Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Drew hit is again on exactly what the issue is, distrust. Lack of trust.
It all boils down to that no matter what your political persuasion. People aren't getting their shots because they don't trust "x". Feel free to replace "x" with whatever fits for their situation. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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I'll accept that. But is the correlation primarily because of their political persuasion, or just the fact that the crisis is most severe in big, dense cities?
This is a complicated problem, and what I see is a lot of simple-minded blaming of the other side. Quote:
And yes, the idea that this is a man-made thing, not a regular virus, has been one of the big incentives to get the vaccine on the conservative side. Quote:
In terms of the Military Industrial Complex, there are lots of Christians with concerns, some going for far as to withhold taxes as a matter of conscience. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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I think the initial lie: "Masks don't work" (when in fact officials were just trying to keep supplies focused on first responders) did an incredible amount of damage in public trust. Here in Canada, government assurances that blood clots from Astrazeneca wasn't a real issue, and then advising people to mix vaccines without any real studies to back it up, have everyone second-guessing government announcements. |
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Sneaky Punk
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While I agree that many mistakes have been made by the government of Canada, flipping, flopping and all, I also realize some of it comes with the territory of dealing with a quickly evolving situation. Does that absolve them of blame? No. Then again opposition’s stance was to literally do nothing at all, and keep doing things as normal, maybe for just a few months, but it might have been longer. That would have been the wrong approach as well. Nobody is without blame if you look at it that way.
I for one expect people to make mistakes, and be wrong sometimes. It’s called being human. What I don’t like is people who can never admit to being wrong. In all the years I’ve followed politics (around 30 years now), I have not seen a government lie about something and come clean about it later, not one. If I voted based only on one group or another’s mistakes, none of them would qualify for my vote. I for one will not vote based on individual things that happened just due to COVID, but based on stances on all issues. I stopped caring who the party leaders are a long time ago, they are all self-centred narcissists anyway. But back to COVID trust issues. I don’t think any of us can change other peoples minds, all we can do is present what we know, and let them make choices based on that. Sometimes people just need to have a little faith and realize the whole world isn’t out to get them, we are just little peons, nobody really cares about us that much. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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About 6 months ago I decided that Dr. Fauci needed to step out of the spotlight.
It's not because he's made any mistakes (mask-gate is another conservative destabilization effort, like Benghazi). It's not because he's politically motivated (Fauci has been discussing these same issues for decades, long before Covid). The reason why Fauci needs to step out of the spotlight is because conservatives were successful in turning that spotlight away from Covid and onto him. And no man exists without vanity. Every field of human endeavor is riddled with ego. Science is a field that values proof over puffery, but that's more in the long run. Up close, in the midst of short term battle, there's plenty of personal reputation-polishing and aggrandizement. Celebrity is where it's at! And the shit we're facing needs messaging that is greater than any one man. Don't get me wrong, we still need Fauci. He just needs to remove himself from the focus. Because Delta Plus is coming. .. |
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However, vaccination rates do seem politically correlated, and maybe, just maybe, people like Carlson sowing doubt about the vaccine have something to do with that. Quote:
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But yes, people who are more consistent in their small-government beliefs exist. They seem rather drowned out by "we want small government and the government is bad except for where we believe only the government can save us from impending doom" folks, though. |
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Public health messaging isn't about "lies". It's about tradeoffs between: what's risky, what's economically tenable, etc. |
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Sneaky Punk
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It’s how some people decided to interpret what was said. Even I felt that they lied, until I reflected on it just now. The initial message from Heath officers here in Canada was that people don’t need surgical masks because they don’t protect you from the virus. It’s not a lie it’s true, masks don’t stop you from getting COVID. Masks only help reduce the chance of the wearer spreading it, but it doesn’t stop it. I don’t see any lie in that message as a result. It’s easy to make a statement say something it’s not.
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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Does this mean that people claiming the virus isn't airborne last year were lying? No. Were they telling a falsehood? No. Were they giving advice on the basis of the then credible science? Yes. Honestly, the public needs to grow up. Scientists do not know the future. We're pretty good at telling you where the hard limits of our knowledge are; but these come across as coded speech. If a scientist tells you they think something is true: it means they're fairly certain given the data. If they tell you they know something is true: it's, for all intents and purposes, true. These statements have different confidence levels. Yet the public thinks they mean the same thing. This is partially the fault of the scientists, mostly the fault of the policy gurus who decide with bravado that the public cant deal with doubt, and substantially the fault of a public that is cowed in the face of any technical knowledge. That's not the scientists fault: we honestly try to bring actual knowledge to the public, and get ignored when we start actually describing what we know. |
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The trick is compacting that down into "should you get a mask?". Which isn't easy regardless, but when you know so little about the virus on top of that, it's almost impossible to do perfect messaging. |
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Sneaky Punk
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Not taking science classes in school more seriously is likely one of the biggest regrets of my life, as someone in the horticulture field now I find biology/natural sciences and such fascinating. Of course my dad being a science teacher made me want to avoid it, again not logical I know. I should take some now. |
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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Yeah, we always go the opposite way of our parents, at least in our younger, know-it-all days where we want nothing to do with the family business, traditions, occupational/career paths, etc.
