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Raising Minimum Wage ... why?


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Raising Minimum Wage ... why?
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Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2007-01-11, 01:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Another classic argument: "that'll export the jobs to south east Asia!"

No.

What will and does export them is greedy corporations trying to save yet more money.
Why is it greedy for a company to make the same decisions that you and I make every day? The only difference is they do it on a large scale ( save a similiar percentage on a very large quanitity of expensive goods ), compared to common man who does it at the grocery store or best buy. I don't think its fair to call them greedy.

Wouldn't you like to get paid more at your job?
 
chucker
 
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2007-01-11, 01:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
Many, many, many studies have shown ( including those taught from the university of wisconsin which has produced more fortune 500 ceos than any other school ) that raising the minimum wage does nothing except screw over everyone.
And just as many, if not more, have shown quite the opposite.

Oh, you say, I don't back that claim up? Neither did you.
 
chucker
 
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2007-01-11, 01:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
Why is it greedy for a company to make the same decisions that you and I make every day?
Because you and I make our decisions with a soul and a conscience. We have to live with our decisions. We can appreciate them, be indifferent about them, and regret them.

Companies typically don't have a soul, and certainly never a conscience.

And unlike you and I, companies are, laws aside, only under one single obligation: to maximize profits and revenues. You and I? We have the obligation to feed our families and to lead a life we can be proud of and tell our grandchildren about.

Completely different.

Quote:
Wouldn't you like to get paid more at your job?
I don't have one.
 
LudwigVan
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2007-01-11, 01:25

Curious about what percentage of the workforce makes minimum wage, I found this: Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2005 from the Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics. Just throwing it out there for anybody interested in some numbers.

"Virtually bursting with adequatulence."
 
Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2007-01-11, 01:25

Where to begin.. This is an excellent topic of debate!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Of Love View Post
Risking banishment....

I'll open with, there aren't enough jobs that pay well enough for people to support a family on, so they are forced to work jobs such as McD's. Most of these people have to work more than one of these jobs.

I will then add, that your argument has been made time and time again since the advent of the "minimum" wage, and it has never come true yet.

I'll finish with, your thought process on this issue is short sighted to say the least.
Source? that is simply not true. There are plenty of jobs, and plenty of businesses to be created. If you're smart and motivated YOU WILL MAKE MONEY. The problem is that people think casually submitting a few applications and drifting through college with a 3.0 is the definition of hard work. It's not people. If you give it everything you have got and bust your balls in everything that you do, you will live a prosperous life.

Your thought process is short sighted. What exactly does it change for those making minimum wage? The people getting minimum wage are the ones shopping at walmart to begin with. Walmart has razor thin margins, and when prices go up on labor, prices on product goes up. It doesn't help the poor and it sticks it to the middle and upper classes. Economics 101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windowsrookie View Post
You are an idiot. Not everyone can get good paying jobs. If everyone could make 900K a year everyone would be driving hummers and living in multi-million dollar houses.

Some people DO work at Mcdonald's and DO support a family by working there.

Then they should take out loans and get a college education. Don't give me that crap that there aren't enough jobs. Do you honestly think the beggers on the streets have no opportunity? Go to a public library! Books are free to check out. They also have free bathrooms with soap to get cleaned up. Take out a loan, buy some acceptable clothes from walmart, and go and get a job. These people are begging because they are too lazy too take any action to fix their problem. They're waiting for the government to fix it for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
Not everybody in a bad job is there because they don't deserve better. Some people just get screwed. That's the biggest problem with unemployment, IMO. It's largely random who gets the shaft and who gets a good job.

Government has to step in when people are being treated unfairly by employers. Before government stepped in, we had children working in factories getting their limbs chopped off. Before government stepped in, there was no minimum wage at all. People in shitty jobs would be paid almost nothing. Who's going to collect the garbage for $1.00 an hour?

Who's going to take care of the people crippled because of unsafe working conditions? The government has to do that, so why can't the government do something to improve those conditions?

Who's going to take care of the people that don't make enough money? The government does that, so why can't the government do something to raise incomes?

The government serves at the will of the people. The people are getting screwed. You can't live on $5.15 an hour. You can barely live on $7.25.
People that get crippled on job sites never work another day in the life and are generally living off the interest from their multimillion dollar settlemen sitting in their 3% interest bank account or 10% mutual funds. People get laid off because the people at the top of companies only see the bottom line ( and quite frankly why should they see anything else? They worked hard to get their and shouldn't have to sacrifice their quality of life for anyone elses ) and those people who aren't assets to the company are going to get laid off. If they give it everything they have got, they won't get laid off, or they will have another job lined up waiting for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
This is how I see it.

