[bearsclover]

Okay, my two cents:

A Mac has a personality. You give it a name. (My Macs always have the name "Ambrose.") PCs simply don't have that personality. I can't explain it any better than that.

The Mac community is awesome. I "switched" a few years ago and the reception I got when I first started asking questions was really impressive. Very friendly, very dedicated. Mac people are the "underdogs" and we've got to stick together. There's a common bond there. I guess that's true with a lot of things, but can you say that about Windows? Of course not. Not a slam against Windows users—it's just when you are in the majority you don't need to "stick together." You take your dominance for granted.

The Mac works really well. I use a PC too and I don't really dislike the PC (well, usually not), but there's something "special" about a Mac. If someone else doesn't get that, it's fine. But don't tell me that it's all about MHz and GHz and megabytes. It's much more than that.

The Mac works better for me. Even with the improvements in Windows XP, it's still more of a hassle. I'm very spoiled by the Mac—just plug it in and it usually works. With XP there's more of a rigamarole, more updates, blah blah blah. You all know the drill. As my old friend Billy said, "You hang long enough, you get used to hanging." That's true with some of the Windows problems. You get used to them. With Macs, you never get used to them, and they seem really irritating in comparison to the ease of use of a Mac.

I love the dedicated geekiness of the Mac community. I'm borderline geeky myself (I go through spurts), but I don't keep up with the news and gossip the same way that some people do. But I love it that people are this rabid and geeky. It warms my heart. It cracks me up. I love it. I don't mean that in a consecending way. I drink the Kool-Aid too. When the Mini was announced I was bouncing around the house and I quickly ordered one. I love the excitement and enthusiasm and unabashed love that I see in the Mac community. That's part of the fun—the magic.

And of course, we return to the fact that the Mac just works really well. None of this dedicated geekiness would make a lick of sense if it wasn't all about a superior (in our opinion) line of products.

[julesstoop]

Nice post. You are actually very close to describing what I feel and understand.

[kcmac]

Some good posts here. Most have hit on the quality of the software, etc.

Another sensibility Apple achieves is touch/feel.

Close your eyes. Pick up, an Apple laptop. Run your hands over the edges. Now do the same with any brand of PC. Even a blind man can tell the difference.

The iPod probably highlights this more than any piece of hardware Apple makes. They go to great lengths making every edge, every material extremely easy to touch. The iPod mini is probably the most solid design ever yet so seemingly soft and easy to touch.

One thing that has always amazed me as well is the perceived weight of the hardware. When you first pick up an iBook or a PowerBook it feels much heavier than its actual weight. I think it is because of the finish of the materials and the materials themselves. No cheap plastic with Apple. Again, solid

The other guys just don't get it and this will always kill them in the competition with the iPod.

[ryusoma]

Well, I'm not inclined to read all 23 PAGES of replies but I have some simple rebuttals to all the frothing Apple evangelism.

'It just works'

- very easy to say when you have a choice of ONE device or method to accomplish a task, instead of five.. ten.. thirty or more vendors for a component and each one of them with their own implementation.

'I don't need to reboot every time blah blah blah'.

- OK, look. Neither have any semi-intelligent or better Windows user since Windows 2000 Beta in 1999. :P

'My device autodetects crossover-cabling, it FEELS good in my hand, it tucks me into bed at night, it does this does that blah blah blah.'

- Yeah, and when your product has a margin greater than 5%, AND is a monopoly its easy to add an extra gadget here and there to coddle your customers. Guess what, if I feel like coughing up the cash I can buy those functions for my PC too.

---
Tell me how many officially-supported 802.11A products I can buy for a Mac?
How about Non-Apple MP3 players?
And don't even start on games, productivity software, business apps, etc.

Buying an Apple isn't about 'choice'. It's about giving up choice to have your hand held because Steve won't let you cross the street by yourself. Apple and their users have made a conscious choice to put form over function. And Apple users have a very hard time discerning between the two.

A pretty desktop that 'just works' with the exact same hardware in every box and the exact same software on every desktop IS NOT what I as a knowledgeable Windows user.. or I'm willing to bet many Linux users would define as 'function'.