Off-topic (click to toggle):
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
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For me I never did anything for or against my parents. I never cared if they were proud or worried. I honestly never wanted them involved in my life, and so they weren’t. This is commonly a recipe for disaster — I had child psychologists wonder aloud why I didn’t display heightened criminality of other children in my position. I blame the good fortune of having people who were not family show genuine, if not care, interest in what I was doing. These relationships in early youth probably preventing me from taking a much darker path. Long story short: don’t hit children, and rebellion is in the eye of the beholder… |
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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My contribution to the current 3rd Wave meme, taken at a wedding reception about 4 years ago.
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9" monochrome
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 🇦🇺
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Veteran Member
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so after 68 million days of being covid free hobbiton succumbs to covid lockdown. Wee hobbitses running scared
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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Are Mandatory Vaccines Coming?
Late this afternoon Atlanta's annual Labor Day weekend mega-nerdfest announced that it will now require attendees to provide proof of vaccination or proof of a negative Covid test within 72 hours of the beginning of the event, which happens soon. You might imagine the bedlam happening in the comments section of their Facebook post tonight. The event is still going to draw tens of thousands of attendees, posing a super duper opportunity for a spike, but I halfway believe that the holdout anti-vaxxers might not come back for several years in protest of this "affront". People who don't believe in vaccinations are throwing up all sorts of outlandish protests, including outraged cries that mandatory vaccinations are a violation of HIPAA laws (they apparently are not). It's just a damned mess out there. One interesting tidbit that I noticed today. The go-to medical person for the State of Georgia said that they will not be pursuing state-directed mandates for nursing home workers, but she did encourage private companies to pick up that mantle. Since she has been the Governor's right-hand expert on Covid since last year, it makes me wonder whether she is speaking as herself in her capacity as a healthcare chief, or if she's quietly articulating the future methodology of the Governor in encouraging private business to mandate vaccinations. ... |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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I don't get the push for mandatory vaccinations here. Maybe some people just like authoritarianism because it requires less thinking.
Ontario is on track right now to have 82% of our 12+ population vaccinated. So it's a very conservative guess that our current vaccination efforts will peak at around 85%. When the FDA/Health Canada certify that the vaccines are approved, and no longer 'experimental' (expected in the next couple months), I think the last bastion of holdouts will fall and we'll hit 90-92% at a minimum. By the end of the year, we'll likely be coming up on getting the vaccine in pill form, which will again increase uptake significantly. Again, at least 95%, conservatively speaking. So why is there this push for vaccination-by-force-of-law? I think some people are just enjoying their newfound power. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
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Or it's because we want to get this shit over with and we're tired of being asked to empathize with people who get their medical information off YouTube?
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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My state has been offering vaccinations to the public since the beginning of the year. Less than 50% of our citizens are vaccinated. Our ICUs are full of Covid patients. My unvaccinated friends still talk about "deep cleanings" as if it's transmitted by touch. This nerd convention draws 80k+ people on a regular year. Even at 1/3rd normal size, it will provide ripe pickings for a virus with an R0 approaching chicken pox. It's one thing to force people to do things to prevent them from hurting themselves, but when they can act as carriers to harm others? When an act some define as "freedom" (but really isn't, like attending a car show or a football game or a sci-fi convention) presents a clear case of potential public harm, you've got yourself an opportunity to implement "enhanced" safety measures. Requiring enhanced security measures sounds sensible until you change the word "required" to "mandated" and then folks climb up on a chair and scream. ... |
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*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
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Mandated vaccinations will never happen for this. Best way to get maximum participation is do what Live Nation and now some sporting teams are doing and requiring vaccination cards or 72 hour negative test. A lot of people on the fence would jump on board.
Die young and save yourself.... @yontsey |
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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Well the truth is, absent an actual passport, a lot of the people are just going to create fake vaccination cards. Until that weakness is solved, proof of vaccination is down to trust.
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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Mr. Vieira
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
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We’re never getting out from under this. I realize/accept this now. I’m gonna invest in a mask factory. But also open a biker tavern in Sturgis.
Cover/exploit both ends. I’ll make money from both “the sky is falling” folks and the Alex Jones Fellation Brigade. I can’t lose! |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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I love you! |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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Secondly, the U.S. is never going to get to where Canada is on vaccinations. And if we can't get it done at 90+% participation, you might as well give up now. The French are already in the streets protesting. All mandating vaccines/ID cards is going to do is start another serious round of protests that will bitterly divide communities, families and workplaces. And I don't think America can afford more division and bitterness right now. If you feel the vaccinations aren't effective enough or are wearing off, go get a third shot. Or keep wearing a mask in public. But shutting down the entire economy and barring people from society to avoid a virus that stats show the vaccinated are largely protected from, is a really Biden way of doing things. This should be good. How is my comment on authoritarianism ironic? |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
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a) The French protest all the time. It's like their version of golf.
b) 70% of the eligible population in the US are vaccinated. I don't think all of the remaining 30% have held off for ideological reasons—people are lazy, or don't think it's worth, or they're afraid of side effects forcing them to take time off. So let's say half the remaining population are anti-vaxxers. Why should we put up with them for the sake of avoiding division? Why is it on those who've been doing the right thing to coddle them? We don't let 15% of the population drive around drunk off their ass just because they claim it's their freedom. Moreover, giving in won't heal a single damn division. It will further embolden an already-dangerous reactionary element that hasn't been told to fuck off nearly enough. |
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