Minimum wage jobs are fundamentally no skill jobs. So either you are a young worker (16 year old), you are older and have made no attempt to better yourself or learn anything, or the highly unlikely 3rd option, that you have NO OPPORTUNITIES your whole life to better yourself. This country is teeming with individuals who didn't give up and worked their way up without college degrees or rich daddies. So, I believe the 3rd option is very small.

Anyways, like I said, all this will do is cuase small businesses to fire a couple people to meet their bottom line, and make many things more expensive to buy ... thus increasing the cost of living for everyone - including the minimum wage earner.

...

Basically it boils down to this. Minimum wage is the baseline of the economy. Being frank, you are easily replaceable. You are a commidity. Raising this wage just raises everything. If you want to be successful in this country you need skills that seperate you from the pack in some way. This is going to backfire.
You are a wise man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Of Love View Post
I have to ask Fooboy, how old are you?

Your "unlikely" third option is a F'n reality today. Do you have blinders on?
Take out loans, get a college degree, get a job, pay off loans. Problem solved. EVERYONE can get student loans. Also, anyone enrolled in a state-credited university can get a low-interest credit card. Then, they can buy decent clothes, and get a job while in school.

Excuses for the lazy. Lets put it this way, the people that are making the big bucks didn't get their by accident. They worked harder than everyone else and earned that position. A strong work ethic is the most important thing one can have in life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windowsrookie View Post
How can you say that? I work at a hockey rink and they pay some people minimum wage. I know a very nice ~40 year old women. She is white, went to college, drives, and has a husband and son. She was laid off from her "Real" job, and only worked at the rink for a few months. Several employees gave her hours, but I can imagine it was some tough times.

I'd like to see you get laid off and live off minimum wage fore a few months.
Why is she not out submitting applications and sending resumes to every company in sight than? Because she is lazy. Hell, she could get a job at Sears making 15 dollars an hour comission if she wanted to. Jobs are out there, people are just lazy and don't take the initiative. They'd rather bitch and get a quick fix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
Bingo. Opportunities don't just create themselves. Fooboy, do you have any idea how much a decent education costs? Do you realize that the government won't pay for that for you? If you're already poor, already have poor credit, and don't have any obvious exceptional skills, you're screwed. You can get into a college, yes, but that doesn't mean you can pay for it. No money = no education. No education = no new job. No new job = scraping by on minimum wage while people claim you're not trying hard enough.

Schnauzer and Fooboy: Have either of you ever had jobs? Have you ever had bills to pay? Have you ever had to pay rent or support a family? If you can answer "no" to all those questions, you basically have no business talking about this because you have no idea what the hell's going on. You're both severely disconnected from the real world, and it's painfully obvious to the rest of us who are living in it.
That's where you're wrong. People that don't make any money go to school for very, very cheap after grants. Tuition is around 3000 a semester for most state schools. That equates to 24,000 debt at 8%. Every student in a state-credited univeristy has the option to get a low-interest credit card. It is a federally enforced policy. They can then get a job even at minimum wage, and pay off a good amount of their tuition, and if they work hard and graduate with a 4.0, someone will offer them a 30-40k job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
Except there is evidence for his argument.

Prices rise whether wages do or not. When prices increase and wages are static, the overall standard of living goes down (assuming both measures are taken per-capita, and not as a national sum).

Unemployment is dependent on so many factors other than wages that wages do not influence unemployment as directly as you suggest. The largest determinant of unemployment is merely supply and demand. As living standards decrease, demand decreases or slows across the board for every single consumer good.
Prices rise regardless, I agree. But, prices will continue to rise more and more as the minimum wage goes up. Hello 1.25$ menu at McDonalds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
Exactly.


I'm 24. I have an awesome Job and I have had a college education. My family was middle class. I was born in the USA. I consider myself very lucky I didn't have to start from nothing. However, I worked hard in school and I've had several jobs during high school and college - and now been working for 2 years.

Look, I am not saying wanting to fix poverty is not a noble cause, but just saying "EVERYBODY GETS MORE MONEY - WHOOPEE!!!" isn't going to fix it.