Maybe you should ask the owners of Power Computing and Umax what they think about 'choice'. :P

Anyone who wants choice, options, configuration and customization buys into the commodity market, and that is the IBM-PC clone. With that number of choices, competition and rapid rate of change.. SURPRISE.. comes an element of uncertainty and incompatibility.

To use the automotive analogy several others enjoyed, it's not simply a matter of baldly stating one is a BMW and the other is a Chevrolet. Does the BMW dealer offer you a service shuttle? A loaner car? How about the Chevy dealer? Did he wash & wax your car last time you were in for service? HOw about performing a service recall without you even asking?

[Xaqtly]

Originally Posted by ryusoma - very easy to say when you have a choice of ONE device or method to accomplish a task, instead of five.. ten.. thirty or more vendors for a component and each one of them with their own implementation.

Not sure I understand you here. Are you referring to some imagined lack of peripherals or software on the Mac side? Or are you referring to the fact that it's much simpler to make Mac drivers simply because you don't have to account for hundreds of different kinds of hardware? I'd say either way, the advantage goes to the Mac.

Originally Posted by ryusoma - OK, look. Neither have any semi-intelligent Windows user since Windows 2000 Beta in 1999. :P

Are you kidding? You never have to reformat your drive in OS X for any reason other than repartitioning. You absolutely cannot say that for any Windows based PC. Most PC users I know reformat their HDs every 6 months because it improves performance.

Originally Posted by ryusoma - Yeah, and when your product has a margin greater than 5%, AND is a monopoly its easy to add an extra gadget here and there to coddle your customers. Guess what, if I feel like coughing up the cash I can buy those functions for my PC too.

Which would mean that PCs really aren't cheaper after all, are they? At least not if you plan on matching features. And even when you do buy them for your PC, they're 3rd party solutions, with more drivers - not a 1st party solution built in.

Originally Posted by ryusoma Tell me how many officially-supported 802.11A products I can buy for a Mac? How about Non-Apple MP3 players? And don't even start on games, productivity software, business apps, etc.

As many as you want, I suppose. I use a Linksys wireless router at home, myself. What, did you think it has to have an Apple label on it to work with a Mac? Maybe that's what you're missing here - Macs work with a lot of things, not just other Apple products. I could buy a Nomad or some other MP3 player and use it with my Mac, but I'm not interested in getting one.

And why not talk about games and other apps? Are you in the dark about which ones are and are not available for the Mac? Are you one of those guys that isn't even aware of the existance of Office for the Mac? Or that the Mac version is actually newer and better than the Windows version?

Originally Posted by ryusoma Buying an Apple isn't about 'choice'. It's about giving up choice to have your hand held because Steve won't let you cross the street by yourself.

Right, because we all know having industry standard AGP and PCI slots, ATA and SATA busses, RAM, Firewire, USB, audio, optical drives etc. means that you're giving up any chance of customizing your Mac. For example, I wouldn't be able to add a gig of RAM, 2 additional internal HDs, a Pioneer DVR-107, a Lite-On 52x burner and an ATi 9800 Pro card to my DP 1 Ghz G4 tower because Apple doesn't let you do that right?

Oh wait, I already did. Whoops! Sorry, I guess you don't have a point after all.

Originally Posted by ryusoma Anyone who wants choice, options, configuration and customization buys into the commodity market, and that is the IBM-PC clone. With that number of choices and rapid rate of change.. SURPRISE.. comes an element of uncertainty and incompatibility.

Right, because the choices and options I described above aren't available for any Macintosh. Oh wait, I did it again, didn't I? Whoops, wrong again. But yes, that element of uncertainity and incompatibility is there in force on the PC side. Just not on the Mac side.

[Luca]

Wow, ryusoma. Way to kick off your membership here. I'd say welcome to AppleNova, but... I don't welcome you here. You're being an ass. As is anyone else who makes generalizations based on something as mundane as software choice. Why do you make such a big deal out of it? Who cares, really, other than you?

Also, there are not 23 pages of replies. There are three pages - that's a "2" and a "3" next to each other.

