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Raising Minimum Wage ... why?


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Raising Minimum Wage ... why?
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Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 22:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
That's not always enough. Plain and simple. That works for some people, while other people bust their balls their entire lives and still get screwed.
thank you!

While hard work is good, and should always be encouraged. It by no means is the complete answer.

Sad, but true reality.
 
Moogs
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2007-01-10, 22:21

To answer the obvious question: [neither of them gives the impression they have] ever had to pay bills from month to month, neither of them understands that since time immemorial, a large percentage of the population never gets the chance to attend school (for a variety of legitimate reasons personal to each family), and that *yes* many families *must* earn their living from two minimum wages by both the father and the mother. And no, they can't survive indefinitely if the cost of goods and services is always increasing and their pay isn't. Get your head out. And NO, it isn't because they have a bunch of kids when they shouldn't. It's hard to making a living for even two people, off of two people's minimum wage... just to live in a decent apartment somewhere reasonably safe. Let alone with a kid. It's a hard life so don't bust congress' balls for finally doing something right and trying to help out a little!

The answer isn't keeping minimum wage low, numbskulls, it's making all the God-damned executives accountable for their ridiculously out of proportion salaries, signing bonuses and retirement bonuses. That's how you keep from letting people go. As for small businesses this isn't going to make or break any business that was going to be a success to begin with. It might delay the hiring of employees or perhaps cut their hours back a little, but this isn't going to sink any business with strong fundamentals and a good product. It just won't so don't say it will.

But back to normal and large sized businesses... if you knew anything, you'd know the problem is not with the guys making minimum wage, it's with the guys making *maximum wage*, a great many of whom do little more than call people to useless meetings and shuffle people around to cut company costs, so "shareholder value" increases. Euphamism for "we're going to fuck everyone who doesn't have an MBA or a corner office" in order to cut costs, because we sure as hell will never force ourselves to take a reasonable wage for the amount of work we do. Nor will we ever take a hard look at our product and service offerings and say 'hmm, maybe these are the reasons we're not making more money.'"

The initial comments in this thread are the comments of someone who has very little understanding of economics or modern business practices, or how the average person out there scrapes by making their living. Not everyone gets that chance to go to college, and through no fault of their own often times. Deal with it. Even at $2.10 more, it's *still* low.

Do you know what $2.10 an hour is for these people? It's $80 a week, before taxes, before bills, before SS. IOW, it's nothing. Most people who try to live within their means will never see the money; it will go straight to the bill collectors or the government. I suggest you *work* a minimum wage job or even one close to minimum wage and try to pay off the bills for a simple, small apartment, groceries, gas and electric (nevermind internet, satellite tv etc). And good luck!

...into the light of a dark black night.

Last edited by Moogs : 2007-01-10 at 23:57.
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Others may not be so lucky.
Luck= When Preparation meets opportunity
 
Windowsrookie
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2007-01-10, 22:23

Lets try not to get this thread locked, m'kay?
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Luck= When Preparation meets opportunity
We're not talking about fortune cookies here. We're talking about reality. Preparation doesn't mean shit if you don't get opportunities. Opportunities flat out do not happen for everyone. Just because they happened for someone you know, or even for you, doesn't make it true for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windowsrookie
Lets try not to get this thread locked, m'kay?
I'm pretty sure it's doomed, Mitch. It's political. People are pissed. This one's going down, I'm afraid.

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billybobsky
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2007-01-10, 22:23

Fact: As long as businesses are breaking even, every bit of money they spend on wages of American employees stimulates the economy...
 
torifile
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2007-01-10, 22:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schnauzer View Post
Luck= When Preparation meets opportunity
It's funny that democrats get called idealistic when republicans are obviously the ones that live in a dream world.
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
It's funny that democrats get called idealistic when republicans obviously the ones that live in a dream world.
 
Dorian Gray
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2007-01-10, 22:26

Fooboy, you're turning into a bit of a caricature! Thoughtless slogans in your signature and rants against a rise in the minimum wage to a level that's still far below much of the developed world. Hmm...

You should read this article. UK-based but the same situation.

You should also wake up the reality of the ever-decreasing social mobility in the US and ever-increasing gap between the incomes of the rich and the poor. Even if you don't give a shit about the poor and their worsening plight, if current trends continue unabated you will eventually have to lock yourself into your house to protect yourself from the violent uprisings of society's disadvantaged and the crime-waves caused by deep resentment towards those who perpetrate such social injustices.

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
So lets create a system where no one, no matter how unskilled, can fail. And better yet, lets let the government, not the market, set the bar.

Who's going with me!

Ahh yes, lets all fail together
 
Stone Of Love
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2007-01-10, 22:29

Solid points made by Moogs.

I'm outta this one. I am borderline speachless reading some of the thoughts tossed out in this thread.

To those who have expressed distaste for the increase in the minimum wage, let me know what you think when your company pulls out and leaves you with no options other than a min wage job.

Different Strokes, for Different Folks.
And So On and So On, and Skoobie Doobie Doobie.
 