And yes, I think in America there is ample opportunity for people who go for it. Everything I was blessed with was on account of my dad busting his balls his whole life.
You are going straight to the top. Good attitude!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fcgriz View Post
That's not always enough. Plain and simple. That works for some people, while other people bust their balls their entire lives and still get screwed.
No they don't. If they are getting screwed then they are dumb. Anyone can get a degree, and any person that wants to has a guaranteed job doing scientific research if they get very good grades in college. They can go do that and work hard and have a guaranteed job. You guys are ignorant!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
If you work 40 hours a week, you should be able to support your family, pay for your health insurance and buy your school supplies. I don't care if that means my happy meal costs a $1 more. I can afford it.

I hate money grubbing. If some people can't afford to buy a flat screen t.v. because some things are more expensive, but more people can afford to go to the doctor, I'm all for it.
Not necessarily. People that work jobs designed for 5-20 hours a week wages for a high schooler don't deserve to be paid tons of money. They should make enough to support a family and that is it. The kids can pay for their own college, etc. It is possible to raise a family on 25k. If they aren't getting that in 40 hours, then they should work harder and work 60. It's called doing what it takes to get by.
 
Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2007-01-11, 01:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Because you and I make our decisions with a soul and a conscience. We have to live with our decisions. We can appreciate them, be indifferent about them, and regret them.

Companies typically don't have a soul, and certainly never a conscience.

And unlike you and I, companies are, laws aside, only under one single obligation: to maximize profits and revenues. You and I? We have the obligation to feed our families and to lead a life we can be proud of and tell our grandchildren about.

Completely different.
I disagree, because companies do not want to have a lot of turnover and they want to keep their good employees and give them more responibility as they do good work. Turning over employees ( which will naturally occur if they do not give them fair wages and fair benefits ) is very costly to a company and it would be near impossible to grow. Believe it or not, I do believe that companies are out for their employees well-being too, because a company is only as good as its employees are. Often times people work really hard and don't make what they deserve, but companies make sure they make enough to get by and tend to stick pretty close to the average salary of other workers in that same position in neighboring companies.
 
LudwigVan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2007-01-11, 03:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
It is possible to raise a family on 25k.
I had a few questions on your response, but since it's late, I'll just ask you about this one. How would you break down the expenses from this 25K? And is that gross or net income?

"Virtually bursting with adequatulence."
 
Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2007-01-11, 06:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
WLP: I'm not sure I understand your question as you've phrased it. As someone said... "huh?"

But in general, the point of raising minimum wage every few years is to help lower income people keep up with the rising costs of basic goods and services that all people need. Groceries, electricity, insurance, etc etc.

(...)

... this is not a big problem economically guys. It just isn't. Small companies don't have that many employees to start with and certainly not all of them will be minimum wage anyway. I don't know any 20 person companies where 1 person owns the company and the other 19 are minimum wage workers, do you? The companies with dozens or hundreds of minimum wage workers, are by definition fairly large companies IMO and more than have the bank to cover it....
QFT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
Well my point is still a good one.

OH - you know why everything is being made in china now too - labor costs. So lets jack up minimum wage and send all manufacturing plants to other countries.
Since I believe you are being sarcastic here, I get the impression that you want the US to compete with China on labor costs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
You want to talk about China? I'll tell you about China. Here, there is pretty much a 100% free market. It's a complete 180 from decades ago under Communist rule. Yes, the party is still called the Communist Party, but China is much more capitalist than America, and I can tell you with certainty that you do NOT want things in America to be like they are in China.

To those of you arguing for more movement towards a free market economy free of government oversight and regulations, maybe you should come here for a little while and see how people live. Almost no one can go to college. The vast majority of people have pretty shitty lives. The overall quality of life has definitely improved since the Communist days, but that's not saying much. I see shop owners who have dirty little cots in the back of their unheated stores. How about that? Small business owners living in their own shops, without heat. Imagine what it's like for people who are lower down on the chain?

Do you really want America to become like that? Because I'm pretty sure guaranteeing a decent wage for everyone would prevent that. You definitely can't leave that up to the big companies - as others have mentioned, small businesses usually pay more than minimum wage anyway, so they won't really be affected, and large businesses (the ones that can afford to pay their executives several hundred million dollars a year) have enough money to soak up the added costs. They won't want to, so they'll probably raise prices anyway because they're greedy like that, but do you really want to leave wage decisions up to the people who demand $200 million severance packages?
I also seem to be hearing more and more about social unrest in various parts of China these days. Social inequality isn't good for stability and instability is bad for business. If it wasn't for the iron fist of the communist party, I guess Chinas impressive growth rates would have been a lot more volatile.