[nomorewindows]

Originally Posted by ryusoma [b] 'I don't need to reboot every time blah blah blah'. - OK, look. Neither have any semi-intelligent or better Windows user since Windows 2000 Beta in 1999. :P [b]

Fuck that. I'm here because if I had $1 for every time I had to reboot my piece of shit Dell pc I could have the apple 20 inch G5, bluetooth. And no, there isn't a scar on my forehead, hidden by my bangs. I ain't stoopid. Somewhere, in the deep dark recesses of Microsoft is someone whose only funtion is to think of ways to aggravate the crap out of poor XP users, while keeping them in Microsoft's clutches. I just know it!!!!!!! :smokey:

[Luca]

My current uptime on my PC running Windows XP Pro is a little over seven days. I can see where ryusoma is coming from - a lot of the assertions that Mac users make about Windows machines are exaggerated, and it can be offensive. The problem with Windows PCs has more to do with their typical users. They have the potential to be just as reliable as Macs, but when you screw up, it punishes you more. And given that a huge number of Windows users are completely computer illiterate, you run into problems more.

[ryusoma]

Originally Posted by Xaqtly Not sure I understand you here. Are you referring to some imagined lack of peripherals or software on the Mac side? Or are you referring to the fact that it's much simpler to make Mac drivers simply because you don't have to account for hundreds of different kinds of hardware? I'd say either way, the advantage goes to the Mac. Right, because we all know having industry standard AGP and PCI slots, ATA and SATA busses, RAM, Firewire, USB, audio, optical drives etc. means that you're giving up any chance of customizing your Mac. For example, I wouldn't be able to add a gig of RAM, 2 additional internal HDs, a Pioneer DVR-107, a Lite-On 52x burner and an ATi 9800 Pro card to my DP 1 Ghz G4 tower because Apple doesn't let you do that right?

'Industry-standard'. You brandish that word as though it means your computer miraculously works with every device manufactured. How about a non-ATI video card? Can you name more than one other manufacturer? Guess what. EVERY PCI device, EVERY AGP device made will work with Windows. BAR NONE. If I pick up a 9-year old Cirrus Logic video card off someone's shelf it will work. The end.

Originally Posted by Xaqtly As many as you want, I suppose. I use a Linksys wireless router at home, myself. What, did you think it has to have an Apple label on it to work with a Mac? Maybe that's what you're missing here - Macs work with a lot of things, not just other Apple products. I could buy a Nomad or some other MP3 player and use it with my Mac, but I'm not interested in getting one. And why not talk about games and other apps? Are you in the dark about which ones are and are not available for the Mac? Are you one of those guys that isn't even aware of the existance of Office for the Mac? Or that the Mac version is actually newer and better than the Windows version?

I enjoy how Mac owners often display patronizing arrogance that Windows users know nothing about their products, yet will blindly gloss over answers to these questions themselves. FYI (last time I looked it up, about 4 months ago) the proper answer to 'how many official 802.11A products are available for Macintoshes?' was ZERO. 3rd-party unsupported drivers by OrangeMicro hardly count.

I don't much care to discuss the state of games , or most other software because it should be patently obvious to even the most simple and uninformed Macintosh owner that the selection of software - the CHOICES - in these categories is (put politely) limited. Maybe you can remind me how many PC game titles there are compared to Macintosh titles overall.. oh, and perhaps even for those that ARE available for both, how many besides Blizzard or iD titles actually release within 6 months of the PC version?

Oh, here's another good one. How about all those NON-Microsoft productivity apps and office suites? The weeping and gnashing of teeth when OOo finally officially dropped its planned Aqua support seems to tell me that at least SOME Macintosh owners aren't thrilled with your 'newer and better' Microsoft Office.. oh wait? You didn't want a choice there, did you?

Originally Posted by Xaqtly Are you kidding? You never have to reformat your drive in OS X for any reason other than repartitioning. You absolutely cannot say that for any Windows based PC. Most PC users I know reformat their HDs every 6 months because it improves performance.

This is a crock. I've personally helped Macintosh owners reformat their drives precisely for this reason. And any PC owner with some experience and intelligence or instruction can use the tools provided, or search out others that will make this unnecessary. I haven't reformatted a workstation disk of mine (except for outright hardware failures) in 4 YEARS because I have the tools and foresight to maintain it actively and dilligently.