Dorian Gray
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2007-01-10, 22:29

Schnauzer, you seem to be forgetting that the Chicago School has long been discredited.
 
airedale
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2007-01-10, 22:33

Seem like the poor are always getting breaks and the rich who have worked their asses off get screwed. If we were to maybe let the poor realize that we will not support their lazy asses anymore, just maybe a difference in attitude will change in them. Maybe they will go and get an education and as far as garbage jobs. WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!
 
torifile
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2007-01-10, 22:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Gray View Post
Schnauzer, you seem to be forgetting that the Chicago School has long been discredited.
And you seem to think that Schnauzer's actually thought about this issue any more than what he heard on Fox News or Rush.
 
torifile
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2007-01-10, 22:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by airedale View Post
Seem like the poor are always getting breaks and the rich who have worked their asses off get screwed. If we were to maybe let the poor realize that we will not support their lazy asses anymore, just maybe a difference in attitude will change in them. Maybe they will go and get an education and as far as garbage jobs. WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!
Yeah. That's it.
 
Fooboy
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2007-01-10, 22:36

I don't know why people have put words in my mouth and made the assumption I am flippant about the problem of poverty. This is simply untrue - my whole point is raising minimum wage will not fix the problem. All it does is shift the entire curve. What is so hard to understand about this... this increase in the cost of doing business with be passed on to the consumer - rich and poor alike. nothing will change except some companies will have to drop a few people and make a few more work extra to cover a government commaned increase in operating costs.
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by airedale View Post
Seem like the poor are always getting breaks and the rich who have worked their asses off get screwed. If we were to maybe let the poor realize that we will not support their lazy asses anymore, just maybe a difference in attitude will change in them. Maybe they will go and get an education and as far as garbage jobs. WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!
I sincerely hope that was supposed to be funny. It wasn't funny. I just hope it was supposed to be.
 
billybobsky
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2007-01-10, 22:37

We are only as strong as our weakest link.

We provide health care to indigent populations, we provide education for indigent populations. Why? Economically, it is ridiculous, they don't pay, why should they be able to? This is an emotional response. Rationally, providing REAL economic opportunities to everyone keeps the economy developing. Providing health care to indigent people decreases the spread of diseases that may be opportunistic infections due to poor nutrition, shelter or otherwise...

Rationally, our economy grows faster if people have money to spend on goods... on education...

Suggesting that you are somehow superior because as a middle class individual (how are you defining that, were both your parent's educated, was the household income <100,000?) you were able to complete college is ridiculous.
 
spikeh
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2007-01-10, 22:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by airedale View Post
Seem like the poor are always getting breaks and the rich who have worked their asses off get screwed. If we were to maybe let the poor realize that we will not support their lazy asses anymore, just maybe a difference in attitude will change in them. Maybe they will go and get an education and as far as garbage jobs. WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
And you seem to think that Schnauzer's actually thought about this issue any more than what he heard on Fox News or Rush.
Oh make me into the brain washed one
 
torifile
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2007-01-10, 22:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
I don't know why people have put words in my mouth and made the assumption I am flippant about the problem of poverty. This is simply untrue - my whole point is raising minimum wage will not fix the problem. All it does is shift the entire curve. What is so hard to understand about this... this increase in the cost of doing business with be passed on to the consumer - rich and poor alike. nothing will change except some companies will have to drop a few people and make a few more work extra to cover a government commaned increase in operating costs.
And you think that consumers will just bend over and take a price hike? Haha. Sorry, dude, it's not that simple. I see a pay cut for executives first. That would more than offset a minimum wage increase. The former CEO of Home Depot got a $200 million severance package. $200 million. That's insane. Distribute that among the lowest paid employees and there'd be money left over for price CUTS.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
And you think that consumers will just bend over and take a price hike? Haha. Sorry, dude, it's not that simple. I see a pay cut for executives first. That would more than offset a minimum wage increase. The former CEO of Home Depot got a $200 million severance package. $200 million. That's insane. Distribute that among the lowest paid employees and there'd be money left over for price CUTS.
And that was $200 million to GO AWAY. That wasn't even $200 million for doing a good job. It was $200 million for sucking. Minimum wage is NOT the problem.

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chucker
 
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2007-01-10, 22:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by airedale View Post
Seem like the poor are always getting breaks and the rich who have worked their asses off get screwed. If we were to maybe let the poor realize that we will not support their lazy asses anymore, just maybe a difference in attitude will change in them. Maybe they will go and get an education and as far as garbage jobs. WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!
What
in
the
fucking
shit
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by airedale View Post
WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!

yeah that didn't help
 
Ryan
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2007-01-10, 22:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by airedale View Post
Seem like the poor are always getting breaks and the rich who have worked their asses off get screwed. If we were to maybe let the poor realize that we will not support their lazy asses anymore, just maybe a difference in attitude will change in them. Maybe they will go and get an education and as far as garbage jobs. WTF are criminals doing out of jail on teh streets. Maybe they can assist in this jobs?!
Assuming I've translated your "grammar" into proper English, two points:

1) What the hell do criminals have to do with this topic? I understand that they may be an indirect factor, perhaps, but still, it's irrelevant.