.....

Now about you argument that the prices would match the rise in minimum wages fooboy:

Imagine a basket of goods from you small "mom and pop" store where they actually have a couple of minimum wagers working. Not all the value represented in that basket is made up from domestic minimum wages, there are also raw materials, fixed costs (rent etc.), gas for transporting the goods to the store and not to mention imported goods e.g.. from China. If the minimum wage goes up only a part of the value in that basket is going to become more expensive, the rest will not be affected. However, the guy who just got his minimum wage raised, will have all that increase to spend (except taxed and if he has debt and such to pay off), therefore the raise in minimum wages will not be matched by rising prises due to rising costs.

This means that what you fear is not even theoretically possible.

That the prices in the real world are rising is not due to the spending power of the minimum wagers, but all the other guys making a lot more then the minimum wages. The cost of their salary is also represented in the basket, including that CEO with the 200 m$ severance. The rising gas price and other cost-factors also have a lot of influence on the basket here. Which means that Moogs is absolutely right when he states that the minimum wage is playing catch-up with the rising prices, and not the other way around.

Interesting topic btw.
 
spotcatbug
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Join Date: May 2004
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2007-01-11, 08:27

I enjoyed reading this thread. I don't really have anything interesting to add but I will say that there are some very intelligent people in this forum (on both sides of this argument - yes!).

Anyway, slightly off-topic... The only thing I just had to comment on is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tensdanny38 View Post
Walmart has razor thin margins
A lot of people believe this is true, but it turns out it's not. Wal-Mart's marketing has been absolutely stellar in this regard. Customers believe that Wal-Mart sells at a lower price (cutting it's margins to razor thin) and they make up the difference in volume. Actually, they make the manufacturers eat the difference to get the lower prices, just for the privilege of selling in a Wal-Mart store. And the biggest surprise for most people, with respect to Wal-Mart's prices: you know those really cheap Chinese products they sell? Well, it turns out that those products aren't just really cheap, they're super-duper-uber cheap. Like that amazingly cheap, made in China toolkit that you just bought for only $15, probably only cost Wal-Mart like $2. Wal-Mart's margins on those cheap, Chinese products are huge.

I'm not trying to argue for or against min wage, though.

Ugh.
 
Fooboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-11, 08:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by LudwigVan View Post
Curious about what percentage of the workforce makes minimum wage, I found this: Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2005 from the Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics. Just throwing it out there for anybody interested in some numbers.
I checked this out ... on that website I found this chart, posted below. I am surprised that minimum wage workers make up only between 2 and 3% of ALL hourly waged employees, and according to the study, most of them tending to be young, and according to the chart - the majority being white women.

Quote:
Minimum wage workers tend to be young. About half of workers earning $5.15 or less were under age 25, and about one-fourth of workers earning at or below the minimum wage were age 16-19. Among employed teenagers, about 9 percent earned $5.15 or less. About 2 percent of workers age 25 and over earned the minimum wage or less. Among those age 65 and over, the proportion was about 3 percent. (See table 1 and table 7.)
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2005.htm

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2005tbls.htm#table1.f.1


Last edited by Fooboy : 2007-01-11 at 08:40.
 
torifile
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2007-01-11, 08:35

I have nothing to add but to say: Republicans are out of power. Democrats get to set the agenda and pass the bills. We'll see in the real world how giving everyone something close to a living wage affects inflation. No more theories or wild guesses.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
 
Fooboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-01-11, 08:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
I have nothing to add but to say: Republicans are out of power. Democrats get to set the agenda and pass the bills. We'll see in the real world how giving everyone something close to a living wage affects inflation. No more theories or wild guesses.
Come on, don't bail out after we slap a chart up.
 
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2007-01-11, 09:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooboy View Post
Come on, don't bail out after we slap a chart up.
Because charts don't lie, always present the complete picture, and can not be used to skew information.

The intellectual capacity for this thread has been breached. I can only suggest that certain folks take a rudimentary course or two (an actual one, not "I read the Wikipedia!") in economics and one in the sociology of the lower class so you can understand how people live (or struggle to) off of minimum wage.


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