Originally Posted by Xaqtly Which would mean that PCs really aren't cheaper after all, are they? At least not if you plan on matching features. And even when you do buy them for your PC, they're 3rd party solutions, with more drivers - not a 1st party solution built in.

Funny, I didn't bring up this question at all. Are you threatened by it? We could launch into a long-winded debate (of which you certainly haven't displayed knowledge) of the vagaries of market economics.

[ryusoma]

Originally Posted by Luca My current uptime on my PC running Windows XP Pro is a little over seven days. I can see where ryusoma is coming from - a lot of the assertions that Mac users make about Windows machines are exaggerated, and it can be offensive. The problem with Windows PCs has more to do with their typical users. They have the potential to be just as reliable as Macs, but when you screw up, it punishes you more. And given that a huge number of Windows users are completely computer illiterate, you run into problems more.

Thank you. Succinct and to the point. Macintosh users almost to a man labour under the same patently-false assumptions about Windows and Windows users that they held 4, 8, 12 years ago.

If you want an insulting user stereotype, try this one - at least even the most dimwitted Windows user can understand the concept of TWO mouse buttons.

[Wraven]

802.11a = teh suck

thus endeth the debate

[Luca]

Originally Posted by ryusoma Thank you. Succinct and to the point. Macintosh users almost to a man labour under the same patently-false assumptions about Windows and Windows users that they held 4, 8, 12 years ago. If you want an insulting user stereotype, try this one - at least even the most dimwitted Windows user can understand the concept of TWO mouse buttons.

Yeesh... somehow I agree with you, somewhat, yet I still don't like how you say things! Kinda. I don't know, it's weird because I try to walk the line. I advocate both platforms as having their own value, and I never try to generalize people based on what OS they use. Hell, a lot of people use both Mac OS and Windows.

So, as I said before, I can see where you're coming from. And I do agree that there are too many Mac users who cling to the same old stereotypes of Windows users. But then you seem to be doing the same thing in reverse. How can you assume that "almost all" Mac users believe the same misinformation that was hurled back and forth in Mac vs PC debates of years past? And don't even start with the whole mouse button debate.

[BarracksSi]

Originally Posted by ryusoma Well, I'm not inclined to read all 23 PAGES of replies but I have some simple rebuttals to all the frothing Apple evangelism. 'It just works'

Blah blah blah...

When it comes down to it, all you really want a computer to do is to WORK whenever you need it to work.

Before, I've quoted a member of a car-related forum that I frequent, and I think I'll quote him again:

Originally Posted by esmith13 on a similar note. I have clients that have both macs and pcs in their offices. When their service contract renewal came up this year - to save money they decided to drop support for the macs since they never seemed to break. Not that their wasn't issues - but just never anything the user couldn't handle themselves. Two years we were contracted to support them and only one mac claim versus over 300 pc work orders filed. This is only for problems that required us. If we looked at a system and it was as simple as clicking a button on the spot it didn't get a job ticket. Their setup was roughly 60/40 with pc's/mac's. Eric

And you wonder why Mac users have to feel like they're preaching? It's because the choice is so damn clear that we can't understand why anyone would willingly stay blind.

[mass_transit_prophet]

To reply to Ryusoma,

Mac users do not simply put form over function. We demand that form and function be integrated. While I can bust my butt and make my former PC look and sound nearly identical to a Mac (sound clips, Windows XP, Objectdock, and a OSX simulation skin with background, a new paint job and an Apple Cinema Display) the fact is I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO. Like well-written poetry, Apple products form is a derivative of the ease of function their software and operating system produce for the novice and professional user alike.

The number of products available is of no concern. You can have a million 802.11a products. Airport is all I need. Who the h-e-double hockey sticks even uses 802.11a anymore? Also, on the topic of graphics cards other than ATI, have you checked the GeForce 6800 in the top of the line PowerMac. I did not realize that was made by ATI. Wow. Nobody better tell NVIDIA. Don’t worry, the secret’s safe with me.

Describe to me again, how do IBM clones have a rapid rate of change? I switched from a hardcore power PC user/gamer to Apple almost two and a half years ago. (I am still a freelance PC tech…we are always in high demand). When I look at the industry now, what change am I supposed to be experiencing? Tablet PC’s? The Media Center PC? With the exception of faster processors and video cards (that the operating system and the applications/games can barely take advantage of) the PC industry has stagnated. It takes its cues from Apple computer, waits for its move and attempts to follow its example.

