if GM wants to make a stretched LaCrosse, that's fine. But it just isn't a Cadillac. Certainly not a flagship, "standard of the world" Cadillax, which is what GM needs.

I agree. XTS DT7 needed to be on Zeta.

Yes, there is the A8 which is AWD only, but they sell because of that AWD system. Audi=Quattro, not technology stuffed into every piece of the car 7 series and S-Class style which Cadillac needs to out do that.

More ThrottleGate info.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runawa...ory?id=9730328

Keep on "Moving Forward" unintentionally Toyota.

[turbulentfurball]

Just received a letter by recorded delivery:

Dear Customer, On a number of Fiat Grande Punto vehicles there is a possibility that the upper steering shaft joint securing bolt may not have been correctly installed. This may cause the joint to break with a consequent loss of steering control. … Yours Faithfully, Fiat UK

Yikes. Doesn't make feel all that confident about the 250 mile round trip I have to make tomorrow.