2) How is working forty to fifty hours a week and *still* just barely being able to pay off bills for the basic necessities lazy? And I'm not talking about cable television here, I mean electricity and heat.
 
Luca
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2007-01-10, 22:42

I can't believe how blind you are, Fooboy. How can you possibly argue what you are arguing? You say:

1. Minimum wage jobs aren't intended for people who have to fully support themselves with no help. They are meant for college students et al.
2. Therefore, a minimum wage job only needs to pay enough for the college student to pay for a portion of his or her expenses - tuition? Rent? Food? Books? Transportation?
3. Since clearly a minimum wage job is not enough to allow a college student to pay for all of these things, holding one requires the student to get help from his or her parents.

At $5.15 an hour, if you work 40 hours a week and never take a single week off, you will make about $10,712 a year. This is $893 a month. Many students have to pay a fourth or even half that much for books in a year (two semesters of college). And from experience, I lived on about that much money every month for a couple years, but I only paid for my cost of living (I'm lucky enough to have parents who can afford tuition), and it was a stretch. I found a place that cost around $350 a month to rent, plus utilities, and between that, food, books, and transportation, I found myself scraping the bottom every month.

But let's say I was really careful. Let's say I bought all my food from the supermarket and never cheated and ate at a restaurant, and let's say I bought all my books used off Amazon or eBay to keep those costs to a minimum. I'd still probably be spending $500 or so per month, leaving a little less than $400 for tuition. $400 a month. $4,800 a year. Not enough for college. Maybe enough for one semester, but not two.

With all this talk of "opportunities" and "busting one's balls," I expect someone to retort that 40 hours a week isn't that much these days. But obviously, that's wrong because it IS a lot if you're in college and working your ass off there. The point is, in America you're supposed to be able to support yourself and move up the ladder - get a college degree, get a good job, and not have to worry so much about money later on. But it's not possible with outside assistance here.

Now let's raise that person's wage from $5.15 to $7.15. Now the yearly income is around $14,872, or about $1,239 per month. With roughly $4,000 more in the bank at the end of each year, that person ought to be able to pay for the cost of living AND a full college education. It would suck - that person would be living in a crappy house, eating crappy food, going hungry sometimes, draining his bank account every month, and leeching off his friends whenever he wants to hang out somewhere (that is, when he was able to do so, given that he will be working a full time job and attending college classes as well). And that's not to mention that he will be completely without health insurance unless he has it through his parents, but that's another issue.

Not everyone has the luxury of parents who can afford to send them to college. I know there's financial aid as well, but my point is that it's going to be hard as hell for someone who has nothing to get anywhere with a $7.15 an hour job. At $5.15 an hour, it's essentially impossible.

EDIT: Oh yeah, all these figures are before taxes. So it's even harder for these people to live, even at $7.15 an hour.
 
Wyatt
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2007-01-10, 22:52

Luca FTW. I'm looking forward to making use of the "ignore" feature after this thread wraps up.
 
hiltond
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2007-01-10, 22:54

I hope for some of your sakes you never have to find out why a living wage is important.

Bad things do happen to good people. A guy I know was educated at a well respected school and worked for a major telecommunications firm that used to be based here. Times changed. Technology changed. That company laid off many people at the same time as did other major telecos in the region. Shortly thereafter his wife died leaving him with two kids and a mortgage.

When you get older people don't want to hire you particularly in middle-management. This can be impacted by an absolute meltdown of a segment of a regional economy, leaving few if any jobs in your field. Chances are that out of the ones that manage to sneak past hiring freezes you are either under or over qualified for.

He didn't complain, he didn't go on public assistance, we worked three jobs. Some min wage. He soldiered on until the kids went off to school and then relocated to a better economy for him. Soldier on, like Rocky he did.

I can't imagine that as it is, never-mind trying to attain addition education or training on top of it.

You can't characterize all adult minimum wage earners as lazy, dumb, uneducated drains on society. It just isn't true. Some people get screwed.

There is an inflationary response to increasing the minimum wage when it is raised so sharply. I think the better question to ask is why was so much purchasing power of the minimum wage lost between the last increase and now. If the minimum wage had even attempted to index inflation such a sharp rise would not be needed. Further I don't believe it completely cancels out the wage gains of the lower income groups with wages representing a relatively small portion of corporate liabilities.

Being a small business owner has become finically disadvantageous in some respects but there are some demographic shifts in the coming years that will change the larger macroeconomic picture. Within 48 month it is likely that, failing a massive influx into the labor pool, will make it highly unlikely many people will be working for the new "higher" minimum wage. The demographic shifts from the fall out of WWII we deal with in the short term are the real drivers of inflation to be concerned with.
 
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2007-01-10, 22:54

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
I'm looking forward to making use of the "ignore" feature after this thread wraps up.


So true. I love the way folks on the net argue so vehemently about this sort of thing. I've never seen dialectics work on the 'net and I don't think this is going to be the first Stop responding to the endless, circular trolling.
 
Schnauzer
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2007-01-10, 22:54

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Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
Luca FTW. I'm looking forward to making use of the "ignore" feature after this thread wraps up.
Sadly you can't always hide from the truth
 
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