The PC industry does this badly. Jobs says it best when he says Apple is about innovation. Innovation is not about pandering to the lowest common denominator in the tech world (i.e. the frame rate addicted, spec whore, would-overclock-my-own-mother-for-better-performance PC gaming Addict). If we want better games, we will pickup an X-Box, Playstation 2, Game Cube, or do some vintage gaming. Why is this so? Because their respective companies shell out millions to do what they do well…my Apple is for getting work done. (P.S. Blizzard does simultaneous releases of games…look harder next time).

Every AGP & PCI device will work with Windows? Before or after constant driver updates, security updates, OS updates, etc. Do not even try to play that card. Some shiznit produced for Windows 3.1, 95, NT, and 98 simply do not work on XP due to absent or not updated drivers no matter how many times you google otherwise.

On the topic of XP uptime, I will admit PC’s have gotten better at stability over the years. I kept my XP pro system up for nearly two weeks at a time. However, that cannot come close to the uptime of my old iBook G3 700, which stayed up continuously for three months straight…only to have to be restarted by a OS update (then it stayed up for another month and a half). While the system stability stereotype is problematic, and perhaps overblown, it is an issue when compared to the stability of Mac systems I’ve worked with.

------
However, I feel you on the two button mouse.
<currently using a Logitech wireless mouse on an iBook G4 800>

[Luca]

Jeez, do we really have to get into some immature, lengthy Mac vs. PC debate now? It's 2005, people, not 1999. Settle down.

[BarracksSi]

Can I just say that I hate the automotive "Mac = BMW and Windows = Chevy" analogy?

BMW's, besides being expensive to start with, are historically more expensive to maintain than a LOT of other makes. We know that that's not the case with Macs.

Maybe "Mac = Honda and Windows = Chevy" will work better. What would Linux be? Maybe a custom-built car...

[Xaqtly]

Originally Posted by ryusoma Guess what. EVERY PCI device, EVERY AGP device made will work with Windows. BAR NONE.

Except the ones made for Macs. Ooh, didn't see that one coming, did ya? But you might find it fascinating that recently I needed a 100Mb PCI ethernet card for a Mac G4, so I opened up a nearby IBM 300PL, took the IBM branded Ethernet card out of it, popped it in the Mac and fired it up - and the Mac not only recognized the card, but it was on the network without me having to push a single button. I didn't even have to so much as open System Preferences. So you can see how your argument doesn't really hold any water with me, right?

Originally Posted by ryusoma the proper answer to 'how many official 802.11A products are available for Macintoshes?' was ZERO.

Allow me to quote:

Originally Posted by Wraven 802.11a = teh suck thus endeth the debate

Indeed. Now, what was your question again?

Originally Posted by ryusoma I don't much care to discuss the state of games , or most other software because it should be patently obvious to even the most simple and uninformed Macintosh owner that the selection of software - the CHOICES - in these categories is (put politely) limited.

Ah yes, the old quantity vs. quality argument. So you're saying that having 300 incredibly shitty word processors and maybe 4 good ones is better somehow than what the Mac has? i.e. at least 4 good ones? Oh yes, believe me - I'm in total envy of all that incredibly poor Windows software out there. What is it, like 97% of all Windows software that sucks ass? 98% maybe? 99%? How could I not want mountains of total crap to choose from? It's a hard life being a Mac user.

Originally Posted by ryusoma Maybe you can remind me how many PC game titles there are compared to Macintosh titles overall.. oh, and perhaps even for those that ARE available for both, how many besides Blizzard or iD titles actually release within 6 months of the PC version?

Yes, the PC zealot's last stand - games. It always comes down to games. Well you won't find me telling you Macs are better for gaming - they aren't. Most games are made for the PC and perform better on PCs. But there's a big difference between that and saying either "Macs can't do any gaming" or "There are no good games for Macs". There are lots and lots of good games for Macs, in fact a good chunk of all the most popular games are out for Macs. And obviously Macs can play the games, seeing as how you can get the two hottest video cards on the market for them (ATi X800 and nVidia 6800 Ultra).

Originally Posted by ryusoma How about all those NON-Microsoft productivity apps and office suites? The weeping and gnashing of teeth when OOo finally officially dropped its planned Aqua support seems to tell me that at least SOME Macintosh owners aren't thrilled with your 'newer and better' Microsoft Office.. oh wait? You didn't want a choice there, did you?

What weeping? Most Mac users I know use Office. And a bunch of them will probably switch to iWork. But you know there are more apps than just those, right?

Originally Posted by ryusoma This is a crock. I've personally helped Macintosh owners reformat their drives precisely for this reason. And any PC owner with some experience and intelligence or instruction can use the tools provided, or search out others that will make this unnecessary. I haven't reformatted a workstation disk of mine (except for outright hardware failures) in 4 YEARS because I have the tools and foresight to maintain it actively and dilligently.

How is it a crock when it happens all the time, every day? There's an entire generation of PC users out there who believe it's normal to reformat your HD every 6 months to keep your PC running well, thanks to Windows, spyware and viruses. You may not be one of them, but I guarantee you you're not in the majority. And here's something for you to think about - I haven't had to reformat any workstation disk of mine in at least 4 years either. The difference is I don't maintain them actively or diligently. I don't maintain them at all. I beat the living shit out of my drives, and I don't do any kind of maintenance on any of them whatsoever. Care to guess how many times I've had to reformat any of them?

Originally Posted by ryusoma Funny, I didn't bring up this question at all. Are you threatened by it?

Um... riiiight. You mentioned adding features onto your PC (in order to bring it up to the level of a Mac) and I told you that would cost extra money. Are you confused about that or something? Just wondering.

[Luca]

Xaqtly - you make some good points but could we please drop it? ryusoma posted that a while ago and it has already been responded to, ripped apart, and we've moved on.

[ryusoma]

My god. You people and your arrogance, your generalizing, your 10-year-old cliches. It never ends. I love how you can nitpick where some level of parity or equivalence is acknowledged or accepted and the next minute make sweeping cursory dismissals of entire realms software or hardware. Blizzard makes a SIMULTANEOUS RELEASE and DON'T YOU FORGET IT. 802.11a technology SUCKS noone wants to use it anyways. Noone WANTS more than 4 word processors or any other application for that matter.

Can Steve Jobs beat up Bill Gates? Inquiring nerds want to know!!

Originally Posted by Xaqtly ..industry standard AGP and PCI slots, ATA and SATA busses, RAM, Firewire, USB, audio, optical drives etc. means that you're giving up any chance of customizing your Mac. For example, I wouldn't be able to add a gig of RAM, 2 additional internal HDs, a Pioneer DVR-107, a Lite-On 52x burner and an ATi 9800 Pro card to my DP 1 Ghz G4 tower because Apple doesn't let you do that right? Ah yes, the old quantity vs. quality argument. So you're saying that having 300 incredibly shitty word processors and maybe 4 good ones is better somehow than what the Mac has? i.e. at least 4 good ones? Oh yes, believe me - I'm in total envy of all that incredibly poor Windows software out there. What is it, like 97% of all Windows software that sucks ass? 98% maybe? 99%? How could I not want mountains of total crap to choose from? It's a hard life being a Mac user. Yes, the PC zealot's last stand - games. It always comes down to games. Well you won't find me telling you Macs are better for gaming - they aren't. Most games are made for the PC and perform better on PCs. But there's a big difference between that and saying either "Macs can't do any gaming" or "There are no good games for Macs". There are lots and lots of good games for Macs, in fact a good chunk of all the most popular games are out for Macs. And obviously Macs can play the games, seeing as how you can get the two hottest video cards on the market for them (ATi X800 and nVidia 6800 Ultra).

.. good thing all the hottest games are made only by Blizzard and iD. Not say.. Valve, Sierra, EA, Ubisoft, Sega, Nintendo.. or Bungie.

It's easy to spout out names and standard connectors when you're a johnny-come-lately who's only had all these things for a couple or three years at best. It's telling that I as a PC user can remind you how many of those you can change and upgrade on your iToiletseats or G3 iMacs? The hard drive? How about how easy it is putting in additional memory even? And do I really have to to use the word 'Nubus' to put this statement down once and for all?

Originally Posted by Xaqtly What weeping? Most Mac users I know use Office. And a bunch of them will probably switch to iWork. But you know there are more apps than just those, right?

Again. Isn't it great how you can sweep a pointed example under the rug with the statement 'well NOONE NEEDS THAT'?

Originally Posted by Xaqtly How is it a crock when it happens all the time, every day? There's an entire generation of PC users out there who believe it's normal to reformat your HD every 6 months to keep your PC running well, thanks to Windows, spyware and viruses. You may not be one of them, but I guarantee you you're not in the majority. And here's something for you to think about - I haven't had to reformat any workstation disk of mine in at least 4 years either. The difference is I don't maintain them actively or diligently. I don't maintain them at all. I beat the living shit out of my drives, and I don't do any kind of maintenance on any of them whatsoever. Care to guess how many times I've had to reformat any of them?

Don't know, don't care how many times you've had to reformat. And these statements are again, patently false. I'd ask you to explain why there are even disk maintenance and defragmentation tools AVAILABLE for Macintoshes if this were true, but the things you've already said prove listening to another rabid post pointless.

Originally Posted by Xaqtly Um... riiiight. You mentioned adding features onto your PC (in order to bring it up to the level of a Mac) and I told you that would cost extra money. Are you confused about that or something? Just wondering.

No. Just that a modern, current, top-of-the-line PC costs 1/3 that of a current Mac to start with. And don't DARE compare a Mac-mini to a $500 or $700 clone/Dell/whatever workstation which will have a processor hot off the design boards at Intel or AMD, and will have a 100Gb+ hard drive, and will have a Radeon or GF4 video card. I know plenty of G4 desktop or iBook owners who've been griping for an upgrade 6 or more months already, so don't try and tell me that $499 box represents your state-of-the-art.

CHOICE IS CHOICE. Noone cares if you think a product 'sucks'. I think having only a white plastic shell to 'choose' (HA!) from sucks, that doesn't make it true. The FACT is that choice, option and competition makes for a better market and drive prices lower, whether you buy Apples, Oranges, Guns or Butter. I know many of you will immediately trot out tired old 'M$' or 'Windon't/WinDOZE' insults to cover your insecurities about this fact but fundamentally YOUR market relies on OUR market to exist.

Who do you think developed those 'industry standards'?
Who do you think drove the commodity pricing of all those components you gleefully cite so low?
Why do you think Microsoft makes most any innovation or concession to users and licensees now - what market segments are putting innovative pressure on them?

The answer to none of these questions is Apple!

But you can barely admit that since even Apple itself - while internalizing the core structure of UNIX, takes great pains to hide and obscure those fundamentals from OSX users by removing X11, by forcing different development environments and compilers - by making it difficult to utilize something that should fundamentally be cross-compatible with it!

As I suspect none of you are aware (or conveniently forgot to compare); long ago in a galaxy far far away IBM tried to wrest control of its design back from the other manufacturers in its industry and Microsoft by implementing the Microchannel interface and prohibitive licensing agreements. Thankfully, both the consumers and industry rejected this ploy and broke IBM's grip on the market.

As I alluded to in my first message (and of course all of you conveniently ignored), Apple used a similar tactic to drive out clone PowerPC manufacturers in changing its architecture. However in YOUR case, you stood meekly by and allowed it.. nay many of you EMBRACED your own castration as consumers thanks to the Steve Jobs cult of personality.

I will gladly take Bill Gates' ham-handed and often easily-circumvented control over Steve Jobs' obsessive-compulsive 'leadership' anyday. Despite all the excuses you can spout, despite all the hue and cry you can raise, the IBM-PC architecture and Microsoft drive the personal computer market, not Apple. And the fundamental reason for it is consumer choice. Microsoft is not the be all and end all of the market, despite what both you and Bill would like to think.

Thanks for being so predictable, Mac folks.

[/troll]

[Luca]

Okay, fuck this. I knew this was going to happen once Xaqtly, in all his smoldering rage, posted a reply that was utterly predictable and exactly what ryusoma wanted to hear. And ryusoma, screw you for taking the bait. I've had it with this thread.